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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 10:12 am 
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LoboStele wrote:
I do agree with Menoth some, but I see the points of everybody else. I kinda wish they would do more balanced stuff from set to set, instead of swinging wildly back and forth from year to year. Of course, in terms of gameplay and the meta-game, it's probably better for the sales of SWM if they release lots of a particular faction at one time, and boost that faction to the top of the meta. Then everybody wants to buy those pieces and be at the top. Then, next year, they swing it a different direction. If the sets were more balanced between factions, then the meta might not change as often, thus causing the competitive gamers to buy less product on a regular basis.

Just some other food for thought.

I do not believe they are even putting that much thought into it. Besides, I dare say that it is the collectors and kids that drive sales, not the competitive players, per se.

As an excercise, anyone familar with WotC's other games I want you to imagine:

A) a magic set with no Blue cards.
B) a DDM set with no Lawful Evil.

That's what we have here from a game-play perspective.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 12:05 pm 
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Don't get me wrong. I'd love every set to include every faction even if the lesser ones for a set only get 1-3 pieces. I was just saying that taking the amount of factions in previous sets into consideration the number we got in FU wasn't such a crazy low number that it would have caused me to doubt Mabel.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 12:32 pm 
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homer_sapien wrote:
Don't get me wrong. I'd love every set to include every faction even if the lesser ones for a set only get 1-3 pieces. I was just saying that taking the amount of factions in previous sets into consideration the number we got in FU wasn't such a crazy low number that it would have caused me to doubt Mabel.

My doubt was cuumulative, not based on any one thing. Also, I guess it was based on an eternal wellspring of hope inside of me that lessons are learned and that each set will be progressively better-balanced than the one that preceeded it. Apparently I'm a sucker.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 1:18 pm 
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Menoth's Fire wrote:
LoboStele wrote:
I do agree with Menoth some, but I see the points of everybody else. I kinda wish they would do more balanced stuff from set to set, instead of swinging wildly back and forth from year to year. Of course, in terms of gameplay and the meta-game, it's probably better for the sales of SWM if they release lots of a particular faction at one time, and boost that faction to the top of the meta. Then everybody wants to buy those pieces and be at the top. Then, next year, they swing it a different direction. If the sets were more balanced between factions, then the meta might not change as often, thus causing the competitive gamers to buy less product on a regular basis.

Just some other food for thought.

I do not believe they are even putting that much thought into it. Besides, I dare say that it is the collectors and kids that drive sales, not the competitive players, per se.

As an excercise, anyone familar with WotC's other games I want you to imagine:

A) a magic set with no Blue cards.
B) a DDM set with no Lawful Evil.

That's what we have here from a game-play perspective.


I think you should say this on the WotC board (if you haven't already). This is the best argument for the mismanagement of faction design per set.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 1:49 pm 
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I think another factor for the Rebel/Imperial heavy year is that it is the 30th anniversary year for Star Wars. Every product line they've released this year is very OT heavy. Marketing probably trumped game balance on some slots throughout the year, but I expect the slots to fill next year. It doesn't help right now, but could be a factor.

Now, if only the Walmarts around here would throw posters in the dumpsters. lol


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 3:41 pm 
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Considering what we've heard about next year, I'm not too worried. Of course, you actually have to wait for it...

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 7:20 pm 
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I think I agree with Menoth on this one. It's almost like pieces that were left over from A&E spilled into this set at the expense of other factions. I really with there were some Seps in this set.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 7:26 pm 
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I also agree with menoth, Though I like the rebel and imperial figs, they didn't have to put the main focus on those two factions, wouldn't be that hard to cut back on the rebels and some of the imperials to put in some OR, Sith, and Mandos.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 7:42 pm 
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Boris wrote:
I think you should say this on the WotC board (if you haven't already). This is the best argument for the mismanagement of faction design per set.

Ah, but then you have Nickname's argument of Fringe = Everything (or artifacts for the MtG reference).


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 9:00 pm 
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emr131 wrote:
Boris wrote:
I think you should say this on the WotC board (if you haven't already). This is the best argument for the mismanagement of faction design per set.

Ah, but then you have Nickname's argument of Fringe = Everything (or artifacts for the MtG reference).


I've never heard him say that (or read, whatever), but my counter-argument, as someone who actually plays Magic, is that not every set has artifacts, but so far every set has had cards of each color.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 9:54 pm 
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Yes, I have heard that Nickname argue that every faction gets a boost with Fringe.

And should we really be comparing it to a game that has double the available slots per set?

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:44 pm 
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Sithborg wrote:
Yes, I have heard that Nickname argue that every faction gets a boost with Fringe.

And should we really be comparing it to a game that has double the available slots per set?

Regardless of slots, it is clear that color-balance is taken very seriously in Magic because it is vital to the playability and diversity of the game.

and I, too, have heard the Fringe argument and of course I very much disagree with it; it is obvious that as Fringe beefs the neglected factions, it also beefs the over-represented factions equally or even more so depending on the specific mini/faction combo in question. Did BF,BH enhance Sith more than Imperials? I think not.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:22 pm 
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I have made the point that Fringe = pieces for every faction because that's exactly what they are. The smallest faction in the game to me right now is 60+ figures, not 6. Some just have a smaller number of exclusive figures.

