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Vader, Unleashed getting out of hand????
https://www.swmgamers.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=793		 Page 2 of 3
Author:  emr131 [ Sat Oct 13, 2007 9:53 pm ]
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It is without a doubt that I can see vast powercreep happening with this mini. Some may not like the thought, but really, the 50 points you get with this Vader is just a bit more then the 50 points you get with melee in previous sets.

So, I tossed him on 5-10 points undercosted, but I have *no doubt* there will be a time when nobody will play this Vader because future powercreep would have evolved this figure to overcosted.

Come on, buy the latest set you guys, you need to stay at the razor's edge in power.
Author:  Sithborg [ Sat Oct 13, 2007 9:55 pm ]
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I would hardly call this vast powercreep. I hardly see this guy obsoleting Vaders that haven't been obsoleted already.
Author:  Wedge772 [ Sat Oct 13, 2007 10:15 pm ]
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Really not seeing how this piece is going to be so over-used. Sure, he's the man on Korriban, but elsewhere? You're not going to get that 1st turn LT5 on any other map, unless your opponent is incredibly stupid in setting up their squad. Past the 1st turn, he's a great R2 Astromech counter, but not much more than that (again, unless your opponent isn't paying attention).

Played a test game with this Vader yesterday, he dropped before I could get a single LT5 off. On the Rancor Pit map, opponent played smart and never gave me the opportunity to use it. Pulled off 1 Force Grip 4 before Vader was killed off (Luke CotF with Charging Fire. OK, opponent got lucky with rolling natural 20s on the Flurry Attack, but still...). Vader probably should have done better than he did, but it was nowhere near "broken" or even undercosted. I vote right on the money.
Author:  Menoths Fire [ Sun Oct 14, 2007 1:38 am ]
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the sky is falling! the sky is falling!

:roll:
Author:  Lil Green Dude [ Sun Oct 14, 2007 1:59 am ]
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If I were not playing on Korriban, I would not choose this Vader over Vader, IC. His Force powers will not go into affect that often, and other than that he is just a so-so attacker. He is not all that and a bottle of jawa juice, he is just a one-trick tauntaun.
Author:  billiv15 [ Sun Oct 14, 2007 4:46 pm ]
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dnemiller wrote:
I think he is a little undercosted myself


Based on what system of costing? On old melee like Vader SL? Then probably. But based on the JWM's costing - I think its spot on.

He can probably handle about 2 jwms on his own but certainly no more than that. And even 2 might be a challenge if they roll high for saves and attacks.

We know the new costing system has gone into effect in this set with melee base off the JWM. We also know the force powers were to be powered up in this set as well. I think Vader is pretty well costed in that light.
Author:  thejumpingflea [ Sun Oct 14, 2007 5:19 pm ]
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I think that this Vader will be great when complimented by high damage w/o force figures. My 200 point Swiss Army will have him. 140 HP with a 23 defense is a lot to chew threw and the force sense helps the SC's greatly.
Author:  punxnbutter [ Sun Oct 14, 2007 10:01 pm ]
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This'll take some time to see if the cost is out of line. My initial reaction is yes, but seeing what the other force wielding characters have will really determine that answer. Honestly I do want to see the Jedi become more powerful for their cost. They're the backbone of the whole storyline.
Author:  NickName [ Mon Oct 15, 2007 2:08 am ]
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Quote:
It is without a doubt that I can see vast powercreep happening with this mini. Some may not like the thought, but really, the 50 points you get with this Vader is just a bit more then the 50 points you get with melee in previous sets.


He's very similar in stats and abilities to the 53 point Vader CotS.

The Dark Armor is really nice. Being a Unique follower in Imperial squads isn't much of a plus so CotS's CE is pretty sweet too. The Force Powers are kind of a wash. There are times where the Ripo and Deflect are going to pay off more than Throw. And Grip 40 and Grip 10 are kind of a wash to me. That leaves Renewal as the difference, as well as the 3 points. Not so much "powercreep" to me considering melee is going through another intentional adjustment in costing.
Author:  Jughead [ Mon Oct 15, 2007 3:43 am ]
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I think you mean Vader, Imperial Commander, NN. But what you're saying is about in line with the actual CotS mini as well. You get +1 defense with Unleashed. There are times when Dark Armor is better than Deflect and times when it's better to have Deflect.

