Just trying to get a discussion going here.

I noticed that currently Vader's Apprentice, Unleashed is the highest rated miniature on Bloo Milk (average vote of 9.3/10). I'm sure this won't last for long, but it got me thinking that maybe he's more useful than I realized. I wrote him off initially because the Redeemed Apprentice's Force Push 4 seemed so much better, but now I'm wondering if I missed something. Darth Tyranus, Legacy of the Dark Side has showed me just how useful Force Lightning 4 can be. Force Lightning 5 seems like a game-winning ability, if you can get it off.

Has anyone had any success with Vader's Apprentice, Unleashed in their squads? What kind of build works best with him? Should you build around him, or is he a good support piece to a different main beatstick?

Stats for reference:

Vader's Apprentice, Unleashed (48)
Hit Points: 130
Defense: 20
Attack: +13
Damage: 20

Special Abilities:

• Unique
• Melee Attack
• Double Attack

Force Powers:

• Force 2
• Force Renewal 1
• Force Lightning 4 (Force 4, replaces attacks: range 6; 50 damage to target. Huge or smaller characters are considered activated this round; save 16)
• Force Lightning 5 (Force 5, replaces turn: range 6; 60 damage to target and 2 characters adjacent to that target. Huge or smaller characters are considered activated this round; save 16)

He's an awesome figure....FL5 is great, but honestly to me it seems more about the ability to force opponents to be wary of their spacing than actually getting the FP off. I kinda wish the new Dooku had both, but he has other tricks that he doesn't miss it much.

VA Unleashed may be in a better faction, but since he's Unique he can't even contribute a lot of synergy with the best CEs in the faction. I think he's over-rated for that fact that his Offensive numbers and Defensive numbers are so low.

People probably voted him so high just cause they like the idea of FL5.

Yeah, I have to agree with Dean here. Vader's Apprentice, Redeemed's Defence is big, since it's rare you want to waste his turn with a Double Attack he can chill in cover Pushing. While Vader's Apprentice, Unleashed is cool and his Force Lightning is great, he drops quick. People know his Lightning can be a game changer and play according to that.

My intent wasn't to ask whether VA Redeemed or VA Unleashed was better. I just want to know if VAU is worth playing in an Imperial squad.

Re: Defense
VAU's defense and HP are the same as Aurra JH, and that doesn't make her unplayable. I realize that they're different pieces in different factions, so it's kind of apples to oranges. But I think that 130 HP and 20 Defense shouldn't be a death sentence. Even the biggest Damage output squads would have trouble finishing him off in one round. Han Cannon could do it if he rolls three 11s and a 7 on his four attack rolls (which Mettle will help, but it's not a given).

I really don't want to be defending him. I just don't see how he "drops quick". Especially with 102-152 points of other characters in your squad, that can potentially be targets for your opponent.

Anyone else have this same experience, where he dies before he can do anything useful (or at least anything worth 48 points)?

Is he useful, as punxnbutter pointed out, on a psychological level? Does just having him on the board alter your opponent's placement strategy in a useful way? Does he draw enough fire to make him a good distraction for the rest of your squad?

Do you think Palps or Thrawn are the better support for VAU? Thrawn would help deal with the situation where he gets based after getting Lightning off. Luckily, both Palps and Thrawn are pretty universally useful in an Imperial squad, so you could include both of them without focusing your whole squad on VAU (although that would certainly be easier at 200).

Your point about using Vader Unleashed instead of VAU is a good one. Vader doesn't have the ability to activate opponents, and VAU can put out more damage per Force point under ideal circumstances, but Vader's rangeless Force Powers are probably more useful than VAU's Lightnings. Plus Vader has better stats to boot. For only 2 points more. Hmm...

He was talking about Aurra JH not the undercosted until the end of time Aurra CS.

I meant Aurra Sing, Jedi Hunter (41)--the Sep one. Her cost is much closer, and she's at her best at close range, which makes her a somewhat better comparison to VAU (although, as I said, not a perfect comparison).



It's not like Grand Admiral Thrawn and Emperor Palpatine would be doing nothing other than boosting VAU. Pretty much anybody in your squad can benefit from both of them (Palps' CE is universal, and Thrawn's Ysalamiri and Master Tactician are generally useful as well--non-Uniques are obviously helped even more by Thrawn). The 3 of them together don't really fit in 150, but I think it could work well at 200.

At 150, I'm thinking Palpatine and VAU wouldn't be a terrible base to a squad. You have 62 more points for support.

Not trying to argue, just discussing. Thanks for the continued posting, Dean.

He has been intriguing me recently. Definitely a 200 point piece. Squad to be posted soon....

