Seriously, ANY piece with a Force point is going to run into serious problems against the Vong. Citing the Vong as a reason to not to play her is a bit too focused. Bane gets murdered by Vong JHs. Hell, Rage wouldn't help her at all in that match up.

Master of the Force 2 would be a little too good. Bubble twice a turn would make her nigh invincible.

She does have some issues, no doubt. Top tier, possible, but a lot of work needs to be done.

That is a totally apples to oranges comparison, and as usual you have missed the point.

My statement is not "OMG Talon cannot beatz teh Vong." I don't think in those terms and you have been around enough you should know that. What I said was that the way she is built, and in the set in which she appears, she is not worth her points because Force Immunity/damage evasion-reduction abilities shut her down. Vong are the example I used because that is what I faced.

No Force Bubble. No Force Lightning. The Mobile + Twin +AOO + Bubble doesn't work because she can't bubble and then a JH just Twins her for 60 damage, needing only 7's to hit. All those force points and she can't even reroll.

And the same is true if you face a Thrawn squad that stays close together. I am not advocating NOT using her because of what one's opponent MAY use, but at the same time you have to be smart about squad building. If your local play area is keen on Force Immunity, Talon probably will never be a good choice to run.

Saying Bane, or any other character with a Force rating, will have trouble with Vong the exact same way Talon will is not only wrong but something that I would expect to hear a new player say, not a long-time community member. Bane has different stats - and Force Powers - that are useable even against Vong. Talon does not. Her damage output is simply too low to be effective, and no matter how much you want to argue about it, nothing you say can change that fact.

Okay then, your arguement applies EXACTLY to Luke and Yoda. Force Immunity shuts them down harder, I think. Those with Block and Duelist have issues with the Vong as well due to their Immunity and non-Force. Okay, Bane may have been a bad example, but my point still remains. Using the Vong as a reason is pretty silly, considering other Force users are hit just as hard.

The difference being that Loda appeared in a previous set with different characters/abilities etc.

And no, I don't think Loda is worth 70 pts. either.

At this point I have to question if your goal is to better understand a differing viewpoint or to just argue semantics. Neither one would surprise me.

What's that got to do with it???? We aren't discussing Talon based on set balance, but on overall game balance. She and Loda do just fine for their cost, as long as you aren't playing in a meta where 5/10 people bring Vong JHs each and every week....

It's not just Vong that make them slightly overcosted.

As to what set balance has to do with game balance, pieces are balanced per set. It's also sometimes referred to as - wait for it - powercreep.

It's the same reason SS got nerfed, for example. The CE branched out. The CorSec Officer wouldn't have made as much sense in TFU as it did in LotF.

I really don't buy the "balanced by set" argument any longer Boris. And whether its true or not, that has no bearing on the current meta which is where we are discussing Talon anyways. But we have certainly seen our share of pieces that preceded their counter part in the next set lately. NTMTOs on another figure for another faction coming a set after the MTB for example.

You argument was completely based on Vong, so how am I supposed to debate the issue with, "Its not just Vong that make them slightly overcosted." Well, quite simply, I disagree with that. Your example used Talon in 100 - I don't consider that format worth discussing any longer.

So let's try 200 - where I would use Talon and Loda. Talon squad:

Talon 56
Boba Merc 58
Lobot 27
Kel Dor BH X3 39
Gran X2
Ugo X4

200pts, 12+ activations, MTB engine. Kel Dors work well with Talon to soften opponents and Boba finishes them off. Pretty self explanatory, but most certainly works well with Talon in there. You will have to be very careful dealing with Talon and the three BHs to even get to Boba. Which makes this a great interference squad concept. Obviously, if the MTB is not an option (San or NTMTOs) you can get the BBSV against accurate shooters - BGs and Caamasi Nobles against melee, Garindan against DR, and Wicket against high defense Jedi. I even have enough activations to run the MTB with Wicket/Gran or Garindan in this build. (Last Kel Dor can kill the MTB when needed).

I would definitely not use Talon in 200, especially in your squad where you can drop her and a Gran for Caedus.

Your post above objectifies everything that is wrong with character-based design discussions, because each person's opinion of a character is based entirely on their own personal game experiences. For example, you once said Han GH is a bad piece, which was later proven to be the result of a "sealed" game you had with him in which you rolled poorly on most every attack.