Being a follower with the Empire, as you say, doesn't really benefit him too much. Both Palpy's CE affects both types of Vaders (followers & commanders), Gov. Tarkin's is only commanders and Thrawn's ally swap.

So they're pretty much on par with each other, CotS and Unleashed Vader. Both doing something different and you're likely to have a totally different squad when you pick one of the two. It's not so bad having options. :)
Author:  emr131 [ Mon Oct 15, 2007 5:57 am ]
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NickName wrote:
Not so much "powercreep" to me considering melee is going through another intentional adjustment in costing.


You say potato I say power creep. Intentional Adjustment in Costing!? What is this, a PR statement?
Author:  DarkLordVerjal [ Mon Oct 15, 2007 6:45 am ]
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dreadtech wrote:
He is about right. Most Jedi will be in this sort of point & power range from now on.

Every set that come out we get member complaining, The games now broken.
What a load of *********************** ( put in your own words).
I remember this same argument about THRAWN, VADER JH, JWM, DARTH BANE, EXAR KUN, about SUPER STEALTH and so on.
Has the game broken down? No it has not.
Every set changes the game Universe did as did COTF & BH's, this set is no different. You need to adapt your game accordantly.

What make this Vader powerful is he's high defence and the fact he has no CE. But he is not the first character to have 23 defence and they did not brake the game.

This Vader's Force powers will change the game a little but as the powers cost so many force points to use they will see little play after the first few months. Yes you can keep him back to gain force points but can you afford to keep 50 points of your squad back.

I really do not understand this doom issue that happens every time a new set comes out. There are other characters from older sets just as powerful.

Yes some can argue that you can make abusive squads but that's nothing new either. At least wait until you know every ones stats before you star complaining


i agree completely! really fool, you should really calm down. i remember when we saw the spoilers for A&E, "omg, WTF! Luke cotf-obi-yoda-chargin, omg, sooo broken, wtf, im sick of this" blah-blah-blah. looking now, luke cotf isnt really a "uber" meta. now VA-ouchy!! my han scoundrel will be FUBAR after a match with him. :(
Author:  LoboStele [ Mon Oct 15, 2007 7:24 am ]
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I think, in comparison to Vader IC and Vader COTS, Vader Unleashed is pretty much right on it. If you play things right, he's going to drop....FAST. It's really no different than Lord Vader even. LV has a bit more damage potential, but once he starts getting hit, he dies pretty quick.

I'm really excited to try this guy out, although I'm quite irritated that the design wasn't set up so that Vader and the Secret Apprentice have a little better synergy. :(
Author:  dvader831 [ Mon Oct 15, 2007 7:41 am ]
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Yeah, about the synergy, though. From my POV, the Apprentice and Vader never work together. Vader tells his Apprentice what needs to be done, and he goes off and does it. No working together. I guess they brought this aspect along to the minis.
Author:  Grand Moff Boris [ Mon Oct 15, 2007 8:16 am ]
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Given that we know stats for a total of 5 out of 60 pieces, it's tough to say for sure, but right now I have to agree with Dean (welcome back btw). 50 points is a bit low for a piece such as this.

It's not just the Vader character itself, it's the faction he's in. This guy is a modern-day B&B gem. Again, without knowing what else is coming for the Imperial, if all I had from FU was the new Vader, this is probably what I would play at 150 points:

50 Darth Vader, Unleashed
37 Grand Admiral Thrawn
25 Stormtrooper x5
20 Admiral Piett
09 Ugnaught Demolitionist x3
08 Mas Amedda


Forget about his force powers for a moment, this Vader is the cheapest beastick version to date for his stats. It's too bad they didn't put him in the new starter set as a promotional piece for the next expansion. (Him and Obi-Wan Unleashed would have been better than what we actually got with a set of all reprints, IMO).

You basically spend the first few rounds building up force, then you end a round by swapping him into position for a LS Throw 5 (or Force Grip 4 if it's more advantageous). Win init, activate Vader for the power strike of your choice, then swap out with Thrawn. For the rest of the round, your surviving Stormtroopers are attacking at +11 for 20 damage each.

The traditional lessons learned in SWM are that melee Force users with high defense (this Vader has 23, on par with SL and JH) and damage negation abilities and Force powers can survive in close range combat situations. As pointed out earlier, the days of Tow Cable movement are over when versing an Imperial team with either this or VSA. Currently, mobile shooters are really the only chance an opponent has of combating this new B&B combo (pieces coming in the new set notwithstanding).

