IMO it's more to do with doing it "RIGHT" and "Almost" (Which is too much like Wrong)
example-
The "CARS" pixar movie toys- great toys, cheap and quickly available from almost every retailer and really well produced, Almost
the manufactures used low quality lead based paint...

SWM great product, innovative and progressive, designs and sells really well-
oops not enough game material support; i.e. Maps

Oh, here's a new map, 1 year after we said we would provide new maps... oh yeah, and we're only going to distribute them to Retailers who:
Are Silver level Direct ordering
Ask for them in advance
only send 2-3 per store
and oh, yeah 1 of them they'll need to use to advertise the new product

Did we forget to mention that the Fellow in charge of the Gaming standards,DCI (Ian Richards) is a Duche-Bag and hates Star Wars and only allocates his staff to doing stuff for it after months of Corporate level complaints...? Yeah, that map won't be legal untill 3 months after Gen Con

enjoy!

Is it for certain that it is only 2-3? Because, like I said, there were a lot more Desert of Desolation map/posters at my store. It seems obvious to me that they would send less posters if that was all they were.

And shouldn't you be upset that league kits are only available at premium stores as well?

I don't see what the problem is there, if all of their serious/semi-serious players bought an average of 1 per person, I don't see how they could fail to break even, let alone fail to make a profit.

Maybe one per player doesn't generate the quantity needed to make it profitable enough. The real minis money is made from the boosters where each player will likely buy much more than just one of the product. A one per person type thing like a map pack wouldn't have anywhere near the profit level that a new set of minis does.

All depends on what they set the retail value at.

I think this is quite probably true, or the similar situation where while it would be profitable, the total base of purchasers is not large enough to be considered a product worth investing in.



I think it's pretty simple to estimate that. It would have to be less than AoE because that has 4 maps and figures, and still hasn't sold out in 2 years. So if you're doing maps alone, it's got to be less. I think between AoE, and the UM books, they probably have had a pretty clear picture about what the ~ $20 supplimental item for SWM will generate in sales and they also have a pretty strong belief that it's not worth doing since they were in no way hesitant to say exactly that at Gencon. And that kinda sucks, because AoE in particular was a fantastic product that I'd love to see variations of--I bought 2 of them. But the reality appears to be that there aren't enough people who feel the same way.



I wrote this on the WotC board in response to Boris's similar post, but I'll restate it here for those who aren't following both:

It's cost efficient because it's a small cost added to a promotional item they are already going to do anyway. Look at JC's cost calculations in his map pack thread. If you're already spending $1000 (just a fictional example) then double-siding it costs only $100 more (another fictional example). And increasing the print run wouldn't cost substantially more either. Items in the promotional budget don't need to look good the same way a product going through the distribution chain needs to look good. It's considered a cost rather than a product. So you're talking about slipping $100 into the promotional budget that's yours to spend vs convincing some suits that you could spend another $1000 on something that maybe makes $1200 (again a made up number) back, while they're reviewing the financials, reorders, and inventory of the last 3 somewhat similar products you convinced them to make and none of those numbers look very good.

My proof nickname!? Are you that blind? Almost every other mini or card game gets alot more support then us. And when we finally do get something, it's like there throwing us a bone for us to shut up. Seems as they don't try to make good maps, or scenarios- They're just giving us crap and saying it's candy. Ok, yay for new maps. But come on! Trying find the setlists are hard enough, now that they will have maps too, they'll be freakin' gold. It's really starting to **** me off how they couldn't care less about community as a whole. Ok, they have a forum, they take some ideas. That's all fine and dandy, but when we ask for a map and we get something like Korriban, or Coruscant...Just ridiculous! Muun. Grand Plaza is ok, because it was made before huges. As is the others that came before UH(the first huge set) But there is no excuse for the other failures besides ignorance. maybe if they play tested and actually knew the game. Or perhaps they can cut the crap and get someone who knows what they're doing on they're team. Jedicartographer, and a few others. Sorry, but I don't know their names by heart. If not hire, maybe buy the rights to the maps, or perhaps have them be consultants.

Maps released in this way is a good idea. Comparing set poster distribution without maps on them to what it will look like with maps on the back is imo, quite silly and ill informed. It just looks like another classic example of complaining to feel important.

Lets wait and see how the distribution is really set up, and complain if there are major problems with it only. Complaining that we are getting a product we have asked for is just plain dumb. Especially when you dont have any idea about the distribution...

Thank you WotC for another asked for product being delivered.

That's called being professional. You think they didn't bitch and moan behind closed doors when they found out the AT-ST pack didn't meet their sales goals? C'mon man you're smarter than that.



What if they sanction these maps? Don't tell me they won't; there was a DDM map one time (Drow Outpost I believe it was called) that was only available through the purchase of an issue, one particular issue, of either Dragon or Dungeon magazine (I can't remember which). Imagine what that must have been like to attend a major tournament and sit down and play on a map you'd never seen or possibly even heard of before.

Of course, the way DCI updates SWM floor rules it might be sometime around May 2017 before we see any new floor rules update, but still...




Just because WotC doesn't "bitch and moan" doesn't mean they are more respectful of us than we are of them. Their method of knocking us around is far more subtle and callous. Imagine if they actually listened to the things we told them and acted in a fashion that was more in line with our requests.

