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 Post subject: Re: What will it take to replace the Ugnaught
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 8:31 am 
Black Sun Thug
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So, you think the Scurrier would make Kun more tournament competative? Funny thing is, that was what I was originally going for. My first iteration made them too good. If you look at them in the movie (ANH-SE) they don't run towards other character, but away from. They are timid and scared. However, allowing them to be controlled like that made them too good with Kun. With the weaknesses that I built in your opponent has a much better chance of taking them out before they get up on him for the Kun swap. I don't think it would make a Kun squad "broken" or unbeatable.

So, yeah, they'll be good with Kun, but not too good. They'll allow Kun to swap in for less cost, but that's about it. They won't be doing much damage at all, so Kun would be left to do all the work. Besides, haven't you had a squad that was just 2 points shy of the build limit? This, at least, would allow you to meet the limit and have another activation.


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 Post subject: Re: What will it take to replace the Ugnaught
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 8:38 am 
One of The Ones
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A +8 attack to do 30 damage isn't "doing much damage"??? That's what these guys would do against Force Users. Add Swarm in on top of that, and then throw in Wicket behind them. And then on top of that you could add a high power shooter and a Human Scout and effectively give the Scurriers ANOTHER +4 bonus. They VERY quickly would get built up to a level where they'd be putting out quite a bit of damage.

The trick with designing pieces is you have to take into account EVERY other possible interaction.

Personally, I don't ever want to see a 2 point piece, and ESPECIALLY not a Fringe one. The point of squad building to a specific limit is you have to make tough choices sometimes. Do I want to reach the point limit exactly, or would I rather squeeze in this other piece and be left with 1 or 2 points hanging?

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 Post subject: Re: What will it take to replace the Ugnaught
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 8:44 am 
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Skywalker2B wrote:
How about something like this:

Nuisance (This character's Damage cannot be modified, even with a critical hit.)



I think you missed this ability, Lobo :boba: . But yeah I understand the problem. I was just hoping for more of an open talk about what COULD make a 1 or 2 point figure vs NO WAY IT WILL EVER HAPPEN type comments. :(

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 Post subject: Re: What will it take to replace the Ugnaught
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 8:47 am 
Black Sun Thug
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You beat me to the punch, Boba. With Nuisance, while their Attack can be modified up, their Damage could not be more than 10. So, the best Kun can do for them is +8 Attack. Is there any SA on another character that would be able to give Savage characters +X to Attack? Right now, I don't think so.

So, to answer your original question, Boba, yes, I think we could see the Ugo replaced, and/or even a 2 point filler piece.


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 Post subject: Re: What will it take to replace the Ugnaught
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:02 am 
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Plenty of pieces can make Savages get a bonus to their attack, it's just that Kun is the only one that can do it without an Empathy piece as well. :P

Technically, I did see the Nuissance ability, and while I realized what it meant, I didn't realize it was intended to mean any damage modifiers. First of all, you'd need to use a lowercase 'd' instead of the uppercase (uppercase 'D' indicates a change to base statistic, which rarely happens anyways).

Actually, I think the better option, would be to take off Savage, and just make the Nuissance ability to read something like "Not subject to Commander Effects" (like the Droid definition) or possibly "Not subject to Commander Effects or other Special Abilities that provide a bonus when making attacks". Though I'm not sure on the second one, as it would still allow it to be subject to things like Defensive CEs, or CEs granting extra movement, etc.

I still think it should be 3 points. :P

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 Post subject: Re: What will it take to replace the Ugnaught
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:02 am 
Black Sun Thug
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LoboStele wrote:
The trick with designing pieces is you have to take into account EVERY other possible interaction.


I tried to do this as much as possible.

LoboStele wrote:
Personally, I don't ever want to see a 2 point piece, and ESPECIALLY not a Fringe one. The point of squad building to a specific limit is you have to make tough choices sometimes. Do I want to reach the point limit exactly, or would I rather squeeze in this other piece and be left with 1 or 2 points hanging?


