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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:42 am 
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Fool wrote:
I totally disagree - in a galaxy basically run by the Force, the Jedi/Sith whatever (force users) should have the balanced skewed in their direction.

Logically speaking of course.

This is a game and needs to be as playable as possible. Period.

Also, jedi were gunned down mercilessly by a swarm of clones as represented in the game by clones being much cheaper per mini. Why bother making other minis if jedi will always be better for their cost?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 12:34 pm 
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Fool wrote:
Menoth's Fire wrote:
This is a game and needs to be as playable as possible. Period.


I totally agree - but that doesn't mean that the Jedi can't be skewed statistically speaking. Some might argue that they are already (Force Powers) but they should be even more so (maybe just a little) as they are the warriors of the galaxy

Menoth's Fire wrote:
Also, jedi were gunned down mercilessly by a swarm of clones as represented in the game by clones being much cheaper per mini. Why bother making other minis if jedi will always be better for their cost?


One might argue that the Clones were under the "influence" of Sidious - much like the argument that the Empire and Stormtrooper immediately lose the advantage when Vader throws Palpatine down the shoot.

I'm not saying that they need to NERF other minis - just that they should really be the focal point of the Game to a degree.

There are many of us for whom the jedi (light or dark) are not the inspiration for our love of Star Wars. I think it is clear you are biased. I know many people who think that Boba and his fellow 'hunters are the end-all-be-all of the SW galaxy and they would probablly argue that it is in their favor toward which the statistics should be skewed. I, of course, have a trooper fetish. However, I believe troopers should be like tofu: not very good ontheir own, but if you sauce them up with CEs, they could be pretty pimp. Individually, the jedi should slaughter the majority of indiviual models (except maybe BHs) on a one-on-one basis, but their individual point costs should reflect that. That way a couple of ballin' jedi would be a match for, say, a bunch of troopers with a couple of the right CEs thrown in. That is game balance and it is that toward which the designers should strive.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 12:42 pm 
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I understand that people enjoy jedi, but you can't just give them a chance to avoid all types of dmg for free, that's broken. There's no way about it.

And let's look at some of the pieces we are talking about here. The Mando Blademaster has parry, ooh, what a scary piece from a well supported faction. I think not.

Boba BH is what you are talking about here, not Duros Explorers.

The fact that Boba has evade is the reason people will use to argue that Jedi should have either Parry or Evade.

Or that Block Deflect should be free.

I agree with Menoth's Fire in principle here. People like Jedi and Jedi are much better than most other pieces in this game already, so I would contend their stats are already skewed in their favor.

The simple fact is that people are constantly looking for ways to make this game simpler for them so that they can play it better, and when you ask for something like this, its really weak.

The simple fact is that Jedi work just fine right now, they don't need this at all


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 12:42 pm 
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I believe troopers should be like tofu: not very good on their own, but if you sauce them up with CEs, they could be pretty pimp.

LOL, OMG....I cant believe you just compared star wars to pimped out tofu! .

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 12:54 pm 
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Tofu Troopers! Nice analogy!

While I agree "in theory" that jedi *should* be able to deflect, the problem lies more in the implementation. I fully support 75% or more jedi having either block or deflect printed on their card. However, there needs to be design space available for jedi who either are choosing not to be defensive, or have not learned how to be so. Each mini is only a snapshot and a fraction of each character. It is perfectly reasonable to assume that at the particular point in time that the force user is being modeled after does not have lightsaber deflect or block.

Also, I disagree with the point that it is 'easier' to deflect with a lightsaber than it is to evade. First, blaster bolts don't move at the speed of light, and seem to move even slower than bullets based on the movies. Second, it is perfectly reasonable for a character to be agile and willing to duck and cover like a madman to avoid being shot. Now, if I had a lightsaber, I absolutley would NOT duck, dive and cover. I would be far to concerned about cutting off one of my own precious limbs with such a dangerous stunt. I would not, however, be concerned about accidentally shooting myself as I lunged for the floor. I guess I could use the force to guide my lightsaber so I don't disembowel myself, but doesn't that defeat the purpose - gaining an ability that doesn't cost force to use.

Basically, I believe that if a character has an active lightsaber, they better be using the force to do anything risky.

For fun, try doing some acrobatics with one of the plastic lightsabers and see how often we touch the plastic part, or accidentally hit a friend.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:06 pm 
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Lord_Nihl wrote:
I understand that people enjoy jedi, but you can't just give them a chance to avoid all types of dmg for free, that's broken. There's no way about it...

