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Is Boba BH Broken?
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 Post subject: Re: Boba Fett, Bounty Hunter-Broken, The Debate.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 1:14 pm 
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DarkLordVerjal wrote:
My opinion is he is broken, with disntigration on his stats. That with everything combined makes him broken. Now take away Disnt, and I say he is a powerful shooter piece, possibly the best out there, nothing more. I am getting him soon in the mail as a Birthday present(along with jango BH :D ) and I plan on using him. But when I do, I'm going to clearly state at the begining of the match that Disnt won't count and any crit will be treated as normal. Now if my opponent Objects to this, I will be disappointed. Nothing ruins a match more then Coffee spilt on the cards(damn dogs) OR Having a Big D from Boba BH...

You actually think that he is worth 62pts without disintigration? I disagree, ernestly.

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 Post subject: Re: Boba Fett, Bounty Hunter-Broken, The Debate.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 1:16 pm 
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Yes I think he's worth 62 points without disnt. If he was 60pts without disnt that'd be fine too.

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 Post subject: Re: Boba Fett, Bounty Hunter-Broken, The Debate.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 1:47 pm 
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DarkLordVerjal wrote:
Yes I think he's worth 62 points without disnt. If he was 60pts without disnt that'd be fine too.


This is where I seriously disagree. Its too bad what happened to your local players Zack, but I would be willing to bet they had many other reasons than simply Boba BH to quit the game. People rarely leave for one issue alone, and rarely tell the truth about it in my experience.

I suggest you play a few games like this, and compare Boba BH to your favorite shooter, Han Scoundrel. Play 10 games with Boba (disint is on), and give Boba R2 AM to make it fair. Now, build comparable squads around the two, Han, PL, Obi, some WFFs, R2, twilick and for Boba, two JWMs and Lobot. Play games on multiple maps against the same 10 squads with each team. If you need more help building the teams, check my shoebox for the squads, but I think you know them.

Now, keep track of how many pts of kills each figure can deal in those games. Also, keep track of how much total dmg the two figures can take (every hit counts as dmg whether evaded or not). Remember to play them in the 1 hour DCI time limit with legal maps only. Even with Disintegration, I can almost guarantee that you will be shocked by the results. If you want to save yourself the 15 or so hours required to do the tests, then I'll give you my predictions.

Han will greatly outclass Boba. Han Cannon = 74pts and 3 activations, Boba BH/R2/Ugo = 74pts and 3 activations. Not to mention, Han will avoid more dmg, which covers his lower defense and hps compared to Boba (and typically, will increase them beyond Boba's).

Lastly, you are welcome to house rule disintegration if you like as it does help the fun games and thats what this is about. But Boba is not worth more than 56 pts without the big D. HE would be right on par with Jango BH and less than Boba Merc without it. Which is quite simply why I keep making the claim, that Boba BH is not worth his 62pt cost in the vast majority of games. Evade and Mobile are the only reason he is considered so good. Why? Because it helps him survive till the end of the time limit in 1 hour DCI games. Play by different rules, and Boba is often a waste of points.

Heck, try running JWMs with Capt. Antilles against him. He drops like a rock in 2 rounds.

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 Post subject: Re: Boba Fett, Bounty Hunter-Broken, The Debate.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 7:10 pm 
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billiv15 wrote:
Lastly, you are welcome to house rule disintegration if you like as it does help the fun games and thats what this is about. But Boba is not worth more than 56 pts without the big D. HE would be right on par with Jango BH and less than Boba Merc without it. Which is quite simply why I keep making the claim, that Boba BH is not worth his 62pt cost in the vast majority of games. Evade and Mobile are the only reason he is considered so good. Why? Because it helps him survive till the end of the time limit in 1 hour DCI games. Play by different rules, and Boba is often a waste of points.

I disagree that he is only worth 10 more points then Han Scoundrel without disintegration. Fringe, not Jedi Hunterable stronger stats... I think he is worth considerably more then Han.