I can see your point about forcing a difficult choice when building your squad. While I think this Scurrier is a good balanced cheap piece, I doubt we'll ever see anything like it come to fruition.

Something I just thought of though...I have it being a Common, but if you think it would be taken advantage of, perhaps they could make it a UC or even a R? Heh heh heh


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 Post subject: Re: What will it take to replace the Ugnaught
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:04 am 
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Skywalker2B wrote:
Something I just thought of though...I have it being a Common, but if you think it would be taken advantage of, perhaps they could make it a UC or even a R? Heh heh heh


Just make it Unique. :P That would probably be OK with me, since you'd only be able to use 1 of them. :P

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 Post subject: Re: What will it take to replace the Ugnaught
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:13 am 
Black Sun Thug
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LoboStele wrote:
Technically, I did see the Nuissance ability, and while I realized what it meant, I didn't realize it was intended to mean any damage modifiers. First of all, you'd need to use a lowercase 'd' instead of the uppercase (uppercase 'D' indicates a change to base statistic, which rarely happens anyways).


Hmmmm...yup, you're right here. I should use lowercase "d" instead.

LoboStele wrote:
Actually, I think the better option, would be to take off Savage, and just make the Nuissance ability to read something like "Not subject to Commander Effects" (like the Droid definition) or possibly "Not subject to Commander Effects or other Special Abilities that provide a bonus when making attacks". Though I'm not sure on the second one, as it would still allow it to be subject to things like Defensive CEs, or CEs granting extra movement, etc.


I like the idea for changing the Nuisance (it fits better to what I had in mind), but leave the Savage. That means you'd have to have the Wrangler if you want to control it, and keep it within 6, slowing it down. Or, the Savage makes it harder to keep it out of line of sight. Thanks. I'll modify the original idea/post. :)

LoboStele wrote:
I still think it should be 3 points. :P


I really couldn't decide on 2 or 3, but really wanted a 2 point filler.


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 Post subject: Re: What will it take to replace the Ugnaught
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:23 am 
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Do you ever see only one Scurrier in the movies, or even in the literature (i.e. books, comics, etc.)? No. They run in packs. So, Unique wouldn't work. Plus that would negate Swarm +1. UC would do since I think they are native to Tatooine only.

BTW, Lobo, I hope you don't think that I'm arguing with you or anything. This is all in jest since Scurrier is not a real mini anyway. :)


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 Post subject: Re: What will it take to replace the Ugnaught
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:31 am 
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It's all good. :D I agree with you, that a pack of them would be better. But you could do one variant of them that is a 4 or 5 point piece, and then a Unique one that is 2 points. Or heck, even one that is 3 points, and a Unique at 2 points, since we were talking about something to replace the Ugo.

Even so, I don't think anything like this would replace the Ugos in ALL builds. Maybe in some specific squads.

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 Post subject: Re: What will it take to replace the Ugnaught
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:05 am 
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This is a fascinating questioin - is the 3 point Ugo the PERFECT fig? Is it so elegant in design, that it cannot be replaced?

I'd say yes. Dealing with doors is such an important tactical consideration, and the satchel charge is such a simple solution, that it would be very hard to create a figure to eclipse the ug.

So, given that its impossible, let's try!

I think that it would be some sort of "non-character" character. Something that doesn't count as an activation (like hansickle) but can boost an adjacent fig and maybe move around. I'd imagine a lower powered gonk.

Targeting Droid
Fringe or Seps
Cost 3
HP 10
Def 12
Att +0
Dam 0

Speed 3
Rangefinder
Linked (At the beginning of the skirmish, choose a unique character without the melee SA. This character will only activate immediately after or before the chosen character activates and this activation does not count as your normal activations during the phase. If the chosen character is defeated, this is character is also defeated)
Inconsequential (This character does not open doors, does not prevent opposing characters moving through, and your opponent can choose to ignore this character when determining legal targets)
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I considered giving it Self Destruct 10 because that'd be a cool drawback to rangefinder, but then this character would be the end all be all for Muun squads.