It is not "for free" if you pay more points for a mini because it has Evade. :roll: Paying more for something is the exact opposite of what "free" means.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 2:23 pm 
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Fool wrote:
Menoth's Fire wrote:
This is a game and needs to be as playable as possible. Period.


I totally agree - but that doesn't mean that the Jedi can't be skewed statistically speaking. Some might argue that they are already (Force Powers) but they should be even more so (maybe just a little) as they are the warriors of the galaxy

Menoth's Fire wrote:
Also, jedi were gunned down mercilessly by a swarm of clones as represented in the game by clones being much cheaper per mini. Why bother making other minis if jedi will always be better for their cost?


One might argue that the Clones were under the "influence" of Sidious - much like the argument that the Empire and Stormtrooper immediately lose the advantage when Vader throws Palpatine down the shoot.

I'm not saying that they need to NERF other minis - just that they should really be the focal point of the Game to a degree.


I've got to agree with Fool on this one. The Force Users should be "better" than the non-Force Users.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 2:37 pm 
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Lord_Nihl wrote:
Evade? No

Deflect and Block as SAs? No

The Jedi need to be balanced, not unbalanced.

the choice between taking dmg and the chance to not take dmg should have to cost something.

What are you spending force on then? Moving faster and rerolls? There needs to be some kind of consequence for their ability to use the force.


Have to totally disagree with you here. Jedi should have these not necessarily both but should have it one or the other as a SA.

But yes it should be coasted into the character. I would prefer the Jedi to have a lower defence and have these as SA than have a high defence and have these as force powers.
The simple truth is that most high defences are inadequate now with such high attacks & CE that add to it.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 2:58 pm 
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Fool wrote:
I totally agree - but that doesn't mean that the Jedi can't be skewed statistically speaking. Some might argue that they are already (Force Powers) but they should be even more so (maybe just a little) as they are the warriors of the galaxy


Then everyone ends up playing Jedi vs Jedi and there's no point in even having some factions. If the game is skewed, even slightly, to favor Jedi over all others, then there is no reason to ever play anything but Jedi, unless you enjoy losing. Every faction should be able to hold it's own in competitive play, with or without Jedi.

It's sort of what happened in the various Star Wars role-playing games. The earliest games gave Jedi's all kinds of advantages over other character types, so consequently everyone wanted to play the Jedi. Jedi's could do everything other characters could do, and usually better, so the other classes were considered subpar and only for diehard role-players who didn't care about having an effective character.

So in later editions, they tried to make the other classes good. They have cool abilities. Not Force Powers, but cool abilities that are as good as Force Powers. One of those abilities is Evasion. I think you have to be a Scoundrel to get it, maybe a Scout. And of course, the SWM is based on the Star Wars RPG/d20 system, so a lot of that stuff carries over. And that's why Lando has it, but Yoda doesn't. Lando has a lot of level in Scoundrel, Yoda has a lot of levels in Jedi.

Another thing to consider is this: A Jedi Padawan and a Stormtrooper have the same Defense (16). The Stormie is wearing the best mass-produced light battle armor in the Universe. The Jedi Padawan is wearing a cloth shirt.

Something's wrong there, right? Obviously a cloth shirt doesn't provide the same protection that the best light battle armor in the universe! So some of that is the Padawan's ability to dodge attacks, but some of it is also his ability to deflect and parry with his lightsaber. That's where his Defense is coming from.

So like Darth Vader, Jedi Hunter has a defense of 23. Some of this is his bad ass armor. Some of this is his ability to hold up his hand and absorb the energy of a blast. Some of this is his ability to deflect shots with his lightsaber. And then, on top of all that, he can choose to spend a Force Point to deflect or block a shot.

That's why Jedi don't all need parry/evasion, and should spend force points to use force deflect or force block if they have it on their card. Because the ability of every Jedi to deflect and block some shots is already calculated into their high Defenses, and giving them the actual ability on top of that would unbalance the game.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 3:03 pm 
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krayt_dragon wrote:
That's why Jedi don't all need parry/evasion, and should spend force points to use force deflect or force block if they have it on their card. Because the ability of every Jedi to deflect and block some shots is already calculated into their high Defenses, and giving them the actual ability on top of that would unbalance the game.


Great post and well said. This is the critical point in this discussion.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 3:16 pm 
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Really then how do you explain that a lot of NON jedi also have high defences.
Take KI & MSG.
Both have the same defence MSG has far more abilities Also has Evade.
The only thing Ki has is 30 extra hit point. Give the choice i would have 60 hit point and evade over 90 hit point and no evade.
This is just 1 example there are dozens more.
Even if you have block or defect you only get this once per turn. Evade and Parry every single time. Even force renewal does not compare to that.
My MSG last a lot longer on my teams than any Jedi costing about the same.