When I participated in Erik Olsen's map discussion thread, never NEVER did I suggest nor did I mean to suggest that I wanted WotC to just GIVE away free maps. I think it's reasonable to say that 90% of everyone who posted in that thread wanted WotC to SELL maps for us to BUY at a reasonable cost (reasonable for them).

Dean is right; it's not the end of the world but I still haven't seen an explanation that makes sense to me how a company that doesn't want to make a product they claim loses money can justify producing far more limited quantities that alienate the customer base at large and is a TOTAL profit loss.

I don't care about the means of delivery. Those who want the maps will get the maps. I care about the quality of map. Ease for flying? I wonder what that means... Low cover all over? Pits? I dunno.

Exactly, this is much more important imo as well. I dont know what it means either however, so what else can we talk about

Well part of this is aimed at me, but I'm fairly certain I have prefaced just about every comment with "if they don't produce more" and in a different thread on WotC someone commented that producing larger numbers of set posters would just be stupid. It's convenient to just write it off as "classic complaining," but aren't you the one who has pointed out that tone is difficult to spot in posts? So you can't have your cake and eat it too.

If that doesn't persuade you, then as someone once wisely said, "People who bring up complaints are not the enemy."

We all want this product line to be the best it can be and as successful as it can be, don't we? I believe in "heading things off at the pass," not waiting until it's too late to correct a mistake.



Maybe we should also wait until they sanction Korriban before calling for its removal, then....

Anyway, I think educated guesses can be made based on past production numbers. Someone mentioned Korriban and that is a great example



No offense Bill, but this is not what anyone asked for, I don't recall.

Would you please care to elaborate the "better" support other games are getting. Are you talking about money tournaments? Well, those aren't doing so well, and many have been cut. LEs? Well, we have the League kits, which come with more, and many prefer repaints to uber rare/powerful LEs. Competitive enviromant? Sure, it needs some work, but I don't see what is wrong supporting more casual enviroments with the League kits vs a powergaming enviroment. Granted, the floor rules are a constant source of irritation, but if they did update them when they planned, Korriban would've likely been legal, and they would've been bashed for that. It is a no-win situation for them.

Again, I saw MANY D&D maps available at my local store. I expect we will get roughly the same amount. I think it is very premature to call it very hard to get. And even if it is, at least they are moving in the right decision. Would you honestly not want to get the maps? Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Who are you talking to?

Verjal. Apparently there was a glut of posts as I was writing it up.

While I do agree that the level of complaining is a bit much I can see where it comes from. The only thing I really have to go by for how this will go is how distribution of the original promo Korriban map went. Prior to it being reprinted in the last starter I knew one person at my LGS who had it. The only way most of us would have been able to get a copy was to pay an inflated price for it on ebay. That's with Korriban being a bad map that's not legel for DCI. Now think what it will be like trying to get one of the new ones if its just as limited, but its a good map, and is made legel for DCI play. I think fear of that happeneing is what's causing most of the serious griping. So while I'm hoping it will be good, legel, and easily obtainable I am prepared to start my complaining if it turns out I actually have something to complain about in March.

Now my little distribution idea on this thing would be to add one to each case of boosters. They could make up some of the cost of adding them by either dropping the booster insert completely or also limiting it to one per case.

My comments on this are only to say that in my personal experience, the set posters are difficult at best to come by. I would assume they will up the number produced and set out, but we can't be sure. If they somehow decide that not increasing the number of the set posters produced is a good idea, then I would likely have to go the ebay route to get my new map. I'll be going to LGS saturday and telling the owner to see if he can pull some strings to get extra posters for the next set. I am all for this poster move if these maps are easy to get. I'm optimistic that they will increase the number of set posters, but there is still reason to be concerned because of my personal experience with previous distribution.

Well said. This sums up my feelings as well. I hope they will up the number of set posters, too, but at the same a measure of realism is necessary. More posters equals more expense, and by giving them away in this manner, WotC cannot recoup any losses. The more posters they make, the more the loss, UNLESS they are getting a cheaper rate for more copies, which may be possible. I still say better to raise the alarm now when there is still time to see a more positive result rather than wait and bitch after the fact because no one said anything.

What would be really cool is if they put a set poster in a sealed case. Buy a case, get a map. Even if they raised the price of the cases $5-10 it would be worth it. They KNOW we're going to buy the cases, and then store owners can sell the maps in their shops if they want. I think they are on the right track but still choosing to not make money off an important element of the game. I want to see WotC make money because that's how they justify continuation of more stuff for the game. I don't know about the rest of you, but I don't want them to just GIVE me anything. Free stuff from time to time is cool but not necessary IMO.

EDIT: Heck, even if they put a set poster in 1 of every 3 or 4 cases, that would be cool.

set posters in the cases would be an excellent way to alleviate my concern about distribution. If they did that, I dont think anyone could complain about the new maps.

And its quite simple, that its way to late as is. By the time you receive the info enough to make a complaint the decision has been made. To go off on a rant about a worst case scenario that is highly suspect to begin with is irresponsible imo. You are just creating unnecessary negativity for people who might otherwise see this as a positive.

Honestly, Boris, what change do you envision you have the power to affect in this decision to release a map on the back of a set poster by these complaints.

On the positive note, I like your idea of putting them in cases. But I am sure they have plans to mass release them anyway, whatever the method.