Corporate america and gaming - what an interesting mix.

My guess is that it isn't profitable as a product, but someone's marketing budget allows for this type of expenditure.

Who's ranting? I recommend you go back and re-read my first post, and try to imagine it's someone saying it that you don't just think the absolute worst of.



By myself, absolutely none. I am powerless for something like that. But others are speaking up, too, and would have whether I said anything or not. May as well add my voice to theirs in the hopes that WotC can do something extra (IF it hasn't done anything already). At the very least, maybe they'll make a second wave of set posters.



I hope you are right. I still remember when the Korriban map came out and no one could really find it unless they had a gracious store owner who got them. Then at GenCon there was a stack of like 500 of them for people to take during league play.

Really, I don't care all that much in the grand scheme of things.

For myself, I'll hope the map is both good and released in adequate quantity so that it doesn't end up being a $30 ebay item... however, I will say I still think WotC isn't paying attention. I could be wrong, but it feels like about the only thing they've listened to us on of late is the square bases... which went the way of the dodo immediately. On virtually everything else (maps, floor rules, huge sets, HP distribution, etc) they seem really to listen only to themselves... and while I do understand that you can't just listen to the vocal minority (as someone who makes games for a living, I understand this very well), I DO think there are some low-hanging fruit they are simply missing.

I think the observation that because we're not a wholly owned franchise, we're the red-headed step child is correct... unfortunate, but there it is. I guess I'll just keep trying to get new people into the game as best I can... more players = more sales = better support

I think the point is that Jan 22 is too late for whatever print run has been done for a set coming out March 28 given how far in advance all these decisions are made. So it's of no value to assume the worst right now. It's like complaining about a movie 3 weeks before it's released because you heard something about it you don't like. The movie is what it is at that point--the filmmakers can't fix your problem even if they wanted to. Maybe you'll like it, and maybe you won't, but that's a complaint that can be made at the appropriate time.

There was a similar situation with the reimagined Battlestar Galactica. There were massive outcries when a female was cast in the role of Starbuck. And more doomspeak when it was revealed there were cylons in human form. Even one of the actors from the original series got onboard bashing the show sight unseen. And people were starting petitions online. Then people saw it. And it was very good. And Katie is great in the role. And the cylons in human form are great villians. And that actor went from bashing it, to guest starring in it. And it's gone on to be considered one of the best shows on TV. Now I wouldn't be surprised if some of the same people were starting petitions trying to keep the show on the air longer...

While an accurate assessment of Battlestar, not sure how that applies here Nickname. You're right... they can't change the path now... but then again, much of the information that would form the "complaint" has long been available and widely discussed. Pretty hard to say "well too late now, wish you'd told us this before"

You don't think there's a chance that if WotC wasn't aware of the challenges people face to get set posters they won't make more when they learn of it?
Not saying they're not aware of such challenges, I'm sure some people at WotC are. But I still think it's better to say something as soon as possible, even if it is too late, rather than being angry afterwards because no one said anything at all.

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lol no kidding. My favorite moment from all that hoopla was when Edward James Olmos told the fans at (was it ComicCon) a convention that if they hated the idea so much "Don't watch."

Classic. When I read about him saying that I thought it was brilliant.

Maybe that's the idea here too.

WotC: Guys we're making new maps but if you don't have an LGS you can't have one!

Just kidding.

I have an analogy for you.

When WotC announced DDM 2.0 as part of 4th Edition, many customers of the game were understandably upset at the possibility that their older DDM 1.0 pieces would be obsoleted and there was much grumbling across the DDM boards, but the word came down from WotC that the decision had been made and it was too late to change it.

But then, something happened. The decision was reversed. WotC took steps, based on public outcry, to go ahead and revamp ALL of the minis for 2.0. Ian Richards in a public statement credited the fan base for the change of heart.

Had the community just shrugged and said, "Let's wait to see how they handle it," it's likely nothing would ever have been done.

I figured out what is really bugging me about all of this, though. Erik comes along and asks us, the SWM community, what we would be willing to do to see new maps produced. All kinds of ideas are tossed out: map packs, online downloads, etc. Out of all of that, exactly ZERO people said, "Why don't you guys just put them on the backs of set posters?"

Out of all of that exactly ZERO people said "Why are you not just making free maps?"

EVERYONE was willing to pay, and EVERYONE wanted them made available regardless of location, everyone that posted in that thread that I could see.

But this is what they came up with instead. It had to be their idea or they wouldn't do it. That is the message to me. That is what disappoints me. That they chose the most difficult method for the community at large to obtain the new maps and ran with it rather than consider ideas thrown at them by the people who contributed to that effort in Erik's thread.

Even if they do produce more maps that won't make them any easier for everyone to have one, and everyone who who actively plays and buys SWM who wants one should be able to have it IMO.

Nicely put, both of you... Boris and Dean, I think you hit it on the head on those.

Wow, you miss one day on the boards and all hell breaks loose. Such hostility over a rumor How bout we wait and find out how they will be distributed before all the doom and gloom. I know my LGS had a TON of DCI Eisley and Cloud City remakes, so much so they gave them away as prizes for the TFU release tourney. So if they come like that then it shouldn't be a problem to get. The rest seems to be to make sure the guy who orders at your LGS can do something about the quantity, I will go out there for this one and say if he doesn't know then you will end up with the normal one or two set posters. Which would be bad. In the meantime if I can score a bunch of extras cause minis is pretty low priority in my neck of the woods, then I would for sure share them with the people here who can't get one.