If you (due to your own reasons) play Mandalorians exclusively, then FU gives you 15 new pieces to work with, not zero.

I find the fact that other factions can use them too is inconsequential to the argument of how many new pieces the Mandalorians are getting with Force Unleashed.

Whether the faction gets better or worse in top-level competetive play based on these pieces is completely unknown at this point as you don't have the stats for any of the 15 new Fringe pieces. That's an argument for after the stats are known. It is entirely possible that one of these Fringe figures could do much more for the Mando faction than an exclusive, but subpar, figure.

(EDIT: Several "I" inserted based on emrtheory :))


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:54 pm 
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NickName wrote:
I find the fact that other factions can use them too is inconsequential to the argument of how many new pieces the Mandalorians are getting with Force Unleashed.


Because you have overlooked (ignored is the better word but harsher) this point:

menoths fire wrote:
it is obvious that as Fringe beefs the neglected factions, it also beefs the over-represented factions equally or even more so depending on the specific mini/faction combo in question.


I will go a step further to say that I believe most of the Fringe pieces are tested through with the heavier-maintained core factions in mind. It's not necessarily intentional, it's that each set is balanced unto itself. I don't think Rob or any of the other small handful of designers have time to go back and test every possible combo from all the older sets. There may be some of that, but it's very slight.

Fringe pieces aren't designed as part of their own faction. They're meant to round out the other factions that DO carry design restrictions. What this means is that they're not going to be the best pieces just to bump the weaker factions. They're going to be the best pieces, those that are, because of the way they complement or are complemented by the specific characters in the other factions that, again, DO carry restrictions. What this means is that if you're relying on Fringe characters to boost what you're doing in the faction you're trying to play, you're probably going to accomplish more by simply putting that Fringe character(s) in a faction with better representation and more choices. I recall the LFL Representative said as much during the GenCon seminar when I asked if the Legacy set was going to mean more factions. His reply was they don't want factions with only 1 or 2 characters.

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Whether the faction gets better or worse in top-level competetive play based on these pieces is completely unknown at this point as you don't have the stats for any of the 15 new Fringe pieces. That's an argument for after the stats are known. It is entirely possible that one of these Fringe figures could do much more for the Mando faction than an exclusive, but subpar, figure.


Tanner you are a smart guy; I don't understand why you're being so combative about this topic. No one is saying the "core" factions shouldn't have the most pieces; we're not even saying they shouldn't have the best options. Make no mistake, Force Unleashed is the set, in terms of Rebel grunts and Hoth-battle support, that should have come last year. However, there's no reason for Stormtrooper, Snowtrooper, 2 Lukes, 2 Hans, and an Elite Hoth Trooper when it means ZERO representation for the other factions like OR, Mando, etc.

I had the same problem with A&E. 14 reprints and way too many variants of Luke and Han. I might also point out, since no one else has said it, that when they do that many variants of a piece in 1 set, it prevents some of the variants from really seeing much playtime in particular groups. When I field a squad with Han, I almost always go for Stormtrooper Armor. As a result, I have had little play time to test out Han on Tauntaun. I want to, but I haven't.

I believe it also influences point values between the variants moreso than it would have if they had each come out one at a time over the next 5-7 sets.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:33 pm 
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Quote:
Because you have overlooked (ignored is the better word but harsher) this point:


Not at all. I'm aware of it, I just don't think it's necessarily true.

For example, the Aqualish Assassin helps the Vong (Nom Bombs) much more than it helps the Empire. The Viper Droid is much better with Seperatists (BDO, Wat) or OR (Sentinels) than it is with the Rebels. There are other cases where a Fringe piece has superior synergy with a particular faction.

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I don't understand why you're being so combative about this topic. No one is saying the "core" factions shouldn't have the most pieces; we're not even saying they shouldn't have the best options. Make no mistake, Force Unleashed is the set, in terms of Rebel grunts and Hoth-battle support, that should have come last year. However, there's no reason for Stormtrooper, Snowtrooper, 2 Lukes, 2 Hans, and an Elite Hoth Trooper when it means ZERO representation for the other factions like OR, Mando, etc.


My intent is in no way to be combatative about that. I agree. My preference is that minor factions get minor support in sets. I have said this before. My point is that the set is not "bad" just because it doesn't meet that desire. You have to judge the set on what it is, not what it isn't. If these 60 figures are fun, diverse, balanced and add interesting new gameplay elements then it's a good set regardless of which factions are in it.

Judging the set on the faction breakdown alone is premature.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:40 pm 
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NickName wrote:
...You have to judge the set on what it is, not what it isn't. If these 60 figures are fun, diverse, balanced and add interesting new gameplay elements then it's a good set regardless of which factions are in it...

Then we have a different definition of the word "diverse."


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 10:58 am 
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Menoth's Fire wrote:
1) Han in Carbonite




That is the reason I did not believe it. I am curious what his stats will be like because this, to me, is almost a "Jump the Shark" kind of thing.

Han in Carbonite?!?!?


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 12:52 pm 
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Personally I can't wait to see the stats of the Hansickle. I've seen a few good custom ideas for him and I'm really curious to see what Rob came up with.

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