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 Post subject: Re: What will it take to replace the Ugnaught
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:08 am 
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Interesting idea, Solodan.

Ummm...I know that I sort of started us down this road, but I think what we are actually doing here is trying out Custom Minis instead of what the original intent was. Then again, perhaps the original intent was to propose custom minis that could replace the Ugo. Either way, I think this topic should really belong in the Customs area. Sorry, Boba.


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 Post subject: Re: What will it take to replace the Ugnaught
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 12:54 pm 
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I just don't see a way for a piece to cost less than 3 for the various reasons already stated. As soon as you put an ability on it, the cost is going to increase. Even if you gave the piece a negative ability to drag the cost down, what would you be left with? The Ug is great because he is very purposeful beyond increasing activations. The piece generated that would be less than 3, I believe, would have serious issues being anything more than increasing activations; and, frankly, I think that it would suck worse than an ewok.

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 Post subject: Re: What will it take to replace the Ugnaught
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 2:36 pm 
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Skywalker2B wrote:
Then again, perhaps the original intent was to propose custom minis that could replace the Ugo. Either way, I think this topic should really belong in the Customs area. Sorry, Boba.


My original question/intent was not to design a 1-2 point piece or a specific 3-point piece. Just simply, is there any ability that is more useful than Satchel Charge that is realistically available on a 3 point piece? Personally, I don't think it will happen, but would like to explore possibilities. I could see other 3-pointers being useful, but not in place of Satchel Charge. Although I do agree with Boris' idea if Satchel Charge ends up on other pieces you are already fielding, then the Ugnaught might lose its power a bit.

What if a 3 point piece had Emplacement? Could be used to hold open some doors until defeated and take up activations.

I do enjoy all the strategic comments and custom ideas throughout the thread though.


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 Post subject: Re: What will it take to replace the Ugnaught
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:08 pm 
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I actually think the Unaught is way undercosted. I also believe it was brought in as an answer to what was considered many many to be a huge metagame problem and was kept so cheap as a consequence. Now that there are more solutions to that problem I believe that, if the Ug was designed today, he would be considerably more expensive.


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 Post subject: Re: What will it take to replace the Ugnaught
PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 10:39 am 
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Lifter (Cost: 3)
HP: 10
Def: 11
Atk: +0
Dmg: 0

Droid
Lift

I think I'd play this over an Ugnaught if I had some other door control in my squad already (like Override).


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 Post subject: Re: What will it take to replace the Ugnaught
PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 12:23 pm 
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I like some of the ideas here.

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 Post subject: Re: What will it take to replace the Ugnaught
PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 12:30 pm 
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Same here. While I'm not convinced any of them would replace the Ugnaught as the 3 pt. 'staple' several of them would be pretty cool. Though a cheap piece with Lift would be crazy for some squads, allowing more pseduo-Mobile.

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 Post subject: Re: What will it take to replace the Ugnaught
PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 9:11 pm 
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Quote:
if the Ug was designed today, he would be considerably more expensive.

I disagree. R2 (RS) is only 8 points and his door control ability is much stronger. Doombot is only 1 point more. Granted R2 is a unique, which is a draw back, but he still doesn't cost that much to play.

Most game designers have a system based on function engineering. I am not sure where the arguement of more expensive is derived. The Ugnaught filled the shoes of the ewok for increased activations. I don't think a low cost figure's final point cost is based on the number that can be in a hundred point army or everything would cost the same. Activation management is part of the game strategy and, if the Ug didn't exist, another low cost piece would be used.

The Ugnaught has an ability that does control a focused area of the board. However, it is an all or nothing type of ability that can become a negative to the individual who blew up the door during the later stages of the skirmish.

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 Post subject: Re: What will it take to replace the Ugnaught
PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 6:23 am 
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The only way I see the Ugnaught being replaced is if they come up with something that is even more useful than door removal on a cheap fig.

I have no idea what that would be.

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