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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 7:07 am 
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Menoth's Fire wrote:
emr131 wrote:
The apprentice is a piece that many fans will use. It is a piece that some will try desperately to make into a competitive one. It will take some major support to make him into one, and in the end, he will just flat out fail...

emr131 wrote:
I think it would really help if certain people did not make opinions as facts or try to push their opinions as the correct ones or other logical impossibilities. I have been guilty of it time to time, others have been as well.

It is very tough to swallow when these statements are made, and I really do enjoy tearing them apart. I know I would prefer if you tossed in statements that make it clear it is your opinion and not some massed response (the word I is your friend on these kinds of statements)...

Again, you have no idea whether or not there will be synergy in this set that will push this piece (or Leia, or any others) into top tier meta, much less future sets. You could easily end up being correct, but to make such definitive statements is absurd.


Wow, you quoted a lot, but you missed my last sentence on this subject...

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Time will tell how wrong I am.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 7:19 am 
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emr131 wrote:
Menoth's Fire wrote:
emr131 wrote:
The apprentice is a piece that many fans will use. It is a piece that some will try desperately to make into a competitive one. It will take some major support to make him into one, and in the end, he will just flat out fail...

emr131 wrote:
I think it would really help if certain people did not make opinions as facts or try to push their opinions as the correct ones or other logical impossibilities. I have been guilty of it time to time, others have been as well.

It is very tough to swallow when these statements are made, and I really do enjoy tearing them apart. I know I would prefer if you tossed in statements that make it clear it is your opinion and not some massed response (the word I is your friend on these kinds of statements)...

Again, you have no idea whether or not there will be synergy in this set that will push this piece (or Leia, or any others) into top tier meta, much less future sets. You could easily end up being correct, but to make such definitive statements is absurd.


Wow, you quoted a lot, but you missed my last sentence on this subject...

Quote:
Time will tell how wrong I am.

That's like saying "You're such an obnoxious, stupid, ugly prick, your mother dresses you funny and I hope you internally combust... no offense."
The tag line at the end doesn't change the preceeding opinions-stated-as-fact. You're doing the same thing with Leia. Without having seen you post such strong opinions againsts such statements, I would simply have chalked it up to more internet doom-saying; but your hypocrisy stabbed me in the heart like one thousand swordfishes.

It's like an intervention; so you can, you know, get better.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 8:03 am 
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Menoth's Fire wrote:
stabbed me in the heart like one thousand swordfishes.


Hahaha, that part made me LOL pretty good. :lol:

Menoth's got a point. We know a total of 4 sets of stats so far. That's 56 more pieces that we still don't know a thing about. So far, the Apprentice's greatest ally would appear to be Emperor Palpatine, which makes absolutely no sense in the frame of the story (logic, I know), so I won't be the least bit surprised to see some other things that will greatly boost him and make him quite the playable piece.

And obviously, he probably won't be a highly competitive 100 or 150 piece, purely because of the quicker nature of those games, and because his point cost keeps you from being able to effectively include any other beatstick. But at 200, it is still so open at that level, that its really quite ridiculous to make any sort of blanket statements about him being unusable. I can guarantee that somebody will find a good build for him. It might not be the best, but it certainly will not "flat out fail".

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 8:47 am 
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I wouldn't be surprised if this Vader has something for him. Of course I wouldn'r be surpised if he didn't, but I could easily see him having a TFU-based mentor-type ability.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 8:49 am 
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Menoth's Fire wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if this Vader has something for him. Of course I wouldn'r be surpised if he didn't, but I could easily see him having a TFU-based mentor-type ability.


Actually, I wouldnt be a bit surprised if he didnt do anything for the VSA. Easily could see it either way.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 8:52 am 
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billiv15 wrote:
Menoth's Fire wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if this Vader has something for him. Of course I wouldn'r be surpised if he didn't, but I could easily see him having a TFU-based mentor-type ability.


Actually, I wouldnt be a bit surprised if he didnt do anything for the VSA. Easily could see it either way.

Yup. The point is: we don't know, right? ;)


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 8:53 am 
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Menoth's Fire wrote:
billiv15 wrote:
Menoth's Fire wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if this Vader has something for him. Of course I wouldn'r be surpised if he didn't, but I could easily see him having a TFU-based mentor-type ability.


Actually, I wouldnt be a bit surprised if he didnt do anything for the VSA. Easily could see it either way.