Actually, you're misremembering the question. Erik asked what we thought about several options for online map distribution. He clearly went on to clarify that he had nothing to do with brand/marketing or the product side and his focus was only on online solutions.



Instead? How do you know it's not in addition to? This is from the brand/marketing team and appears to be the "creative solution" they alluded to at Gencon. That has nothing do do with Erik's project which I'm pretty sure he straight up said when I mentioned what we'd been told at Gencon. When Erik left he said the online map distribution project had been handed off to the powers that be along with several other things. The two are not necessarily mutually exclusive.



The basic complaint is that the map will be too hard to get. I think the appropriate time for that complaint will be when you actually know the map is too hard to get. I'm not going to start complaining now that they're killing trees by shipping way too many copies of a map that no one wants, either. We don't know how many copies will be distributed, how much demand there will be, how much it will cost on average through the secondary market or if it will even be a good map. If it turns out to be a problem, I'll be right there in line posting that more needs to be done.

Exactly. He even specifically said there were other plans being made from the Brand/marketing department for maps as well.

I will remind everyone, these are not $20. Its free.... God forbid they give us something we asked for (new maps) for free. Seriously, you guys need to think about this for a second, and get off the WotC hates us train.... They are FREE......

What was the quote someone once said about if WotC packaged $20 bills and gave them away people would bitch about how they were folded or something like that....

I just dont see how in the world, WotC giving us free maps can = well, everything in Dean's post about ignoring the fans, etc....

I'm not. Just adding a friendly reminder that I think people are forgetting/ignoring in this debate.

And I am most certainly not going to argue about greedy store owners and such, that is not my concern in any way. WotC can deal with that if they desire with distribution rules, but seriously, that is a frivolous argument.

I know its not a perfect solution, nothing is - short of WotC dropping them off at the home of every gamer (of course this might alienate the homeless gamers but none the less). This looks like a very good one, imo.

Its funny, people who said they would pay $20 for a downloadable map on WotC, would not be willing to shell out a few bucks to get a copy from Ebay - if they have no other means to obtain one. Honestly, unless they printed 100 of these, it wont be that hard to get for anyone interested.

I think you guys are overestimating the amount of maps that are truly needed to meet the demand. Its not nearly as high as you might think from reading the boards.

Well there is some good news...

Are you sure that those are the same people?

Ah, so it was. At least it started out that way, but I also remember the conversation eventually turning to a mention that the information had been handed off to the product team. Which brings me to my next point.



I don't, it just seems the logical conclusion of the discussion. Maybe something else will happen and that will be great. As it stands right now, all we have to do is get RPGA release kits so problem solved.

I am glad to know there was foresight here but I have been burned before over stuff like this and I still think it's better to speak up early rather than late.

Lets face it...WotC has a pretty bad track record that they refuse to do anything about. They wont tell us what is going on, and their decisions are rarely fan popular. If they handle this correctly, then they can get some trust, but until they handle it correctly, i am going to assume they will mangle this the way they have everything else.

T plus how many months for the floor rules now?

That really is the heart of the issue... the "automatic doom and gloom" reaction some have is for a reason... kick me in the nuts enough times, I am likely going to flinch when your knee moves, rather than wait to see where its headed this time...

Bottom line, if they wish to give away a map... groovy. That having been said, if it is a BAD map (ie, another Bespin, Korriban, or the like), then I frankly don't care if it is free or not... when it becomes "official" it will create more problems then it solves at least for "serious" players. If it is a good map, it being free is a nice bonus, but is only really a bonus IF it is available in quantity (which it "sounds" like it will be, thankfully). If, on the other hand, it ends up being difficult to find or get for whatever reason, then it will be a not-so-free map... AND be a pain in the arse to get.

Either way, cautious optimism will be the watchword... for now

I have been reading this for the past night and have now decided to chime in with my .02.

I think the idea of a map on the back of the poster is an awesome idea.

However like most of the other people I too am scared that I will not have one of the "elietist" stores which will have them in the quantity demanded.

If my LGS is not able to get me one of these maps I am not opposed to going to one of the secondary sites (eBay) and buying them at $20 (hehe that would put a dent in my weekly beer budget.

However I agree with the people who say lets just sit back and wait a week or two and see what actually happens with the quantity actually printed.

Well, to me it seems like the utterly pessimistic conclusion that's being jumped to with nothing to support it.

WotC: we have 2 map distribution projects in the works.
Boris: OK
WotC: Here's one.
Boris: Bah. Now we'll never get the other one.

Nothing about one being done should lead to the conclusion that the other isn't going to happen too.



That's all I'm asking (or promoting as the case may be.)

Nothing's perfect, but in my experience, even with its flaws, SWM has been managed better than any other CMG. I've never gotten this "kicked" feeling that seems so prevalent to others. DCI is a black hole. That's pretty much the extent of my (significant) complaints.



I have no idea what these are. If anyone is familiar with them, please share.

Each Month and again "Quarterly" WOTC direct, Diamond and Allilance Distributors all send out a with upcomming products and Manufacturers brochure telling (Suggesting) to the retailer (FLG's) how and when to promote the product and when to begin orders...

WOTC usually sends out a 3 month Catalog (That's where the New Boba art came from)
Along with the Monthly fliers,(at least in the past) comes the Poster Check list

as with the latest DDM release, WOTC sent along about a dozen of the desert (Blue Dragon) maps

HOPEFULLY
they do it the same way for us... rather than the way they did us for the Korriban Map- only sending 2 or 3... and the Online retailers Hording them because they out max the FLG's...