So, the point of all this being that although Vader can only use his Force powers every few rounds, he won't need them much more often than that. In the intermediate rounds, while he's rebuilding his Force level back up, he's beating down in hand-to-hand with his Lightsaber or taking a breather while his Stormtroopers wear down the enemy.

Even in 100 pts., he's going to be tough to deal with. Here's something I tinkered with as an idea over the weekend:

50 Darth Vader, Unleashed
20 ASP-7 x2
15 Stormtrooper x3
08 Probe Droid
06 Ugnaught x2

The Stormtroopers are mainly there to keep attacks off of Vader while he's building up Force. The ASPs help move him around when its not his turn, so he can LS Throw and then get ported to safety. Even with only one ASP, he can grip for 40 and then move away behind a wall to do it all over again.

Once the enemy has closed to melee range, he can just beat them into submission.
Author:  LoboStele [ Mon Oct 15, 2007 9:14 am ]
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That's a good point, Fool. I hope that Obi Uneleashed will be a good match up for him.

However, in comparison to Vader IC, for 3 points less, you are also no longer getting the massive defense boost to the Stormies, and you don't get Riposte and Deflect. Honestly, Vader U reminds me very much of Lord Vader. All offense and no defense. In SWMs, I think offense based pieces should always be costed more aggressively than defensive pieces. Defensive pieces will tend to stay in the battle longer, thus doing damage spread out over time. In Vader IC's case, that means more and more time that stormies are nigh un-hitable (I hate playing against that CE).
Author:  Grand Moff Boris [ Mon Oct 15, 2007 9:36 am ]
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Imagine this 150 pt. scenario:

My proposed B&B vs. Broken Boba or some post-FU variant...

R2 has just towed a JWM up and plans to reach Thrawn on the next round to start beating. I move an unactivated Stormtrooper 12 squares to where he almost has LOS to the targets. Then, I activate Thrawn, and swap my unactivated Vader, who has 8 Force, with the Stormtrooper. Vader activates going up to 9 Force moves to gain LOS to the JWM and uses grip for 40 damage to the JWM.

Next round, I win init, and Vader goes first. He goes up to 6 Force and I LST5 against the JWMs. I need 8's to hit him and 6's to hit R2, and I get 2 tries against each. As long as all 4 hit (which odds are that only 3 of the 4 will most of the time), then R2 is dead and the JWM is standing there with either one less FP (for block) and/or another 20-40 damage. Thrawn activates, swaps, and then my remaining Stormtroopers in close proximity to Thrawn are +11 for 20 damage AND with Force Immunity.
Author:  LoboStele [ Mon Oct 15, 2007 10:04 am ]
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Oh, there's no doubt it could be a nasty combination. It just means we all have to, once again, learn to play differently. That's one of my favorite things about this ever evolving game. Every time a new set comes out, it's like re-learning the game all over again. New powerful squads emerge, new power combos....If things didn't change, we'd all get bored. So, pieces like Vader U that shake things up a bit are pretty cool, IMO. The key is just going to be in proper counting. Just like with Lord Vader B&B. and proper movement.

Although, pieces like Vader Unleashed prove even more why we need maps that give Melee a bit more of an edge. ESPECIALLY in light of the KMG stuff.

Boris' above squad would rule on Mustafar or Geonosis, or probably even Deathstar, but I think it would have a bit more trouble on something like Muunilist or Ruined base. Doors will still cause you headaches.
Author:  emr131 [ Mon Oct 15, 2007 10:06 am ]
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I understand the scenario, but you must ask yourself this: How often is the towed Weapon Master *not* engaged/dead in 7 rounds?

While I think there is powercreep present, I do not see this scenario played out often (in GenCon when I played B&B, I had every Weapon Master dead way before 7 rounds of play (I think Engineer kept his alive the longest)). While I was playing aggressively, as my situation deserved, the JWM will have to advance quickly.
Author:  barzillai [ Mon Oct 15, 2007 10:12 am ]
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I voted "right on the money." I just don't see him getting more than 1-2 big force strikes per game unless you use RS Palpatine, and if you invest 90 points in a combo like that it had better be pretty powerful. Compare the 90-point DVU/Palpatine combo to my favorite 102-point Landspeeder/Leia/Han RH combo, and I guess I don't see a big problem... yet...
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