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Heck, try running JWMs with Capt. Antilles against him. He drops like a rock in 2 rounds.

If they can get to him. Heck, I had problems getting to Boba with B&B!


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 Post subject: Re: Boba Fett, Bounty Hunter-Broken, The Debate.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 9:09 pm 
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No, Boba BH is not broken. He is a great piece to be sure, but I don't believe any piece in SWM is broken. What everyone needs to do is stop complaining that the pieces they can't/wont adapt to playing against need to be changed. So you're afraid of Disintegration? dont pack a single high-point cost figure in your squad or rely on one piece for all your damage output, that way if you do happen to find one of your allies has become a smoldering pile of dust, it doesn't mean the game is over. I think in today's meta Jango, BH and Boba, Merc can be just as good if not better. Jango and Garm make me drool.

I have never commented on one of these kinds of threads before, but I decided it was time to weigh in on it. Do I enjoy getting a piece disintegrated? no. Has it cost me games? yes. Have I complained about it? no. What I did do is look at my playstyle and realized there are minor things you can do in squad creation and in game that really lessen the pain a big D can bring. So I took these realizations to heart and Boba BH has been much less of a problem for me than he seems to be for a lot of people.


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 Post subject: Re: Boba Fett, Bounty Hunter-Broken, The Debate.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 11:25 pm 
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emr131 wrote:
I disagree that he is only worth 10 more points then Han Scoundrel without disintegration. Fringe, not Jedi Hunterable stronger stats... I think he is worth considerably more then Han.

If they can get to him. Heck, I had problems getting to Boba with B&B!


Feel free to prove me wrong. I laid out the proper tests to run. Ive done it, why cant anyone else before they jump on here and tell me I'm wrong... Rebel (PL and Obi), fprrs for attacks and evades, better stats against non-uniques, and much better odds of eliminating the opposing pieces in one-two activations. I can do this all day...

Oh and as for getting to Boba BH with JWMs, I won the K-zoo 200 back in April (20 players) with Jango BH, R2, Capt. Antilles and two JWMs. I had no trouble getting to Boba (played against him in every round save one). If you are referring to Vader JH B&B, then you would be correct. Boba BH is the one reason Lord Vader is the better option. I've only been saying that since oh about week 2 of the Bounty Hunters release. If you have to deal with Boba, run LV. If you expect more JWMs, run JH. If you run JH against boba, you plan on not being able to kill him. If you run LV, you plan on killing him early.

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 Post subject: Re: Boba Fett, Bounty Hunter-Broken, The Debate.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 5:03 am 
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dnemiller wrote:
I agree with Bill's assessment here... as I was one of the few people who thought Han was good prior to A&E I will agree with that.....


Before Princess Leia and Dead Obi? No, Han Scoundrel was only competitive after A&E.


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 Post subject: Re: Boba Fett, Bounty Hunter-Broken, The Debate.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 8:43 am 
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billiv15 wrote:
Feel free to prove me wrong. I laid out the proper tests to run. Ive done it, why cant anyone else before they jump on here and tell me I'm wrong... Rebel (PL and Obi), fprrs for attacks and evades, better stats against non-uniques, and much better odds of eliminating the opposing pieces in one-two activations. I can do this all day...

Well Bill, since both Rob and NM have repeatedly stated that there is no set-in-stone formula by which they cost minis, then you cannot make the assertion that you've run the "proper tests." There are too many variables to which we cannot add a definitive number value (how much does Flight cost, for instance?). It's definitely based more than on how many games out of 10, 20, or even 100 that he survives, or how many points he kills, etc. I don't doubt that you can't (or haven't) get in the ballpark, but there is not magic equation that will give you a definitive number that you can really bet the farm on, as it were. If you were off by a few points, how would you know? Costing is an art not a science.

Please keep in mind, I'm not disagreeing with your assessment (since I don't play filthy Rebel scum :P), but I know you cannot make such a heavy-handed assertion that you have the magic, undisputable number.

