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For 50 Points, Vader, Unleashed is...
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 9:01 am 
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I think he is accurately costed, to do all of that damage you have to pay 4 or 5 force points, and it'll take a few rounds to charge up those force points, frankly to make the best use of Vader, unleashed you'll have to use RS palps, but even then force grip 4 and lightsaber throw 5 will eat away at the force points very quickly.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 9:31 am 
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I agree! Dark Armor, 23 defense, 140hp...50 points? Force Grip, not 1, not 2, not 3, but 4!

LIghtsaber Throw 5!?! What a stupid ability. Just imagine using that on a huge 1st turn!!!!!!!!!! :twisted: :evil:


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 10:18 am 
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Slightly undercosted based on his stats with Dark Armour.
I still don't think Lightsaber 5 will be a biggie, it's the 40 auto-damage that is powerful. So based on that I voted 'about 5-10 points undercosted.'

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 10:53 am 
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Fool wrote:
Actually under most circumstances it's a total gamebreaker.

Tow cable is done with - you can't risk him wiping out R2 first turn (especially if he wins Korriban map)

And Force Grip 40 is nasty.

I honestly think if you look at him and his stats - it's downright scary.

He should be at least 60 or more IMO.


I wouldn't pay 60 points to use this vader, his force powers cost a lot of force points, with the cost in force he'll only be able to use some of his force powers once or twice in one game. As for his stats, his stats are pretty much the same as Vader, IC with the 23 def, I think Vader Unleashed had 15 attack(correct me if I"m wrong about the attack). And Vader IC costs only 53 points. You can shut down Vader Unleased easily with the SC"s with thrawn. And if Vader gets an auto 40 on someone on korriban, the opponent will probably have some equally nasty shooters, such as bobe bh, Han Scoundrel with A&E leia with Chewy RH as a bodyguard. On Korriban, Vader could get killed quickly.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 11:28 am 
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I think it is too early to tell right now. He has some powerful abilities, but he won't be able to use them that often. I say is cost is about right.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 11:36 am 
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Actually under most circumstances it's a total gamebreaker.


Disagree. You're assuming Korriban and stacked characters, and Vader having Emperor there so he can use this power before Round 3.

That's hardly 'most circumstances'.

And I don't think the 9 point incredibly powerful DOOMBOT tactic or the 8 point incredibly powerful Mas Amedda tactic being a bit threatened is at all bad for the game.

Boba can basically do that same 40 points just as consistantly on Korriban now.

Vader does have some pretty tremendous stats for his cost, but put him in melee with two JWMs and who's coming out on top still? His Force Powers are all he's really got going for him.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 11:42 am 
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I'd honestly use Vader, CotS over him.

Yes, he can do some nasty damage at range, but it'll rarely happen that often. Also, all he has is Dark Armor to defend himself, so he'll go down pretty quick.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 12:04 pm 
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EmporerDragon wrote:
I'd honestly use Vader, CotS over him.

Yes, he can do some nasty damage at range, but it'll rarely happen that often. Also, all he has is Dark Armor to defend himself, so he'll go down pretty quick.


Depends on any CE's that might come out and affect him. I'm honestly pretty disappointed in his lack of synergy with the VA.

Speaking from experience, and without a Boba BH, I can say that 23 Def is nothing to sneeze at. This Vader will fall to melee that can get to him, but like the VA, perhaps his most valuable weapon is the threat he poses which may cause opponents to make tactical errors out of fear for what he might do.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 12:26 pm 
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I'm going to wait and see how he does in games.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 1:36 pm 
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I look at his stats and Force Powers right now this guy is jaw dropping in my opinion and sees the biggest Meta change period in the history of the game IMO.


Back when CS was just about to release people looked at Zam Wessel and saw that Kouhun could do 60 damage from 12 squares away and she had Stealth, and could get +20 attack with Loner and BH. She was going to be rediculous. But it didn't turn out to be the case.

The meta will be shaken up, as it is with every set, but I don't think we've really seen anything revolutionary yet. People wanted competetive Jedi. They're getting their wish. This guy competes with JWMs and Aurra JH and Mara. But he doesn't do too much more than that.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 2:47 pm 
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He is about right. Most Jedi will be in this sort of point & power range from now on.

Every set that come out we get member complaining, The games now broken.
What a load of *********************** ( put in your own words).
I remember this same argument about THRAWN, VADER JH, JWM, DARTH BANE, EXAR KUN, about SUPER STEALTH and so on.
Has the game broken down? No it has not.
Every set changes the game Universe did as did COTF & BH's, this set is no different. You need to adapt your game accordantly.

What make this Vader powerful is he's high defence and the fact he has no CE. But he is not the first character to have 23 defence and they did not brake the game.

This Vader's Force powers will change the game a little but as the powers cost so many force points to use they will see little play after the first few months. Yes you can keep him back to gain force points but can you afford to keep 50 points of your squad back.

I really do not understand this doom issue that happens every time a new set comes out. There are other characters from older sets just as powerful.

Yes some can argue that you can make abusive squads but that's nothing new either. At least wait until you know every ones stats before you star complaining

EDIT: Yes nickname has thought of another character that members of WOTC complained about a lot ZAM. ( post above)

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 2:59 pm 
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Fool wrote:
Okay a few points I'd like to make after some reactions.

1. I don't play competitively (but I have a decent understanding of the Competitive game).
2. I think in light of some of the comments, everyone has brought up some great points. Rob did say the Jedi would be getting some love in this set (I think I read that somewhere) so that's a good thing
3. I can't help my reaction here. I know I should be totally thrilled and excited about this new Vader but I honestly can't bring anything but anxiety really. I wonder in my head right now....

