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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 5:07 pm 
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I have no problems with Vader, Unleashed, I think his point cost is pretty accurate since his force powers cost a lot then vader can only use grip or lightsababer throw only a few times each game. As for the arguement of Korriban, Korriban is just a horrible map, Vader Unleashed is good against SS on that map anyways, and vader can't even grip people with stealth since you'll have to have vader use force sense first.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 5:30 pm 
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My biggest concern with the new Vader is that, simply, everything we've seen from FU appears to be following the same trend as Magic did... escalation of power. If the new stuff is simply flat better than the old stuff, I believe the designers have blown it.

Admittedly, too early to know... but I'm definitely worried. My opinion, the new Vader is definitely too good for 50 points... or too cheap, depending on perspective.


If the new stuff were flat out better than the best stuff in the game that would be true. If it's just better than the subpar pieces in the game, then it's much less true. This Vader is clearly better than 55 point Dark Jedi at any of the tournement point levels. But he isn't much better than 53 point Imperial Commander--there are cases where his CE is going to be more valuable than Unleashed Dark Armor and both sets of Force Powers have their pros and cons. Seems about right.

This Vader leaps out at me as being very solid. The Apprentice, good, but not great and really will need support from his squad to be top tier. There seems to be some potential here to shift the metagame, but I don't see these figures dominating it.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 5:32 pm 
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Any miniture that has it's strength in force abilties that cost 4-6 force points is not that strong, despite what they may do. You just can't trust somthing that is so expenseive, even with a force battery.


Is this power creep? I don't think so. Without the insane force powers, this Vader is just like Vader, COTS, only with 1 more defense point, and dark armor. So if you consider that power creep, than I geuss so. It is very, very slight. I don't believe that this Vader is the best example of power creep. Just look at the storm commando compared to the ARC trooper. That's the best example of power creep I can think of.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 5:38 pm 
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billiv15 wrote:
Playtesting will tell the story, and I am with Fingers on this one. We wont hear complaints about it in a couple of months. It is pretty well balanced in my opinion.


Well, I don't think we have any proof on the effect on meta either way at the moment... but on paper, he's pretty damn good for 50. However, I do think we can do some comparisons with existing characters off his abilities. First, compare him with the regular Darth Vader at 47... more defense, dark armor, force renewal, and some serious ranged firepower.

More to the point, compare him with every other Force Renewal equipped figures who actually have an attack (not Yoda or Palpy)... his closest equivalent is Luke... and while luke's UTF gives him tremendous punch potential, he has no ranged attack and he's WAY weaker (-3 ATK, -30 HP, etc).

I guess I'm saying I think I have some evidence on my side saying he's undercosted at 50, purely based on comparisons with existing models.

Anyway... we'll see how the whole set spins out... but I remain worried.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 5:43 pm 
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SirStevee wrote:
Any miniture that has it's strength in force abilties that cost 4-6 force points is not that strong, despite what they may do. You just can't trust somthing that is so expenseive, even with a force battery.


I disagree... even if you use it only once, it has tremendous ability to constrain the battlefield by its threat... that alone is powerful.

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Is this power creep? I don't think so. Without the insane force powers, this Vader is just like Vader, COTS, only with 1 more defense point, and dark armor. So if you consider that power creep, than I geuss so. It is very, very slight.


Apples to Oranges. One has Force Renewal, tremendous ranged potential, and no CE (so benefits from CEs). The other is a Melee Commander, valuable mostly for his CE.

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I don't believe that this Vader is the best example of power creep. Just look at the storm commando compared to the ARC trooper. That's the best example of power creep I can think of.


Now that I agree with... the SC is also undercosted. In fact, that is why my concern is so great... WotC has a LONG history of this with Magic... and I really don't want to see SWM fall victim to it.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 5:46 pm 
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Grambo wrote:
billiv15 wrote:
Playtesting will tell the story, and I am with Fingers on this one. We wont hear complaints about it in a couple of months. It is pretty well balanced in my opinion.


Well, I don't think we have any proof on the effect on meta either way at the moment... but on paper, he's pretty damn good for 50. However, I do think we can do some comparisons with existing characters off his abilities. First, compare him with the regular Darth Vader at 47... more defense, dark armor, force renewal, and some serious ranged firepower.