Edit directed at the 2 posts before fool's post.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 3:33 pm 
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dreadtech wrote:
Really then how do you explain that a lot of NON jedi also have high defences.
Take KI & MSG.
Both have the same defence MSG has far more abilities Also has Evade.
The only thing Ki has is 30 extra hit point. Give the choice i would have 60 hit point and evade over 90 hit point and no evade.
This is just 1 example there are dozens more.
Even if you have block or defect you only get this once per turn. Evade and Parry every single time. Even force renewal does not compare to that.
My MSG last a lot longer on my teams than any Jedi costing about the same.

Edit directed at the 2 posts before fool's post.


It helps if you play the Star Wars RPG. Characters add their heroic levels to their defense, so high level heroic characters can run around without armor and not get shot to pieces.

Otherwise you'd end up with the problem that West End Games Star Wars had: if you weren't a Jedi, you had to wear power armor to survive blaster fire. But if the PCs, who are Rebels, are wearing suits of power then it doesn't feel very "Star Warsy." Han Solo runs around in a shirt and pants, but he never gets shot. That's Star Wars. So higher level characters get better defense.

But compare Han Solo to the Bespin Guard. They're wearing equivalent amounts of clothing, probably even have similar dexterity scores -- Han's is probably better by a small degree, maybe a +3 to their +2. But Han's defense is a way above theirs. This is because Han is a high level heroic character, and the Bespin Guards are low level non heroic characters. So they get a 12 Defense (the base of 10 plus 2 for the dexterity), and Han gets an 18 (base 10, plus 3 for dexterity, plus 5 for level).

If they didn't do it that way, then Han would suck. And Lando would suck. And Leia would suck. And you'd end up with a Star Wars game where the worst characters to play are the the most iconic characters.

Also I don't know who KI and MSG are.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 3:37 pm 
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Fool wrote:
Actually given the amount of physical abuse Jedi take without even taking a scratch, they should probably have Higher Defense and lower attack IMO since they are trained to "never use the force for attack".


The most dangerous dudes are always the ones trained never to attack. Leanred that from chop socky movies.

Also: Never, ever, ever kill the loved ones of callow youths from the rural countryside (i.e. farmboys/peseants). No matter what they're fighting, no matter what the odds, no matter how much you stack the desk against them, they always win. Always.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 3:44 pm 
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Certain Jedi should have access to evade and parry, but i would never put both on one Jedi and even then i would only give a select few, aka-most powerful, these abilities. Why shouldnt a Jedi have the chance to stop every attack. I think it would be awesome to have two Jedi at the end of a game going against each other and watch all of the parrying going on. It would be a great recreation of the movies.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 3:47 pm 
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krayt_dragon wrote:
dreadtech wrote:
Really then how do you explain that a lot of NON jedi also have high defences.
Take KI & MSG.
Both have the same defence MSG has far more abilities Also has Evade.
The only thing Ki has is 30 extra hit point. Give the choice i would have 60 hit point and evade over 90 hit point and no evade.
This is just 1 example there are dozens more.
Even if you have block or defect you only get this once per turn. Evade and Parry every single time. Even force renewal does not compare to that.
My MSG last a lot longer on my teams than any Jedi costing about the same.

Edit directed at the 2 posts before fool's post.


It helps if you play the Star Wars RPG. Characters add their heroic levels to their defense, so high level heroic characters can run around without armor and not get shot to pieces.

Otherwise you'd end up with the problem that West End Games Star Wars had: if you weren't a Jedi, you had to wear power armor to survive blaster fire. But if the PCs, who are Rebels, are wearing suits of power then it doesn't feel very "Star Warsy." Han Solo runs around in a shirt and pants, but he never gets shot. That's Star Wars. So higher level characters get better defense.

But compare Han Solo to the Bespin Guard. They're wearing equivalent amounts of clothing, probably even have similar dexterity scores -- Han's is probably better by a small degree, maybe a +3 to their +2. But Han's defense is a way above theirs. This is because Han is a high level heroic character, and the Bespin Guards are low level non heroic characters. So they get a 12 Defense (the base of 10 plus 2 for the dexterity), and Han gets an 18 (base 10, plus 3 for dexterity, plus 5 for level).

If they didn't do it that way, then Han would suck. And Lando would suck. And Leia would suck. And you'd end up with a Star Wars game where the worst characters to play are the the most iconic characters.

Also I don't know who KI and MSG are.


