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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 5:50 pm 
Imperial Dignitaries
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Xanthan wrote:
Actually Vader should be better than the melees such as Luke, cotf since WOTC Rob said that the melees are going to be more aggresively costed in the newer sets and TFU is one of the sets where the melees will be better. I think Vader Unleashed is a great figure, but there are counters to Vader, Unleashed, such as characters with force cancel, Nom bombs won't have problems with vader, and shooters that can constantly deal out 40 or more damage are all going to work great against Vader.


So does this mean that all old melee is going in the trashheap, since new melee will be "more aggressively costed"? That's a virtual declaration of what I'm most worried about...

And as for your assertion that folks will have no problems with Vader... if you can deal out 40 constantly, you'll deal fine with most things... though this Vader can shoot back :)

The point is he's a hybrid... a melee with all the firepower of most similar melees, but with the ability to throw out a massive ranged shot, which other melees do NOT have. Seems pretty fair to me that this should cost more than... oh... nothing.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 5:54 pm 
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Rob has been stating since CS that Melee was originally miscosted. I think he is just about close to the perfect way to make Melee COMPETITIVE. Again, I don't see too much powercreep between this and the past 3 sets.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 6:06 pm 
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Grambo wrote:
Xanthan wrote:
Actually Vader should be better than the melees such as Luke, cotf since WOTC Rob said that the melees are going to be more aggresively costed in the newer sets and TFU is one of the sets where the melees will be better. I think Vader Unleashed is a great figure, but there are counters to Vader, Unleashed, such as characters with force cancel, Nom bombs won't have problems with vader, and shooters that can constantly deal out 40 or more damage are all going to work great against Vader.


So does this mean that all old melee is going in the trashheap, since new melee will be "more aggressively costed"? That's a virtual declaration of what I'm most worried about...

And as for your assertion that folks will have no problems with Vader... if you can deal out 40 constantly, you'll deal fine with most things... though this Vader can shoot back :)

The point is he's a hybrid... a melee with all the firepower of most similar melees, but with the ability to throw out a massive ranged shot, which other melees do NOT have. Seems pretty fair to me that this should cost more than... oh... nothing.


Vader can shoot back, but not many times, 4 force points is a lot and will take a while to regenerate those force points. Since the melees are going to be agressively costed I imagine WOTC Rob will probably make new version of some of the older melee figs in future sets but only time will tell. Frankly I like the changes that Rob is doing, its great that some more melee pieces other than the JWM's become cometitive.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 6:50 pm 
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Sithborg wrote:
Rob has been stating since CS that Melee was originally miscosted. I think he is just about close to the perfect way to make Melee COMPETITIVE. Again, I don't see too much powercreep between this and the past 3 sets.



I agree. The level of powercreep is very slight now. Melee WAS overcosted and weak, but now it's better.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 8:05 am 
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Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if the Imperial Unleashed figs become gatekeepers. You will have to make sure your squad can beat them when building, but I don't think they will become the new meta. (watch me eat those words later).

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 3:31 pm 
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I'm not seeing it too much with Vader. Vader seems more of a counter (a much better counter than Han, Rogue). Maybe the Apprentice, but Electroshock has had issues in the past that I don't see the Apprentice getting around too much.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 5:26 pm 
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Quote:
So does this mean that all old melee is going in the trashheap, since new melee will be "more aggressively costed"?


No, it means that the vast majority of the old melee are already "in the trashheap", and the only alternatives with the new ones are A) continue to cost melee the same and let most the new ones join them or B) revise the costing of melee so most of the new ones don't join them.

They've chosen B.

(And hopefully they will continue the trend of creating commanders that revive older subpar figures.)


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:01 am 
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Well I play tested the new pieces last night at the LGS.

First one player believed that the Light Saber throw 5 is worded incorrectly on Kids World. So we played with the standard range of 6 for this.

150 Map yavin 4 sanctuary
Vader UL
VA
Boba E
Stormtrooper x2
Ugy

VS

G.Mace
Aurra
Quinlan Vos Inf
Ugyx2

Aurra gets of shots off at the VA because of unforseen LOS. Vader grips Vos and VA lites him up with lighting 4. Boba chimes in hitting Vos once and Missling G. Mace and Aurra once as well as taking shots at Aurra. Stormies get combined fire shot on Vos and Vader finishes him off. VA gets a hit on mace and gets wacked. vader and Boba double team Mace and he goes down. Boba has Full HP and Vader is about half. Vader retreats to charge then FG4 aurra and boba takes her out.

200 same map
Thrawn
Vader UL
VA
Peitt
Elite Stormy x2
Stormy x2
Ugy

VS

Landspeeder
Aurra
Han STA
Princess Liea
Wookie FF x3
Lobot - Bringing Lando DS

Elites take shoots at landspeeder and hit forcing him to deflect. Then Landspeeder takes out Elites. VA takes out 1 Wookie FF. Vader gets beamed in to FG4 the land speeder. Meanwhile VA has taken some hits from Aurra. VA get of super lighting on teh Landspeeder and Han. Has to get beamed out b/c on 30 or so HP left. This leaves Vader with no Force to wack on the LandSpeeder. Landspeeder Crits twice Liea Crits once and allows speeder to shoot again. That pretty much ended the game.

After playing and chatting about it if the Kids world Lightsaber throw is in fact worng and ther is a range of 6 then Vader is not as great. If it is right it totaly changes the way he is played. Against a good shooter squad they can get lit up b/c no defensive force powers to prevent it. Granted they both have good Def. numbers.