More to the point, compare him with every other Force Renewal equipped figures who actually have an attack (not Yoda or Palpy)... his closest equivalent is Luke... and while luke's UTF gives him tremendous punch potential, he has no ranged attack and he's WAY weaker (-3 ATK, -30 HP, etc).

I guess I'm saying I think I have some evidence on my side saying he's undercosted at 50, purely based on comparisons with existing models.

Anyway... we'll see how the whole set spins out... but I remain worried.


Actually Vader should be better than the melees such as Luke, cotf since WOTC Rob said that the melees are going to be more aggresively costed in the newer sets and TFU is one of the sets where the melees will be better. I think Vader Unleashed is a great figure, but there are counters to Vader, Unleashed, such as characters with force cancel, Nom bombs won't have problems with vader, and shooters that can constantly deal out 40 or more damage are all going to work great against Vader.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 5:50 pm 
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Xanthan wrote:
Actually Vader should be better than the melees such as Luke, cotf since WOTC Rob said that the melees are going to be more aggresively costed in the newer sets and TFU is one of the sets where the melees will be better. I think Vader Unleashed is a great figure, but there are counters to Vader, Unleashed, such as characters with force cancel, Nom bombs won't have problems with vader, and shooters that can constantly deal out 40 or more damage are all going to work great against Vader.


So does this mean that all old melee is going in the trashheap, since new melee will be "more aggressively costed"? That's a virtual declaration of what I'm most worried about...

And as for your assertion that folks will have no problems with Vader... if you can deal out 40 constantly, you'll deal fine with most things... though this Vader can shoot back :)

The point is he's a hybrid... a melee with all the firepower of most similar melees, but with the ability to throw out a massive ranged shot, which other melees do NOT have. Seems pretty fair to me that this should cost more than... oh... nothing.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 5:54 pm 
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Rob has been stating since CS that Melee was originally miscosted. I think he is just about close to the perfect way to make Melee COMPETITIVE. Again, I don't see too much powercreep between this and the past 3 sets.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 6:06 pm 
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Grambo wrote:
Xanthan wrote:
Actually Vader should be better than the melees such as Luke, cotf since WOTC Rob said that the melees are going to be more aggresively costed in the newer sets and TFU is one of the sets where the melees will be better. I think Vader Unleashed is a great figure, but there are counters to Vader, Unleashed, such as characters with force cancel, Nom bombs won't have problems with vader, and shooters that can constantly deal out 40 or more damage are all going to work great against Vader.


So does this mean that all old melee is going in the trashheap, since new melee will be "more aggressively costed"? That's a virtual declaration of what I'm most worried about...

And as for your assertion that folks will have no problems with Vader... if you can deal out 40 constantly, you'll deal fine with most things... though this Vader can shoot back :)

The point is he's a hybrid... a melee with all the firepower of most similar melees, but with the ability to throw out a massive ranged shot, which other melees do NOT have. Seems pretty fair to me that this should cost more than... oh... nothing.


Vader can shoot back, but not many times, 4 force points is a lot and will take a while to regenerate those force points. Since the melees are going to be agressively costed I imagine WOTC Rob will probably make new version of some of the older melee figs in future sets but only time will tell. Frankly I like the changes that Rob is doing, its great that some more melee pieces other than the JWM's become cometitive.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 6:50 pm 
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Sithborg wrote:
Rob has been stating since CS that Melee was originally miscosted. I think he is just about close to the perfect way to make Melee COMPETITIVE. Again, I don't see too much powercreep between this and the past 3 sets.



I agree. The level of powercreep is very slight now. Melee WAS overcosted and weak, but now it's better.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 8:05 am 
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Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if the Imperial Unleashed figs become gatekeepers. You will have to make sure your squad can beat them when building, but I don't think they will become the new meta. (watch me eat those words later).

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 3:31 pm 
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I'm not seeing it too much with Vader. Vader seems more of a counter (a much better counter than Han, Rogue). Maybe the Apprentice, but Electroshock has had issues in the past that I don't see the Apprentice getting around too much.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 5:26 pm 
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So does this mean that all old melee is going in the trashheap, since new melee will be "more aggressively costed"?


No, it means that the vast majority of the old melee are already "in the trashheap", and the only alternatives with the new ones are A) continue to cost melee the same and let most the new ones join them or B) revise the costing of melee so most of the new ones don't join them.

