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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 4:54 pm 
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SirStevee wrote:
Deflect and block shouldn't be a special ability. Because 2 minatures have evade doesn't mean the entire game dynamics should also change.


A lot more than 2

Here I'll list some

Boba, BH
Boba Enforcer
Bith Vigo
Any follower with stealth within 6 of the vigo
Defel Spy
Lando, DS
Mistryl Shadow Guard
Jawa Trader
Han Scroundrel
Han, Rogue

That's all of the characters with evade that I can think of.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 9:53 pm 
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I think all jedi should have Lightsaber Block. They could make it a new rule and just add it to the "may use 1 Force to move faster or re-roll" part of using the Force. Plus, with the increase in base damage from 10 to 20 and even 30, I'd like to see them make Lightsaber Reflect be more like "reflect all damage back to attacker". Yoda is the only one that has it right now, so it shouldn't be too hard to pull this off.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 10:42 pm 
Unnamed Wookiee
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The Jedi have force powers. is'nt that enough of an edge?

If anything maybe getting a limited Evade like save of 16.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 2:57 pm 
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Sure, it seems odd that some minis have the ability to avoid ranged attacks for free, but jedi have to spend force to do so.

But, giving evade to a force user would be really really bad. The force user could re-roll the missed save, making it REALLY hard to hurt. Same goes for parry.

I could see some CE that gives that ability, but outside of REALLY special circumstances (i.e. a special Obi-Wan, Master of Soresu MIGHT have parry, but it would be cooler to give him a force power that is situationally better) I believe that evade and parry are defensive special abilities for non-force users.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 4:54 pm 
Unnamed Wookiee
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Perhaps a limited evade only like i said at Save 16 as long as they dont get force renewal.

You can make a Force user burn through Force Points quickly enough if targeted often but Renewal would just totally flip the balance of power.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 8:06 pm 
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Rimeeri wrote:
I admit From a Logical Standpoint I have to agree with Dnemiller here. Is it easier for say Luke to deflect a shot with his Lightsaber (Mind you he can sense it coming with the force) or is it easier for Han to dodge a Bolt of light moving at the speed of light. Me I think it would be easier for a Jedi since they have the force. But than again he are talking logically about a fictional universe and Also talking Logically about SWM 2 things I have not seen go together to often.



long winded but correct Bravo!! :D


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:26 am 
Really Cool Alien from a Cantina
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Evade? No

Deflect and Block as SAs? No

The Jedi need to be balanced, not unbalanced.

the choice between taking dmg and the chance to not take dmg should have to cost something.

What are you spending force on then? Moving faster and rerolls? There needs to be some kind of consequence for their ability to use the force.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:28 am 
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Lord_Nihl wrote:
Evade? No

Deflect and Block as SAs? No

The Jedi need to be balanced, not unbalanced.

the choice between taking dmg and the chance to not take dmg should have to cost something.

What are you spending force on then? Moving faster and rerolls? There needs to be some kind of consequence for their ability to use the force.

What does it cost characters with Evade or Parry?

As long as a SA is adequately reflected in the cost of the character, then I don't care who gets evade.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:30 am 
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Fool wrote:
IMO the balance of power SHOULD be in favor of the Jedi....They ARE Jedi after all (or Sith for that matter)

One cannot speak of balance and then suggest that it should be in anyone's favor. For the game's sake, everything should be balanced between cost and effectiveness across the board.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:42 am 
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Fool wrote:
I totally disagree - in a galaxy basically run by the Force, the Jedi/Sith whatever (force users) should have the balanced skewed in their direction.

Logically speaking of course.

This is a game and needs to be as playable as possible. Period.

Also, jedi were gunned down mercilessly by a swarm of clones as represented in the game by clones being much cheaper per mini. Why bother making other minis if jedi will always be better for their cost?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 12:34 pm 
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Fool wrote:
Menoth's Fire wrote:
This is a game and needs to be as playable as possible. Period.


I totally agree - but that doesn't mean that the Jedi can't be skewed statistically speaking. Some might argue that they are already (Force Powers) but they should be even more so (maybe just a little) as they are the warriors of the galaxy

Menoth's Fire wrote:
Also, jedi were gunned down mercilessly by a swarm of clones as represented in the game by clones being much cheaper per mini. Why bother making other minis if jedi will always be better for their cost?