The way we played I feel that they have to have a powerful shooter to back them up. If Vader can indeed throw where he wants that will cahnge things.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:36 am 
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you know there are was to give the diplomat damage the equation.
han,rh+diplomat=invincible diplomat who can shoot. :twisted:


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:52 pm 
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Is this Vader undercosted? Absolutely. Game Breaking? Not at all. He has good defense, but only Dark Armor to back it up. Double Attack isn't great for 50. His powers are good - but too expensive to really be counted on.

Powercreep?....... I want to wait to see some of the Huge and non-Imperial melee figs before I decide. If Vader is undercosted by as much as 10 pts (according to some) I'm hoping that the Rebel melee figs (Luke, Unleashed, Obi-Wan Unleashed, VARedeemed, Master Kota) are more undercosted (seeing as how Rebel heroes have historically been slightly undercosted) for their cost.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:55 pm 
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jet_trooper wrote:
you know there are was to give the diplomat damage the equation.
han,rh+diplomat=invincible diplomat who can shoot. :twisted:


Why does everyone think that Diplomat makes a figure invincible? I already have developed several ideas about how to kill it, as well as several ideas about how to use it (mostly as gambit grabber and mobile cover).


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:30 pm 
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headache62 wrote:
Is this Vader undercosted? Absolutely. Game Breaking? Not at all. He has good defense, but only Dark Armor to back it up. Double Attack isn't great for 50. His powers are good - but too expensive to really be counted on.

Powercreep?....... I want to wait to see some of the Huge and non-Imperial melee figs before I decide. If Vader is undercosted by as much as 10 pts (according to some) I'm hoping that the Rebel melee figs (Luke, Unleashed, Obi-Wan Unleashed, VARedeemed, Master Kota) are more undercosted (seeing as how Rebel heroes have historically been slightly undercosted) for their cost.
True.

Though I love when the cries of "BORKEN!!" come with every preview, lol.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:00 pm 
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"Broken" and "POWERCREEP" are popping up more often with this set. A bit annoying.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 12:21 am 
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Every piece that is previewed is compared to another piece at the same price. If the person doing the comparing thinks the new piece is the better of the two then the new piece is broken. If the old piece is better than the new one than the new one is a waste of space in the set.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 6:42 am 
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seriously, i cannot wait for this! lately we have had too much of the same, now we will get some POWERFUL force users that arent 'Da' UbEr cHeAp'. mara jade (as much as i loved the mini, and as much as nr needed it, shes broken without question) we finally get some force users that are powerful-and fair. vader's app. is AMAZING but he has to charge before he is UBER, so its ok. IMO mara's talons/B&B/nom bombs/san will still be obsticals to overcome with strategy and building. but with variaty comes backdoors to beat them. as Obi-Wn would say
"My Speciality"
so, personally-WOOT for rob & the changes.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 6:57 am 
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"mara jade (as much as i loved the mini, and as much as nr needed it, shes broken without question)"
Say what!? Mara is no where near broken. Powerful to be sure, but she goes down really fast in most cases. The new Vader is more "broken" than Mara ever was.

@ Sithborg - I agree. We have seen about 4 figs and the doomsayers are jumping all over them as broken. I REALLY dont want to hear it after today. I believe Erik said preview 3 (todays) was going to be even more than the first two. Look for an Uber good fig today.....that and a lot of whining about powercreep. (And then everyone remember back to the cries of the JWM taking over the game)

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 7:15 am 
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Sithborg wrote:
"Broken" and "POWERCREEP" are popping up more often with this set. A bit annoying.

homer_sapien wrote:
Every piece that is previewed is compared to another piece at the same price. If the person doing the comparing thinks the new piece is the better of the two then the new piece is broken. If the old piece is better than the new one than the new one is a waste of space in the set.


Eh....I don't really see it happening any more than any other set. Granted, I've only been in the game since COTF, but there are always "Broken" and "Powercreep" screamers out there everytime. And so far, every time it's been shown that, yeah, some of the new pieces create new metas or new gatekeepers, but overall it isn't as bad as everyone thinks. Boba BH for instance. He ruled the game for a little while, but pretty much everyone has started to figure out that there are ways to beat him. Sure, he's still good, but not nearly as 'broken' or 'powercreeped' as everyone thought a year ago.

Sithdragon13 wrote:
@ Sithborg - I agree. We have seen about 4 figs and the doomsayers are jumping all over them as broken. I REALLY dont want to hear it after today. I believe Erik said preview 3 (todays) was going to be even more than the first two. Look for an Uber good fig today.....that and a lot of whining about powercreep. (And then everyone remember back to the cries of the JWM taking over the game)


I'm pretty positive that Preview 3 (which hopefully we get both 2 and 3 today) will be Revan. And I think in order to satisfy all the fan-boys, I think Rob will have made him a pretty good piece. I'm not so worried about cries of Broken or Powercreep. I'm more worried about all the whiners that feel like Rob didn't make Reven MORE powerful. :P

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 7:22 am 
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Yeah, I'd like to see Revan and some of the other Force-users in the Set (Brood, Kota, Ti, the funny piece that's #2/60).

edit: and Obi-Wan. Because it's Obi-Wan.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 8:26 am 
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Fairly certian #2 is more game stuff, so I am hoping for Brood and the AT-ST. Sounds like #3 will be Revan. I would love to see one of the new Rebel pieces as well.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 9:17 am 
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Sithdragon13 wrote:
"

I believe Erik said preview 3 (todays) was going to be even more than the first two.


we've only had 1 preview. Surely the 3rd will be next week?


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