Non of that is relevant at all. you are not comparing like for like a 5 point character to a 25/48 point character.
I was compering 2 characters with the same cost value.
Ki = KI -Adi-Mundi
MSG=Mistryl shadow guard
You are not.

The simple truth is a Jedi who cost 50 point should be equal and have the same surviviability as a shooter who cost 50 point. One should not be better than the other. At the moment that is not the case. FU mite change that for the Jedi of this set. but will not efect Jedi from older sets.
New CE rarely help Jedi usually only help shooters or non Jedi melee. So older Jedi are unlikely to improve. Where as older shooters are.

As for "Characters add their heroic levels to their defense"

I am sure Jedi do as well or similar.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 3:54 pm 
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"Certain Jedi should have access to evade and parry, but i would never put both on one Jedi"

I can agree to that, maybe not both. one or the other.

But a Jedi with 23 defence may not need it but a Jedi with 17 to 20 mite. Having block or deflect that can be used one per turn and usually on 2 or 3 times total does not cut it. That is If they have block or deflect in the first place. which a lot do not.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 4:03 pm 
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dreadtech wrote:
Non of that is relevant at all.


Actually, it's very relevant. The miniatures game is based on the role-playing game, so if you understand how the role-playing game works you get an idea of how the miniatures work.

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you are not comparing like for like a 5 point character to a 25/48 point character.


That's true, but I had no idea what you were comparing since you didn't name the characters, so I compared two characters who are dressed roughly the same but of obviously different levels.

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I was compering 2 characters with the same cost value.
Ki = KI -Adi-Mundi
MSG=Mistryl shadow guard
You are not.


I think you're a bit off when you say that the "only thing" Ki has on the MSG is +30 HP. Anticipation is a much better ability than anything the MSG has, and he has an awesome commander effect.

And honestly, I don't know enough about either character to tell you why the MSG has her stats. I've never seen their game stats, they aren't in the movies, and I don't know who or what they are.

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The simple truth is a Jedi who cost 50 point should be equal and have the same surviviability as a shooter who cost 50 point. One should not be better than the other. At the moment that is not the case. FU mite change that for the Jedi of this set. but will not efect Jedi from older sets.
New CE rarely help Jedi usually only help shooters or non Jedi melee. So older Jedi are unlikely to improve. Where as older shooters are.


I haven't seen any evidence that Jedi are underpowered or poorly represented in the game.

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As for "Characters add their heroic levels to their defense"

I am sure Jedi do as well or similar.


Sure. Jedi get better at blocking and deflecting, other characters get better at ducking and dodging, and other characters just get luckier and luckier.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 4:22 pm 
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"think you're a bit off when you say that the "only thing" Ki has on the MSG is +30 HP. Anticipation is a much better ability than anything the MSG has, and he has an awesome commander effect."

Well i disagree. Ki sucks big time IMO. If you like him that's fine as we all have our favorite characters. I think the MSG is far better ( not that i was keen on the changes made to her but thats a personal choice)
Anticipation you can use what 3 times max. Recon is far better Talon Karrde cost the same as Ki and has recon i would take him over KI anytime if i was given the choice.
As for Ki CE i could use a lot of words to describe it. Awesome would not be one of them.
I do not think it is necessary to know who the character is the stats speak for themselves.

"Sure. Jedi get better at blocking and deflecting"
that's the point we are trying to make Jedi should have this more.

And as a matter of fact i do understand the RPG, ( i think i am one of the few who preferred the west end games version)

Look we can agree to differ on some things your opinion is just as valid as mine is. You think i am wrong i think you are wrong i can live with that. :)

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:54 pm 
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My thinking for parry is only on characters like Obi and Dooku, maybe Grievous. Evade can be on some others, again Obi comes to mind, but it would fit on the a mid level Jedi very well. Basically keep it to the figs that deserve it and maybe a few to lesser factions like the OR and seps.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 8:15 pm 
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Sithdragon13 wrote:
Certain Jedi should have access to evade and parry, but i would never put both on one Jedi and even then i would only give a select few, aka-most powerful, these abilities. Why shouldnt a Jedi have the chance to stop every attack. I think it would be awesome to have two Jedi at the end of a game going against each other and watch all of the parrying going on. It would be a great recreation of the movies.


Kind of a fix that I'd like to see would resemble the die rolls that equal out to higher level characters that already have block/deflect being able to refoll a failed save, but the characters that didn't originally have the block/deflect can only roll once. Thus the force power comes into play on a re-roll and their saber expertise was the initial block.

Sort of a Force Ascetic requirement for defense on lower level jedi...any thoughts?


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