"Has the game passed a Fool like me by?"

I wonder if FU is the set that ends my collection of SWM and brings this to the end of the precipice. I honestly don't know, without seeing the rest of the set but as of right now I'm sceptical on the Huges and I really look at Vader's abilities and think he's pretty unstoppable. Bigger, more complex maps actually make him better (Force Renewal) and combined with the Emperor he's going to be a beast - Especially with his High D and HP.

So having said alll this - all the competive players (Nick, Dragon, Xanthan) have probably the best perspectives on this but if I look at his stats and Force Powers right now this guy is jaw dropping in my opinion and sees the biggest Meta change period in the history of the game IMO.

Edit- I agree I was hoping for some good Synergy with Vader/Apprentice - that's another balll drop IMO


By Fool
""Has the game passed a Fool like me by?"

Well only you can answer that but i would wait untill you have seen all character stats and play tested them before you make that dission.

You say you do not play tournaments well neither do i, I honestly do not think that matters and besides friendly games are more fun anyway IMO.
As you now have this characters stats you can play test him against others similar characters BOBA BH, EXAR KUN, YODA, see how it go's. But remember that the rebels have some good characters this set as well still to come.
At the end of the day i suppose we all have characters we do not like i guess this is yours.

By Fool
" agree I was hoping for some good Synergy with Vader/Apprentice - that's another balll drop IMO"

Well that we can agree on. :(

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Last edited by dreadtech on Sat Oct 13, 2007 3:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 3:20 pm 
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Fool wrote:
Dread,

Your perspectives are awesome and I certainly appreciate them! You've made some fantastic points and all in all I'm really feeling better about Vader. Talk about Knee jerk reactions hey!?!?

You've made some stellar points and you're right - there has been almost the same poitns brought up in virtually every set in relation to specific minis.

Having said all that Vader, Palpatine and Tw'lek BG will be tough to beat in 100 if you ask me.

Great banter my friend!!


Hay i glad you feel a little better about Vader now. But your reaction is understandable i think i was much the same when i saw BOBA BH had mobile, twin and disintegration.
But hes a good counter to a lot of others so i got used to him.

"Having said all that Vader, Palpatine and Tw'lek BG will be tough to beat in 100 if you ask me."

Yes it will but having not seen the stats for the new rebels, Yoda( the one with Force Defence) has to be the best defence against this team at the moment . He is cheep enough to have fair a mount of good back up.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 3:30 pm 
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Fool I kno exactly how you feel man, I remember when I first saw lord Vaders stats and abilities, I think I threw up the first time I read them LOL :D Sure LV makes up one of the top squads but he can be countered as can Vader unleashed. Theres a lot of hype about him now but it will die down and im sure once he gets a decent amout of use we will see hes not as over powered as he sounds at this point.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 3:35 pm 
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dreadtech wrote:
What make this Vader powerful is he's high defence and the fact he has no CE.


I wouldn't really consider Vader being a follower an asset, as currently, the only 2 CEs a follower Vader can benefit from that the commander Vader's can't are the Chagrian Mercenary Commander's and the Rodian Black Sun Vigo's.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 3:41 pm 
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EmporerDragon wrote:
dreadtech wrote:
What make this Vader powerful is he's high defence and the fact he has no CE.


I wouldn't really consider Vader being a follower an asset, as currently, the only 2 CEs a follower Vader can benefit from that the commander Vader's can't are the Chagrian Mercenary Commander's and the Rodian Black Sun Vigo's.


I should have said potentially powerful for that Pacific comment. As most CE affect followers. So thats 1 to you :)

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 4:00 pm 
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EmporerDragon wrote:
dreadtech wrote:
What make this Vader powerful is he's high defence and the fact he has no CE.


I wouldn't really consider Vader being a follower an asset, as currently, the only 2 CEs a follower Vader can benefit from that the commander Vader's can't are the Chagrian Mercenary Commander's and the Rodian Black Sun Vigo's.


You forgot about RS Palpatine. Unless by Vader benefiting from ce's you meant ce's that followers benefit from.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 4:09 pm 
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Xanthan wrote:
You forgot about RS Palpatine. Unless by Vader benefiting from ce's you meant ce's that followers benefit from.


Both follower Vaders and commander Vaders can benefit from Palpatine's CE.
The only two CEs a follower Vader can benefit from that a commander Vader cannot are the ones I previously mentioned.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 6:59 pm 
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I voted "Right on the money" but I actually really wanted to vote "wait and see," as I don't know how the rest of the characters will interact with the new Vader.

I don't play competitively either and have to agree with dreadtech that casual games are more fun anyway.

I think this Vader will end up being fairly costed but I remember when the JWM first came out and we saw the stats for him. For me, my initial reaction was probably as vexed as you were about Vader, Unleashed.

We're coming up on three sets on and I still don't like the JWM and my friends and I like to use a house rule that he counts as Cin Drallig so we can only field one of him. But patience is usually rewarded with SWM and there'll be something to boost my unique Jedi.

Wish the Vader Unleashed had some kind of better synergy with the SA as well. He's better with Palpatine, for goodness sakes...


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 9:18 pm 
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I am failing to see how 40 damage is something to get worked up about. Keep in mind, he still has to actually make the attacks (that 1 can happen at the most inoppurtune times). Smart players will not group up when he starts getting up there in FP, or Palps is around. One thing to see is how cover works with attacks. I know it doesn't affect the choosing of the targets, but it doesn't say anything about the attacks. People seem to be forgetting that his powers are EXPENSIVE. Yes, Palpatine will help, but Vader will drain him quickly.

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