Someone who rolls high numbers using him would definitely offer a different view, however, neither experience is a fair assessment of the character.

Ultimately, what it comes down to is, as we both said earlier, what the local venue for each player is like. I regret the specific use of the word "Vong" because it's appearance elicited a negative response that led to a misrepresentation of the point I was trying to make (which I have come to expect from Sithborg because he doesn't try to interpret meaning; he just reads the words, but I think your own personal beef with where the conversation ended up led you to take a similar position). For that I apologize.

As for the rest, you must have missed my post where I stated that the re-emergence of Force Immunity (NOT just Vong) couple with the increase in opportunities for damage reduction/evasion in this set (and yes, the last set, too) keep Talon from really being at the top of her game. Something simple and fitting with her comic book character like Sith Rage would have tilted the balance just enough for her to be competitive in any setting.

Ultimately, I have found Stealth (barring the option of super-stealth) to be the most worthless ability in the game, or at least, in the game as I play it today. Accurate Shot is the best ability in the game, and as long as it trumps Stealth, then Stealth will never be worth its value. Too many characters, or should I say, too many TOURNAMENT-WORTHY characters have Accurate Shot, thus invalidating the presence of Stealth.

I only mention this because Talon has Stealth, and I'm sure that was factored into her cost. What a shame.

No, I made the point about Han GA before the sealed event actually. The irony was that I was saying he had too many abilities that put his cost too high (not that he was not costed appropriately). And then in my first Sealed game, I actually used all of them (only time of course).

And I did win the Sealed event with Han GA (or in spite of him).

Now, as to whether Cadeous or Talon is better in my squad - that's personal preference I suppose. But to say he would be significantly better is wrong. Stealth is much better than you are giving it credit for. It gives you access to Evade, accurate shot if you are a shooter, and protection from non-accurate scrubs. Not to mention the option for psuedo-SS with the RBSV on occasion.

And I suppose you would have to actually see how I play this Boris to understand why Talon is better. Its a situational benefit I am sure, but the option to mobile lightning with KDBHs is so much better than DC with this. I don't think you really thought about what I am doing with this squad. I have so many options, I think I can deal with about anything with it actually.

perhaps there will be a mandolorian commander with a superstealth commander effect at some point. Then perhaps 200 pt Superstealthed Talon Could be an option.

Can someone please post the exact stats and abilities of Darth Talon, I don't believe Shoe Box to be accurate. What exactly is her force lightning?

Force Lightning 1: Force 1: replaces attacks, range 6, do 20 damage to target.


Shoebox has it wrong on the site.

Yes, Shinja pointed that out to me in the other thread just now. I do remember she is supposed to have the cheaper one. So ignore my idea about lightning on the Kel Dors

My point is you making a claim that is also applicable to 90% of the Force Users out there makes it too general of a point to use against Talon. Yes, she is weak vs Force Immunity. Vs Vong, not a lot you can do, against Thrawn, use a Bith Vigo for some Evade, and when they are close enough, you can pretty much nail Thrawn.

Rage is an interesting idea, but I really don't think it works too well for her. It sort of works against her mobile abilities.

The idea you have with the BBSV is definately worth the 20 pts for it. She lives way longer with evade, and the BBSV isn't a terrible piece to begin with.

Talon is really awesome. She can use mobile, attack with loner or use lightning, and move back within 6 of the vigo. A simple strategy that extends her HP quite a bit, along with force bubble.


I love the bith vigo. Defiently one of my favorite figures. As a fun figure, you can't go wrong.

At 150, how would the Talon/Lumiya team fair?

I was thinking:
Talon
Lumiya
BBSV
AA x2
Uggy x2
149 points, 7 activations (Ouch )

Low activations, but what do you think?

I'd take out the Vigo and a AA for Lobot, so if you need the BBSV you can bring him in, otherwise use his rein for activations. It's fun, I've played a something similar.

I have to agree with all those who asked 'Where's the Sith Rage love for the Sith in this set?"

Talon's good in the numerous respects mentioned, but at the end of the sidereal day, the
horsepower to weight ratio is lacking. She needs rage at the same cost and/or a battery.

In fact, isn't Jedi Master Chief's custom stat for Marka Ragnos' spirit what most of the Sith
need to keep apace with the force batteries available to the Republic, Rebel Alliance and
New Republic? With only "2 Sith always there are" they need to be mighty to counterbalance
in the force against all the Jedi. JMHO