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 Post subject: Re: Boba Fett, Bounty Hunter-Broken, The Debate.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 8:58 am 
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Broken, as correctly used in the context of gaming? No. He's beatable. If someone plays him, they don't automatically win (but, debatedly, they can, more on that in a sec).

But is he better than some in this thread are now stating he is? Of course he is. An almost guaranteed 40 damage mobile accurate shot. Right there. Right there is why he will always be used, and why he's worth playing. Throw in evade and flight and he's worth the points. Then he's a follower able to benefit from CEs to boost him up. All the other stuff is bells and whistles. Almost not worth mentioning, with the exception of Disintigrate. You guys point out it's only 40 damage. I say that's plenty of damage when it's reliable damage. That's the key word with him, reliable.

But to say that disintigrate is what puts him over the edge (and justify his cost) I feel is also ridiculous. Nobody says, "I'm going to play Boba Fett, BH, but he has to hit a disintigrate to do anything worth while." No, you play him to jump out and pop someone for 40 damage and then disappear. Every round. Over and over. Reliably. Not to mention the useful evade which should certainly extend his life (or at least make the opponent adjust to negate it). Not many other figures can boast that kind of utility and reliability. Couple him with some support like Doombot or Han, RH and you have a mobile beast. You've all seen him played like that, and that's where his strength is, NOT in the Big D.

Now, getting to the Big D. First off, whoever said most of his disintegrates happen when the crit would otherwise kill the figure anyways (or at least very close) is correct. It's 1/20 to land it at any time, never mind early enough to complely kill a piece outright you never would have killed. Odds are it won't make a HUGE difference in the game (and many will attest to this). However, and you know this is the argument everyone makes, it DOES happen, and the fact that it DOES happen in a devastating manner from time to time is where people have the problem. It goes against the common sense of the game. Here we have defense and hitpoints. You need to overcome both to kill a figure. You need to monitor both on your own figures and make sure they are safe to prolong their life. It's a universal rule in SWM. Then BOOM, 1/20 chance of that concept going out the window. That's where the problem is. But just like the Thrawn Swap, which was so counter-intuitive to the way the game was played at the time, people found a way to deal with it, and the fact there is a way to deal with it means it's not broken. Pain in the arse sometimes? Yeah. Broken? No.

There's my more than $.02. However, I will add one more thing. If the arguement is how "fun" he is, that is another matter. Although I said you can deal with him easily, there is no denying that if you don't, that one little ability on his card can in fact ruin your playing experience. I was playing a kid one game, probably about 10-11 years old, playing Bane. First shot of the game, I disintegrated him. The kid was crushed and conceded immediately. 30 second game, and the kid was done in the tournament. Explain to me (I'm asking WOTC) where the fun is for that little kid? He didn't really do anything wrong, but he went home that day with an automatic loss and a non-game played. Explain how that's fun for me? I didn't get to play the game either, and that's the whole point. Like I said, it's manageable, but the fact that it does happen, and there is a chance to end the game abruptly is where people have the problem, and sometimes, whether it can be countered or not, I'd have to agree with them. There should never be an ability in any game that can outright win it for you on a single die roll. Never. WOTC should know better.


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 Post subject: Re: Boba Fett, Bounty Hunter-Broken, The Debate.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 10:23 am 
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Yet oddly, it seemed like everyone was wanting Fett to have Disentegrate since it was introduced in ROTS...

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 Post subject: Re: Boba Fett, Bounty Hunter-Broken, The Debate.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 10:36 am 
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Yeah, that's the irony of it all, and oh so true about Star Wars fans in general. Whine, whine, whine about getting a certain thing, but then as soon as WotC/LFL/Hasbro/etc. give it to the fans, all everybody does is whine, whine, whine about what's wrong with it, or how it could've/should've/would've been better if X thing was done differently.