One might argue that the Clones were under the "influence" of Sidious - much like the argument that the Empire and Stormtrooper immediately lose the advantage when Vader throws Palpatine down the shoot.

I'm not saying that they need to NERF other minis - just that they should really be the focal point of the Game to a degree.

There are many of us for whom the jedi (light or dark) are not the inspiration for our love of Star Wars. I think it is clear you are biased. I know many people who think that Boba and his fellow 'hunters are the end-all-be-all of the SW galaxy and they would probablly argue that it is in their favor toward which the statistics should be skewed. I, of course, have a trooper fetish. However, I believe troopers should be like tofu: not very good ontheir own, but if you sauce them up with CEs, they could be pretty pimp. Individually, the jedi should slaughter the majority of indiviual models (except maybe BHs) on a one-on-one basis, but their individual point costs should reflect that. That way a couple of ballin' jedi would be a match for, say, a bunch of troopers with a couple of the right CEs thrown in. That is game balance and it is that toward which the designers should strive.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 12:42 pm 
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I understand that people enjoy jedi, but you can't just give them a chance to avoid all types of dmg for free, that's broken. There's no way about it.

And let's look at some of the pieces we are talking about here. The Mando Blademaster has parry, ooh, what a scary piece from a well supported faction. I think not.

Boba BH is what you are talking about here, not Duros Explorers.

The fact that Boba has evade is the reason people will use to argue that Jedi should have either Parry or Evade.

Or that Block Deflect should be free.

I agree with Menoth's Fire in principle here. People like Jedi and Jedi are much better than most other pieces in this game already, so I would contend their stats are already skewed in their favor.

The simple fact is that people are constantly looking for ways to make this game simpler for them so that they can play it better, and when you ask for something like this, its really weak.

The simple fact is that Jedi work just fine right now, they don't need this at all


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 12:42 pm 
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Quote:
I believe troopers should be like tofu: not very good on their own, but if you sauce them up with CEs, they could be pretty pimp.

LOL, OMG....I cant believe you just compared star wars to pimped out tofu! .

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 12:54 pm 
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Tofu Troopers! Nice analogy!

While I agree "in theory" that jedi *should* be able to deflect, the problem lies more in the implementation. I fully support 75% or more jedi having either block or deflect printed on their card. However, there needs to be design space available for jedi who either are choosing not to be defensive, or have not learned how to be so. Each mini is only a snapshot and a fraction of each character. It is perfectly reasonable to assume that at the particular point in time that the force user is being modeled after does not have lightsaber deflect or block.

Also, I disagree with the point that it is 'easier' to deflect with a lightsaber than it is to evade. First, blaster bolts don't move at the speed of light, and seem to move even slower than bullets based on the movies. Second, it is perfectly reasonable for a character to be agile and willing to duck and cover like a madman to avoid being shot. Now, if I had a lightsaber, I absolutley would NOT duck, dive and cover. I would be far to concerned about cutting off one of my own precious limbs with such a dangerous stunt. I would not, however, be concerned about accidentally shooting myself as I lunged for the floor. I guess I could use the force to guide my lightsaber so I don't disembowel myself, but doesn't that defeat the purpose - gaining an ability that doesn't cost force to use.

Basically, I believe that if a character has an active lightsaber, they better be using the force to do anything risky.

For fun, try doing some acrobatics with one of the plastic lightsabers and see how often we touch the plastic part, or accidentally hit a friend.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:06 pm 
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Lord_Nihl wrote:
I understand that people enjoy jedi, but you can't just give them a chance to avoid all types of dmg for free, that's broken. There's no way about it...

It is not "for free" if you pay more points for a mini because it has Evade. :roll: Paying more for something is the exact opposite of what "free" means.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 2:23 pm 
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Fool wrote:
Menoth's Fire wrote:
This is a game and needs to be as playable as possible. Period.


I totally agree - but that doesn't mean that the Jedi can't be skewed statistically speaking. Some might argue that they are already (Force Powers) but they should be even more so (maybe just a little) as they are the warriors of the galaxy

Menoth's Fire wrote:
Also, jedi were gunned down mercilessly by a swarm of clones as represented in the game by clones being much cheaper per mini. Why bother making other minis if jedi will always be better for their cost?


