This is the "Director's cut" of a sample dialogue regarding a game I played in which it was Loda vs. Loda.

Judge: 30 minutes left in the round.
Me:Let's roll initiative. (Dice toss.) 14.
Opponent: 6.
Me: I'll go first. My Loda activates, gains 3 Force, attack your Loda.
Opponent: Ok.
Me: 13, hit.
Opponent: Alter.
Me: 11, hit.
Opponent: Alter.
Me: 8, hit.
Opponent: Okay, that's 2, and I have 11 Force left.
Me: I thought he had 8 Force because you cancelled last round.
Opponent: No, that was 2 rounds ago, and I gained it back.
Me: Umm, okay. So are you altering again?
Opponent: How much Force does your Loda have?
Me: 8.
Opponent: How are you keeping up with me, you have been using Force more than I have.
Me: And I'm 3 behind you, so not so much.
Opponent: Are you sure?
Me: You were 5 Force points ahead of me at the start of the round, you altered twice, remember?
Opponent:(nods) Hmmm. Where were we?
Me: I'm confused, too. You altered twice I think. So far it's still a hit for 20.
Opponent: Right, okay and you hit. Go ahead and take your Twin.
Me: 4, reroll.
Opponent: Cancel.
Me: Cancel your cancel...
Opponent: Doh!
Me: ...and that's 3 uses of the Force this turn.
Opponent: Let's see, Alter twice, and cancel. Yep. How many times have you used the Force.
Me: Just for cancel.
Opponent: Didn't you re-roll?
Me: Oh right, sorry. Okay so I can use it one more time.
Opponent: And now you're at how much Force.
Me: Ummm, 4? Yeah, 4.
Opponent: Okay.
Me: Might as well Stun. (rolls)
Opponent: 12! (laughs)
Me: (sigh) Worth a shot. (pause) Wait, did I ever re-roll that attack?
Opponent: Which one?
Me: The one where I cancelled your cancel.
Opponent: No, I don't think so. Go ahead and roll it.
Me: 19, hit.
Opponent: So 40 damage total, my Loda is at 110.
Judge: 20 minutes left in the round.
Opponent: My turn?
Me:Yep.
Opponent: Okay I'm up to, umm, 9 Force.
Me: Isn't it renewal 3?
Opponent: Oh yeah, thanks, so I'm actually up to 11.
Me: Okay.
Opponent: Attack Loda.
Me: Okay.
Opponent: 12, hit.
Me: Alter.
Opponent: 6, miss, re-roll.
Me: Okay.
Opponent: 7, just hit.
Me: Alter.
Opponent: How much Force do you have left?
Me: Just 1. No wait, 2.
Opponent: And I have 10 left.
Me: Okay.
Opponent: So what are we doing?
Me: I think I altered.
Opponent: Was that three uses of the Force?
Me: Just two.
Opponent: I attacked, you altered, I hit, you altered, and... yes I re-rolled, and then you altered again.
Me: No, I altered, you missed, and then you re-rolled, then I altered the second time.
Opponent (thinking): That's right. Okay, so this is the alter re-roll.
Me: Yes.
Opponent: 5, miss. Re-roll.
Me: That's 2.
Opponent: No it costs 1.
Me: No, I mean that's the second time you used the Force this turn?
Opponent: Oh, yeah, that's 2. (rolls the d20) 11, hit.
Me: Alter.
Opponent: Cancel.
Me: Do you have enough left to do that?
Opponent: I was at 11, then 10, then 9, then 6 if I cancel, so yes.
Me: Okay. So 20 Damage, and my Loda is at 130.
Opponent: Yep, and now I have Twin. (rolls d20) 5, miss.
Me: Initiative.
Judge: 10 minutes left in the round....

I assume it is some sort of sarcasm or exaggeration. I really have no problem remembering how many times Yoda used the Force in a round and for what. Do you guys use dice to keep track of Force, if so, then there really is no question of how much Force is left (mark the Force spent immediately, and there is no problem there). Add in damage done immediately and no problems there, and all that is left is how often he spent the Force (which is just counting to 3).

However, I do find Loda fights take a LONG time to accomplish anything.

It is embellished somewhat, but not by as much as you might think.

We keep our cards in top loaders and write on the sleeves with dry erase markers. They were frequently updated.

In the heat of the action it's easy to forget to mark the change up or down.

Sounds like someone needs to learn how to count...

OMG, that's too funny. I haven't played with Loda yet, but I can imagine it going somewhat that way.