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 Post subject: Re: Boba Fett, Bounty Hunter-Broken, The Debate.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 10:50 am 
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LoboStele wrote:
Yeah, that's the irony of it all, and oh so true about Star Wars fans in general. Whine, whine, whine about getting a certain thing, but then as soon as WotC/LFL/Hasbro/etc. give it to the fans, all everybody does is whine, whine, whine about what's wrong with it, or how it could've/should've/would've been better if X thing was done differently.

Well, I generally agree with this statement, however:

1) I expect the people who get paid to design games to know what's good for it and what is not. Fanboys have no experience designing games nor do they have any concerns beyond what they want.

2) The Boba fanboys may have wanted Disintegrate, but did they want a mobile/twin/evade/distintegrate Boba? What I'm trying to say is that I want a Shadow Trooper pretty badly, but I don't want one that'll adversely affect the game; I'd rather have one that is unplayable than have that. It's the developers' jobs to balance want we want vs game balance; I'm not saying it's easy, but at the very least, they could have tweaked how things like evade and deflect affect BigD (i.e. they would affect it in any way).

Again, I don't think BFBH is crazy-good, but like Ace stated: I don't think he is a positive addition to the game, just like the limitless range Thrawn swap.

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 Post subject: Re: Boba Fett, Bounty Hunter-Broken, The Debate.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 10:52 am 
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@Admiral Ace-
Very well said, and I agree with you. I first hand knows how a disnitigrate can ruin a game.

And Sithborg, I came in on UH(first time I heard of it.) So I never asked for a disnitigrate.I know I didn't have to, the fact is so many others did.

I will say that i know more then most how much of a Noob-Cannon Boba BH can be. I played wrong up until BH, i interpreted the rules wrong. So when I finally learned how to play right, I can honestly say I use Boba BH in VERY-SINGLE-SQUAD. I was the uber noob who just used the easy to play pieces. So all that time using Boba I know what he can be like.

When I was a noob, I used-the Darkside if you will. I've since learned from my mistakes...

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 Post subject: Re: Boba Fett, Bounty Hunter-Broken, The Debate.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 11:00 am 
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LOL @ Verjal.

@ Menoth: I know what you're saying. I've never been convinced that he was a good addition to the game either, but especially as Boba BH becomes less and less stellar in light of newer released figures, the more I understand that the game designers very well may have known exactly what they were doing at the time. Perhaps they released him intentionally to be a slightly over-powered piece in the game as it stood at the time of the BH release. Perhaps they had ideas planned already for some of the counters that we now see for him. There are so many variables in the whole thing, it's hard to know what the true history is without getting it directly from Rob and Co.

The funny thing is, for a player that is brand new to the game today, I doubt they would see Boba BH as nearly as much of a dominating piece as we all thought a year ago.

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 Post subject: Re: Boba Fett, Bounty Hunter-Broken, The Debate.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:50 pm 
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Admiral Ace wrote:
There should never be an ability in any game that can outright win it for you on a single die roll. Never. WOTC should know better.


I totally agree with you, but have you ever played any other WOTC games, I mean magic alone I can give you double digit examples where they have done this. Trust me, WOTC's answer to this won't be to learn from their mistakes and not do it again. They will make more. Their answer will be that when there is enough sets out their they will start banning sets from tournament play until they get to Thrawn and Boba, BH and if they start cranking out 3 sets a year, that won't take very long.

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 Post subject: Re: Boba Fett, Bounty Hunter-Broken, The Debate.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:15 pm 
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Boba52 wrote:
Admiral Ace wrote:
There should never be an ability in any game that can outright win it for you on a single die roll. Never. WOTC should know better.


I totally agree with you, but have you ever played any other WOTC games, I mean magic alone I can give you double digit examples where they have done this. Trust me, WOTC's answer to this won't be to learn from their mistakes and not do it again. They will make more. Their answer will be that when there is enough sets out their they will start banning sets from tournament play until they get to Thrawn and Boba, BH and if they start cranking out 3 sets a year, that won't take very long.


Someone else can correct me if I am wrong, but I believe Rob has said that he never wants to ban pieces from DCI play.