They've chosen B.

(And hopefully they will continue the trend of creating commanders that revive older subpar figures.)


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:01 am 
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Well I play tested the new pieces last night at the LGS.

First one player believed that the Light Saber throw 5 is worded incorrectly on Kids World. So we played with the standard range of 6 for this.

150 Map yavin 4 sanctuary
Vader UL
VA
Boba E
Stormtrooper x2
Ugy

VS

G.Mace
Aurra
Quinlan Vos Inf
Ugyx2

Aurra gets of shots off at the VA because of unforseen LOS. Vader grips Vos and VA lites him up with lighting 4. Boba chimes in hitting Vos once and Missling G. Mace and Aurra once as well as taking shots at Aurra. Stormies get combined fire shot on Vos and Vader finishes him off. VA gets a hit on mace and gets wacked. vader and Boba double team Mace and he goes down. Boba has Full HP and Vader is about half. Vader retreats to charge then FG4 aurra and boba takes her out.

200 same map
Thrawn
Vader UL
VA
Peitt
Elite Stormy x2
Stormy x2
Ugy

VS

Landspeeder
Aurra
Han STA
Princess Liea
Wookie FF x3
Lobot - Bringing Lando DS

Elites take shoots at landspeeder and hit forcing him to deflect. Then Landspeeder takes out Elites. VA takes out 1 Wookie FF. Vader gets beamed in to FG4 the land speeder. Meanwhile VA has taken some hits from Aurra. VA get of super lighting on teh Landspeeder and Han. Has to get beamed out b/c on 30 or so HP left. This leaves Vader with no Force to wack on the LandSpeeder. Landspeeder Crits twice Liea Crits once and allows speeder to shoot again. That pretty much ended the game.

After playing and chatting about it if the Kids world Lightsaber throw is in fact worng and ther is a range of 6 then Vader is not as great. If it is right it totaly changes the way he is played. Against a good shooter squad they can get lit up b/c no defensive force powers to prevent it. Granted they both have good Def. numbers.

The way we played I feel that they have to have a powerful shooter to back them up. If Vader can indeed throw where he wants that will cahnge things.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:36 am 
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you know there are was to give the diplomat damage the equation.
han,rh+diplomat=invincible diplomat who can shoot. :twisted:


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:52 pm 
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Is this Vader undercosted? Absolutely. Game Breaking? Not at all. He has good defense, but only Dark Armor to back it up. Double Attack isn't great for 50. His powers are good - but too expensive to really be counted on.

Powercreep?....... I want to wait to see some of the Huge and non-Imperial melee figs before I decide. If Vader is undercosted by as much as 10 pts (according to some) I'm hoping that the Rebel melee figs (Luke, Unleashed, Obi-Wan Unleashed, VARedeemed, Master Kota) are more undercosted (seeing as how Rebel heroes have historically been slightly undercosted) for their cost.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:55 pm 
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jet_trooper wrote:
you know there are was to give the diplomat damage the equation.
han,rh+diplomat=invincible diplomat who can shoot. :twisted:


Why does everyone think that Diplomat makes a figure invincible? I already have developed several ideas about how to kill it, as well as several ideas about how to use it (mostly as gambit grabber and mobile cover).


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:30 pm 
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headache62 wrote:
Is this Vader undercosted? Absolutely. Game Breaking? Not at all. He has good defense, but only Dark Armor to back it up. Double Attack isn't great for 50. His powers are good - but too expensive to really be counted on.

Powercreep?....... I want to wait to see some of the Huge and non-Imperial melee figs before I decide. If Vader is undercosted by as much as 10 pts (according to some) I'm hoping that the Rebel melee figs (Luke, Unleashed, Obi-Wan Unleashed, VARedeemed, Master Kota) are more undercosted (seeing as how Rebel heroes have historically been slightly undercosted) for their cost.
True.

Though I love when the cries of "BORKEN!!" come with every preview, lol.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:00 pm 
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"Broken" and "POWERCREEP" are popping up more often with this set. A bit annoying.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 12:21 am 
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Every piece that is previewed is compared to another piece at the same price. If the person doing the comparing thinks the new piece is the better of the two then the new piece is broken. If the old piece is better than the new one than the new one is a waste of space in the set.

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