Yup. The point is: we don't know, right? ;)


we should know on Tuesday - kidsworld preview.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 8:55 am 
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LoboStele wrote:
Menoth's Fire wrote:
And obviously, he probably won't be a highly competitive 100 or 150 piece,

Woah, back up the boat.....I for one see him being fantastic in 100. You run him with the emperor, they can deal 80-90 DAM from range 6 (60-70 on Jedi hunter) and quite possibly activate the character in the process, giving your Vader or Bane a round of nothing. Win init, repeat and run. Even Bane cant kill either in one turn.

I dont care how fast you go, the apprentice will get enough force for one shock, and the emperor can easily get enough to allow him one lightning and a second apprentice shock. With that save being a save 16, the chances are better tahn average that you are going to stun the guy.

Dont count him out in 100pts. Also, remember his counters are not played at 100 save for CS Yoda.

150 remains to be seen. Not likely since Thrawn is big here.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 8:55 am 
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Menoth's Fire wrote:
emr131 wrote:
Menoth's Fire wrote:
emr131 wrote:
The apprentice is a piece that many fans will use. It is a piece that some will try desperately to make into a competitive one. It will take some major support to make him into one, and in the end, he will just flat out fail...

emr131 wrote:
I think it would really help if certain people did not make opinions as facts or try to push their opinions as the correct ones or other logical impossibilities. I have been guilty of it time to time, others have been as well.

It is very tough to swallow when these statements are made, and I really do enjoy tearing them apart. I know I would prefer if you tossed in statements that make it clear it is your opinion and not some massed response (the word I is your friend on these kinds of statements)...

Again, you have no idea whether or not there will be synergy in this set that will push this piece (or Leia, or any others) into top tier meta, much less future sets. You could easily end up being correct, but to make such definitive statements is absurd.


Wow, you quoted a lot, but you missed my last sentence on this subject...

Quote:
Time will tell how wrong I am.

That's like saying "You're such an obnoxious, stupid, ugly prick, your mother dresses you funny and I hope you internally combust... no offense."
The tag line at the end doesn't change the preceeding opinions-stated-as-fact. You're doing the same thing with Leia. Without having seen you post such strong opinions againsts such statements, I would simply have chalked it up to more internet doom-saying; but your hypocrisy stabbed me in the heart like one thousand swordfishes.

It's like an intervention; so you can, you know, get better.


I am predicting the uselessness of figures. As such, at the very end, I tie it all together that I could be very wrong with my prediction. It is absolutely no different from people claiming that they are the end all be all of excellent stats, in the least, I state that I could be wrong.

Anyone want to place a small wager that Vader's Apprentice will *never* be a truly competitive piece (say next year's GenCon VA will not be in a single event winner army)? I will also make the same bet on Leia.

About leia, on this site, this is what I state:
Quote:
The day I take that Leia over others is the same day I take Rogue over any Hans... cold day in Hades.

Yep, my prediction on how I will play her... I won't.

On WotC's forum, this thread here... http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=936730
I echoed my statement here on her. Then I went on to expand on it later.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 9:00 am 
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It just came off as an overall harsh statement, and honestly, an unfounded one at that. Granted, Leia doesn't really do anything that other pieces don't already do (Depa) so it's a little easier to make predictions with her. But Vader's Apprentice is so new and different, and we don't know anything else from the rest of the set, blanket statments that he'll be useless just come off really harsh.

Take a second and imagine if you made those kinds of remarks about Revan on the WotC forums? :P

And Sithdragon, you're absolutely right man. I had figured you could play him with Palps in 100, but I hadn't added up all the factors. I think it would be a tough game against some of the other 100 pt builds, but played correctly, should be competitive. We'll see.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 9:04 am 
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LOL, I just want to run up to Fett BH....
"Evade this you green piece of ***BZZZZT***"

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 9:07 am 
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emr131 wrote:
I am predicting the uselessness of figures. As such, at the very end, I tie it all together that I could be very wrong with my prediction. It is absolutely no different from people claiming that they are the end all be all of excellent stats, in the least, I state that I could be wrong.

Anyone want to place a small wager that Vader's Apprentice will *never* be a truly competitive piece (say next year's GenCon VA will not be in a single event winner army)? I will also make the same bet on Leia.

About leia, on this site, this is what I state:
Quote:
The day I take that Leia over others is the same day I take Rogue over any Hans... cold day in Hades.

Yep, my prediction on how I will play her... I won't.