Also, the day they ban pieces is the day I quit playing. I think banning pieces is a very poor way to deal with the problem. It should be addressed in the set design phase. I think this game is one of the most balanced and fair card/mini games I've ever played. The only game that ranks higher for me is SW:CCG. That game was close to perfect for a few years.

Anyway, Boba52's model for how they'll deal with it is basically what Heroclix did, and look how that turned out. I think Rob&Co. have done a great job keeping down power creep and no piece is broken. Boba, BH does not bring automatic wins every time he is fielded, so he is not broken. And even in the cases when he does bring an auto-win, it is either a mathematical anomaly (critting multiple key pieces of the oppenent's squad), that the oppent has all of his firepower focused around one piece/gimmick, or that the opponent isn't skilled enough/refuses to change their playstyle sufficiently to counter what your opponent is doing. This may sound harsh to say that some people who complain about Boba BH are just not skilled enough to deal with overcoming power pieces, but often the answer to a problem is not found anywhere but within one's self. I think that rather than complaining that Boba in unfair, people need to stop with the "woe is me" stuff and become determined to find strategies/builds that overcome Boba BH and other powerful pieces that catch a lot of grief in the SWM community.


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 Post subject: Re: Boba Fett, Bounty Hunter-Broken, The Debate.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:49 pm 
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:boba: <--that guy isn't broken, maybe a little undercosted but not broken.
He is a very good peice. But, there are lots of good peices.
This Quote by LoboStele is very true.
LoboStele wrote:
The funny thing is, for a player that is brand new to the game today, I doubt they would see Boba BH as nearly as much of a dominating piece as we all thought a year ago.

Those of us who have been playing for more than a year remember how amazing Boba BH was when the Bounty Hunters Set came out. However, he could be beaten then. And, he still can be beaten. His disintegration can determine the outcome of a match, but so can many other abilities like: master tactician, repulse, push, twin attack, alter, stun, riposte, etc.
The idea I'm trying to get across is any miniature can decide the games outcome. Not just Boba BH, so should we label all of them "broken" as well?

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:56 pm 
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Boba52 wrote:
Admiral Ace wrote:
There should never be an ability in any game that can outright win it for you on a single die roll. Never. WOTC should know better.


I totally agree with you, but have you ever played any other WOTC games, I mean magic alone I can give you double digit examples where they have done this. Trust me, WOTC's answer to this won't be to learn from their mistakes and not do it again. They will make more. Their answer will be that when there is enough sets out their they will start banning sets from tournament play until they get to Thrawn and Boba, BH and if they start cranking out 3 sets a year, that won't take very long.



They only banned ONE piece in the first D&D game. And they have been getting 3 sets a year since the beginning. I am not overly concerned about bannings, especially Thrawn and Fett.

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 Post subject: Re: Boba Fett, Bounty Hunter-Broken, The Debate.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 2:56 pm 
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Menoth's Fire wrote:
Please keep in mind, I'm not disagreeing with your assessment (since I don't play filthy Rebel scum :P), but I know you cannot make such a heavy-handed assertion that you have the magic, undisputable number.


I think you misunderstood my point. I also know what Rob has said about how they make and cost the minis. That does not mean that you cannot determine if a mini is costed correctly in comparison to other minis. We do this all the time. Its not as simple as most people seem to think though, and thats a great point to add. (i.e. you cannot do simple mini vs mini comparison as this is a game about point levels and squads, not mini vs. mini).

What you can do, and what I was suggesting, is to make the best squads out there with each mini. So I suggest my Han Cannon squad (or a similar variant) and a Broken Boba squad (either mine with Lobot, or without him such as Dr. Divot's Champ squad). Play each against 10 different squads and calculate the damage made and the damage taken for each mini. Its not perfect, but it will certainly show you the trend. I have done something like this, I suggest others who want to see how good Boba really is should do the same.