Yea pickins for synergy are slim in the Imp squad for a force using unique beat with crap base stats. Palps is a must and surely the way I'd go if building a 150 squad that "had to have" him in it. Thrawn is fine as well since he's cheap for all the other stuff he does, but there are waaaay better choices if you're gonna be swappin anyhow.

To close.....I've had him since tFU set came out. Number of times I've played him


0

I've been looking at him as well. Lightning 4 can be pretty devastating if you are positioned correctly and win init. Not even the damage, the activation can really hurt some squads.

VSAU was in the first squad I played (hey remember I am a newb to this game). I love imps so I have tried using him in many squads since then. Some things I have observed since using him:

1. People read his stat card and he instantly gets a target on his back. I try to get him to hang back and wait a bit to move forward. However most of the time he gets mowed down before he is able to use the FL5. People just go out of the way to kill him.

2. Like the above poster (dean possibly), I have used him in squads with Thrawn and Palpy. However with his cost and the support you need to effectivley use him 200 is much better than 150 for him.

3. If I was going to play him in a tournament today I would play him in a Thrawn swap squad.

My overall opinion of him is that he is a cool piece, but with his cost and lack of defensive force powers he is more of a "flavor" piece than a character I would build a squad around.

I built a 200pt squad with him in mind long before the set released that I just noticed on shoebox after reading this discussion. I think its actually worth discussing.

Thrawn/Mas 45
LV 71
VSA 48
Stormy X6
Ugo X2

200pts, 12 activations

You get a couple of nice benefits here. First, you have the option to swap around your two beats. LV can do all the dirty work early, and soak up the damage from Tempo control squads, and then swap away to hide. In comes the VSA, who hits with lightning, and then can use Vader's CE for some extra dmg hits that he often needs to finish figures off. Its got enough hps and dmg potencial to be able to deal with most things.

I debated about changing the Stormies to grans, but I just find that the higher defense, and the ability to shoot gives the stormies the edge. Obviously you can use Raxus Primes if you want as well. I don't think upping the activations 1 round is all that important for this. You are really just trying to get your two beats in and out of battle without dying, not without taking any dmg.

I think that Bill's squad, where the Apprentice is a secondary threat to Vader is probably a good way to go. It sounds like VAU is usually public enemy number 1 when he hits the battle map, so pairing him with another big target like Lord Vader will help in one of two ways. Either your opponent will focus on Vader, and allow themselves to get zapped, or they'll focus on VAU and let Vader overwhelm everyone in his path. If you can split the damage between the two, and keep them both alive as long as possible, all the better.

Now, is there a better secondary threat to run with Vader than VAU? The Empire seems lacking in non-Vader beatsticks. Roan Fel and Palps SL are probably too expensive to run effectively with Vader, and I'm not sure Antares Draco is beefy enough or scary enough to present much of a threat. So in this situation, is VAU a good choice to play?

Also, which Vader would be the best one to run with VAU? Is there a better option than Lord Vader?

Option two would be Palps and Vader Unleashed I think. But we all have already seen that play out - you really drop thrawn for palps and its not bad, just not great either.

Although, I have been tempted to make a Palp/VSA/Vader U squad with the MTB in mind. Lightning away your MTB when needed, and use it to set up late. Hmm, to shoebox I go...

Edit - Here we go:

Vader U 50
Palp 40
VSA 48
Lobot 27
Admiral Ozzel 11
Ugo X8

13 Acts, 200pts - MTB Engine. Ozzel isn't nearly as big of a liability as he might seem considering I am really using him to set up the VSA - but the MTB can off him if I really need to at some point. I think this could actually be quite good - other than against Vong obviously - but even then, LS Throw still works, so you have some range options. Then the VSA become a meat shield for Vader. Against Thrawn, just use throw as well.

Before I started this thread, I tried to build a 150 point squad with VAU. This is what I had:

--My Apprentice's Apprentice--
50 Darth Vader, Unleashed
48 Vader's Apprentice, Unleashed
40 Emperor Palpatine
12 Ugnaught Demolitionist x4
(150pts. 7 activations)

But I'm sure it works better in 200. I was also seeing how less activations might play out, but I'm thinking this squad would get creamed most of the time.

I have to say (take this with a grain of salt because I am new) that I like the LV/VAU Thrawn swap more than the Palp/VU/VAU variants because it uses a very succesful warband and switches it up (I understand that the palp warband was 150 pts, but....). LV can take on pretty much everything and come out on top, and VAU gives your opponent another threat to worry about. It has a lot less activations than most B&B, but I think it is managable.

Currently, I would say either Anakin, Lord Vader, or JH are the better options. Depending on how Scourge turns out, I think he will definately be the ideal option.