On WotC's forum, this thread here... http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=936730
I echoed my statement here on her. Then I went on to expand on it later.

*little clappy smiley* I want to applaud you on your pessimism.

OMG! I sound like Klecser...somebody disintegrate me!

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 9:20 am 
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Sithdragon13 wrote:
*little clappy smiley* I want to applaud you on your pessimism.

OMG! I sound like Klecser...somebody disintegrate me!


You are surprised?!


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 9:46 am 
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Sithdragon13 wrote:
LOL, I just want to run up to Fett BH....
"Evade this you green piece of ***BZZZZT***"



Hahahahahahaha. YES! Wanna Twin attack me? OK, I'll take the 5% chance. But there's a 100% chance you're gonna be dead next round. :P

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 9:49 am 
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emr131 wrote:
...Anyone want to place a small wager that Vader's Apprentice will *never* be a truly competitive piece (say next year's GenCon VA will not be in a single event winner army)? I will also make the same bet on Leia...

AH! This is the point. If I roll a die and say: "I will roll a 19 or 20" thereby stating it as though it was a fact, and I do, actually, roll a 19, that does not make the original statement a fact. Even if I know that that particular die is somehow biased towards rolling 19 or 20. Besides, why not add up all of the existing minis that are "in a single event winner army" and check the percentage of all of the minis and you'll see that your bet would be a fool's bet for someone to take. I bet it would be similar to the chances of rolling a 19 or 20 ;)

Besides, "I may be wrong"-style tag lines do not change what you are saying is being stated as fact and you are not using "I" or "IMHO" or any of the little things you say you want others to do to placate your own sensibilities. Again, I wouldn't care in the least if not for your adamant statements deriding the very thing you are doing very frequently these days.

Now we can go back and forth, but I think the validity of my argument is quite clear.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 12:20 pm 
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Menoth's Fire wrote:
billiv15 wrote:
Menoth's Fire wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if this Vader has something for him. Of course I wouldn'r be surpised if he didn't, but I could easily see him having a TFU-based mentor-type ability.


Actually, I wouldnt be a bit surprised if he didnt do anything for the VSA. Easily could see it either way.

Yup. The point is: we don't know, right? ;)


At least we only have to wait until Monday to find out.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 12:33 pm 
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Sithdragon13 wrote:
LoboStele wrote:
Menoth's Fire wrote:
And obviously, he probably won't be a highly competitive 100 or 150 piece,

Woah, back up the boat.....I for one see him being fantastic in 100. You run him with the emperor, they can deal 80-90 DAM from range 6 (60-70 on Jedi hunter) and quite possibly activate the character in the process, giving your Vader or Bane a round of nothing. Win init, repeat and run. Even Bane cant kill either in one turn.

I dont care how fast you go, the apprentice will get enough force for one shock, and the emperor can easily get enough to allow him one lightning and a second apprentice shock. With that save being a save 16, the chances are better tahn average that you are going to stun the guy.

Dont count him out in 100pts. Also, remember his counters are not played at 100 save for CS Yoda.

150 remains to be seen. Not likely since Thrawn is big here.



My Swiss Army Knife says otherwise.

I think that any squad that relies on the Force to do it's damage could never be Tier One just because of the Force Immunity they could run into to.

I think that my Storm Commando and Thrawn squads just got a boost though. No defensive powers and the inability for VA to do a lot of damage without force means that a +13 for 30 a shot will shred him to pieces.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 12:35 pm 
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emr131 wrote:

I am predicting the uselessness of figures. As such, at the very end, I tie it all together that I could be very wrong with my prediction. It is absolutely no different from people claiming that they are the end all be all of excellent stats, in the least, I state that I could be wrong.

Anyone want to place a small wager that Vader's Apprentice will *never* be a truly competitive piece (say next year's GenCon VA will not be in a single event winner army)?


I completely agree here.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 1:57 pm 
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Am I the only one who finds it odd that VSA doesn't have Jedi Hunter??? I mean his freaking job is to kill Jedi not just hunt them kill them. They could have at least given him some ability against Jedi or compensated with the Force power Crash an Effing Star Destroyer Into You, Your Allies and Your Planet. The last part was sarcasm I think I'm not really sure.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 2:13 pm 
Really Cool Alien from a Cantina
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Fool wrote:
He was trained by General Grievous, JH early in his childhood

:D

A very good point. Now that we know this lets speculate as to who this apprentice could be.


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