Its a great comparison because Han clearly outclasses Boba in it. He takes more damage to kill, and he kills more points consistently. Boba has his advantages of course, which are mainly, increased range and better survivability against melee. Its hard to add that to the test, but the point should be made regardless. Boba is costed pretty well actually.

The point about disintegration is a good one, and I have made it since we first saw the stats. I dont like its randomness. With that said, and using my personal anecdotal evidence, Boba still doesnt make up more than the standard 9/10 wins by the better player/squad that happens whether he is played or not. Nickname and I both agree that 9/10 times the better player/squad should win the game. So, even though I can also point to two games where I got beat by a lesser player because of Dis. it still doesnt account for any more than 9/10 times. Ironically, it also equals the same amount of times I was beaten by Vader JH this year. In fact, looking back at my dci record from since the BHs release, and calculating my games, I found out this detail.

In games where I was the better player (notice, I am not including games where I lost to players equal to me or better) I was 56/60 which = 93.3% wins. Boba specifically accounted for 2 of those loses or 3.4%. I have had several other games where pieces were disintegrated (perhaps 5-7 more times) that I won. I just do not see the problem.

Now, if I look at the games against equal or better players/squads, then I find this stat: I was 20/29 or 69% wins. How many of those losses were to Boba? Only 2 games total. No joke. So that = a grand total of 89 games, with 4 losses total to a squad containing Boba which = 4.5%. Only two of those came at the hands of major disintegrations which = 2.3%.

How many times did I play against Boba BH? Very hard to remember for sure as I remember the games against good players, and those that I lost much better than the countless players of lower skill that I played and won easily. But I am sure it was quite high, perhaps 40% or so.

So what can we learn from this (as I am surprised even by the math)? Number 1, I play a lot of bad players :), Number 2, I dont see how Boba has negatively impacted the game. Sure a timely disintegrate can ruin a day if you let it, but there is no reason it has to, or should. There are so many worse things I have seen in other games that this really is a non issue for me.

I hope this is as enlightening to you all as it has been for me. I found Boba to have even less of an impact than I originally thought it would be lol. Perhaps close to 100 games isnt enough, but if others of you can do what I can with match memory (or if you keep detailed records like Dnemiller does) we can add to the sample size. It would be awesome to be able to back up my assertion with even more math, so please, check your DCI ratings history and see if you can figure how much of an impact Boba has really had on your games. Even if it comes out its completely different for you, I will take the results. Because its very possible the answer is in my own squad construction or play style rather than direct effect of Boba on winning games. I know I have beaten too many Boba BHs to count really, so I am open to other interpretations of the data. Lets see how it goes for others. I imagine Lobo and Madman can do something like this for their local, and Boris can probably do similar for his, as well as Engineer for K-zoo as he tracks the squads and records almost every week.

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 Post subject: Re: Boba Fett, Bounty Hunter-Broken, The Debate.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 3:12 pm 
Master of the Order
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Location: West Chester, OH (near Cincinnati)
Interesting indeed....I'll have to see what I can dig up. My stats will probably be skewed weird though, because I play a lot of silly stuff when nothing important is going on (or when I already have the majority of a set that is currently out, so I don't really need any of the prize support). I know for sure that Madman has beat me at least twice with Disintegrations though (Lord Vader, full health both times, and both times very nearly the first attack against LV in the game). I can't think of any situation though where I've lost a game to a player of 'lesser' skill because of a Disintegration. Some of that is because the 'lesser' skilled players around here are also kids though, and unless they got real lucky with pulls, generally don't have the funds to get a hold of Boba BH.

Stsparks and Uliq might disagree with your assessment though Bill. I Disintegrated a JWM (they had like 60-70 HP left, IIRC) in each of those games, and they were VERY close games. I guess they could've still gone either way without the Disintegration, but we all agreed that it turned the tide easily in my favor. It's probably the only reason I won the quarter-finals match against Stsparks, because my rolls were very much less than stellar otherwise.

I'll try to look at my rankings since last September and see what it tells us.

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