One might argue that the Clones were under the "influence" of Sidious - much like the argument that the Empire and Stormtrooper immediately lose the advantage when Vader throws Palpatine down the shoot.

I'm not saying that they need to NERF other minis - just that they should really be the focal point of the Game to a degree.


I've got to agree with Fool on this one. The Force Users should be "better" than the non-Force Users.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 2:37 pm 
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Lord_Nihl wrote:
Evade? No

Deflect and Block as SAs? No

The Jedi need to be balanced, not unbalanced.

the choice between taking dmg and the chance to not take dmg should have to cost something.

What are you spending force on then? Moving faster and rerolls? There needs to be some kind of consequence for their ability to use the force.


Have to totally disagree with you here. Jedi should have these not necessarily both but should have it one or the other as a SA.

But yes it should be coasted into the character. I would prefer the Jedi to have a lower defence and have these as SA than have a high defence and have these as force powers.
The simple truth is that most high defences are inadequate now with such high attacks & CE that add to it.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 2:58 pm 
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Fool wrote:
I totally agree - but that doesn't mean that the Jedi can't be skewed statistically speaking. Some might argue that they are already (Force Powers) but they should be even more so (maybe just a little) as they are the warriors of the galaxy


Then everyone ends up playing Jedi vs Jedi and there's no point in even having some factions. If the game is skewed, even slightly, to favor Jedi over all others, then there is no reason to ever play anything but Jedi, unless you enjoy losing. Every faction should be able to hold it's own in competitive play, with or without Jedi.

It's sort of what happened in the various Star Wars role-playing games. The earliest games gave Jedi's all kinds of advantages over other character types, so consequently everyone wanted to play the Jedi. Jedi's could do everything other characters could do, and usually better, so the other classes were considered subpar and only for diehard role-players who didn't care about having an effective character.

So in later editions, they tried to make the other classes good. They have cool abilities. Not Force Powers, but cool abilities that are as good as Force Powers. One of those abilities is Evasion. I think you have to be a Scoundrel to get it, maybe a Scout. And of course, the SWM is based on the Star Wars RPG/d20 system, so a lot of that stuff carries over. And that's why Lando has it, but Yoda doesn't. Lando has a lot of level in Scoundrel, Yoda has a lot of levels in Jedi.

Another thing to consider is this: A Jedi Padawan and a Stormtrooper have the same Defense (16). The Stormie is wearing the best mass-produced light battle armor in the Universe. The Jedi Padawan is wearing a cloth shirt.

Something's wrong there, right? Obviously a cloth shirt doesn't provide the same protection that the best light battle armor in the universe! So some of that is the Padawan's ability to dodge attacks, but some of it is also his ability to deflect and parry with his lightsaber. That's where his Defense is coming from.

So like Darth Vader, Jedi Hunter has a defense of 23. Some of this is his bad ass armor. Some of this is his ability to hold up his hand and absorb the energy of a blast. Some of this is his ability to deflect shots with his lightsaber. And then, on top of all that, he can choose to spend a Force Point to deflect or block a shot.

That's why Jedi don't all need parry/evasion, and should spend force points to use force deflect or force block if they have it on their card. Because the ability of every Jedi to deflect and block some shots is already calculated into their high Defenses, and giving them the actual ability on top of that would unbalance the game.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 3:03 pm 
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krayt_dragon wrote:
That's why Jedi don't all need parry/evasion, and should spend force points to use force deflect or force block if they have it on their card. Because the ability of every Jedi to deflect and block some shots is already calculated into their high Defenses, and giving them the actual ability on top of that would unbalance the game.


Great post and well said. This is the critical point in this discussion.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 3:16 pm 
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Really then how do you explain that a lot of NON jedi also have high defences.
Take KI & MSG.
Both have the same defence MSG has far more abilities Also has Evade.
The only thing Ki has is 30 extra hit point. Give the choice i would have 60 hit point and evade over 90 hit point and no evade.
This is just 1 example there are dozens more.
Even if you have block or defect you only get this once per turn. Evade and Parry every single time. Even force renewal does not compare to that.
My MSG last a lot longer on my teams than any Jedi costing about the same.

Edit directed at the 2 posts before fool's post.

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