This is a riot; I haven't had a Loda v Loda match yet. I can see it happening along these lines

2 boris : i know exactly what you mean - played Loda vs Loda once and it really WAS quite confusing.. The worst issue is in mine opinion counting how many times was the force used..

Very funny!

Dare we ask who won? Or are you still figuring Force points earned/spent?

Seriously, though, I can see it getting very, very confusing come GenCon or any other tournament setting where lots of Force Renewal and Master of the Force is around.

In the one tournament I played with Loda, I brought a pen and pad of paper specifically for recording his FPs. I'm glad I did.

In one game (Loda vs Yoda of Dagobah), I know we were both running these same sorts of calculations through our heads, but I don't think it added *too* much to the length of the game. It wasn't a matter of Alter though, more of who would be able to get the last Force Defence off in certain situations.

This is a typical squad/deck that boris would run.....he is notorious for slowing the game down and frustrating his opponent to the max.....ie winter orb....

For the gencon championship I would think that small pads of paper could be provided. if I remember correctly, coolstuff.inc was giving out pads at their booth.....something like that would work.....and might keep the arguing down some.

Wow. If you even play a deck with that card in it you deserve to be shot and killed on the spot.

While I haven't played Loda vs Loda I have played Yoda vs lots of Force users. A well-timed cancel can ruin the combo that you've set up.

Winter Orbs are our friends.

Winter Orb never botherer me when I played. I played a green deck that had more creature mana than land mana.

Actually it was strikezoneonline.

[threadjack]... I recall making a winter orb deck with my urza lands. Eventually I would just boomerrang the troublesome artifact to my hand to untap all my lands... then I would bring it back out. I also did that with Naked Singularity. The deck name was 'annoying blue'. I rarely ever won, but man did it annoy the opponents (this deck was a flat out riot in bigger multiplayer games).[/threadjack]

Basic bookkeeping (activations, hit points, force points, gambit points, and how many times you've used the force per turn) can be very hard to keep track of. Especially in big tournaments where everyone seems to have a different method.

With all the Renewal and MotF being added to the game, it's definitely getting worse. I think that was your original point, wasn't it Boris?

Everyone's methods have their pros and cons. Some methods seem very open to stalling and/or outright cheating.

Dry erase markers on the top loaders worked okay a few years ago, when stats were just about always going the same direction (HP and FP just about always going down as the game progressed). I think this method works poorly for characters with Renewal or Regenerate, which cause stats to move up and down a lot. It's also too easy to "oops" wipe out a few points of damage or Force as you are handling your cards. In a serious tournament, if I was playing someone with dry erase markers, I'd request that they treat the dots / lines as HP remaining and FP remaining (as opposed to damage taken and FP spent) so that any accidental erasing can only hurt that player.

Grease pencils are similar, but much harder to erase - less prone to "oops" shenanigans but more prone to stalling.

Glass tokens work but they cover up the whole card after a while.

I prefer small 6-sided dice, with the dots representing HP remaining and FP remaining. Some characters need multiple dice for each stat. This method adds to the setup time, and it can be trouble if someone bumps the table. I think I will look for a long track/channel that exactly fits the dice and holds them securely in place - ideally it would hold the cards somehow too - this would make it easier to carry the whole mess from match to match.

Next time I talk to Eric / Engineer, I'll see if we can work up a nice wooden one.

Entertaining when thought of as humor rather than criticism.

We haven't really had an issue, though Luke & Yoda is certainly the pioneer in this regard.

Glass beads for HP and dice for FP seem to work fine.

I hate when opponents use markers. It's hard to get a visual representation from across the board and I don't like asking "how many FP/HP?" and "did you remember to mark that FP?" and so on. The visual cue of turning a die or adding/removing the beads is so much cleaner for everyone.

Yeah I use dice, 6-sided for lower HP/FP characters, and 12/20 sided dice for characters with higher HPs. I think dry-erase markers would drive me nuts because I would never remember to mark FPs

Picking up a marker, removing the cap, writing on a card, then replacing the cap and setting the marker down always works well as a visual cue to me. Turning a die: not so much.

LOL, I was thinking the exact same thing. It's a pain for me to carry around a slew of dice with me all the time, especially if you play a squad that has swarms of characters with more than 10 HP, like Aqualish Assassins or something. Then you have to have 10 tiny dice just to mark a '2' on every character. Much prefer to have two markers, and my thumb to wipe them off.

I've never had a problem with accidentally erasing something, and my opponent getting confused. I don't handle the cards except to tap the card to turn it, or to mark damage or FPs spent, so the chances of accidentally erasing a mark are fairly slim.

For what it's worth, once I started using the dry erase markers, almost all the people at both the LGS I play at followed my lead.