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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 6:40 pm 
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The Document Center lists a ton of tiebreaker options (around 10). Unfortunately, the anecdotal information I've found about the DCI Reporter pretty consistantly says it uses 3 levels of tiebreakers. And it also says the tiebreakers are different depending on which game is selected.

So the question remains, of the 10 described in the tournement docs, which 3 are used by Reporter in regards to minis?

Presumably, Match wins is not considered a tiebreaker as that's what is tied and is trying to be broken.

1. Strength of Schedule
2. ???
3. ???

If still tied, order of input into system.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 5:14 pm 
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NickName wrote:
The Document Center lists a ton of tiebreaker options (around 10). Unfortunately, the anecdotal information I've found about the DCI Reporter pretty consistantly says it uses 3 levels of tiebreakers. And it also says the tiebreakers are different depending on which game is selected.

So the question remains, of the 10 described in the tournement docs, which 3 are used by Reporter in regards to minis?

Presumably, Match wins is not considered a tiebreaker as that's what is tied and is trying to be broken.

1. Strength of Schedule
2. ???
3. ???

If still tied, order of input into system.


Okay, so let's look at strength of schedule for a moment.

Player A plays Player B and wins.

Player A goes on to play round 2 against Player C, who finished the tournament 1-2. Player A wins the game against Player C.

Player A then plays player D and loses. Player D is the winner of the tournament with a 3-0 record.

Meanwhile, player B gets a bye in round 2, which means he didn't face an opponent at all. Then in round 3 player B beats Player E, and they both finish 2-1.

Player E had a bye in round 1 (so no opponent) and in round 2 played player F, who went 0-3 during the tournament.

So, we come back to player A and player B. By all indications, player A had the tougher field. He played 3 games (as opposed to 2, meaning no byes) and then lost to the tournament champ. It's a real head scratcher.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 6:38 pm 
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You are not calculating SoS correctly. See my post on WotC thread for how it works. Its opponents wins divided by games. Byes do not factor in.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 12:07 pm 
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Yep. Bill is right. You can find the calculations in the TO handbook and do the math yourself and in theory get the same number as printed on the list Reporter spits out, but why bother--reporter spits it out. So you can see the strength of schedule right there. My assumption is that the numbers are tied even though you didn't list them in the post. If they're different, then the answer is obvious (and the question is different than I thought.)

So just for clarity, did the players have different SoS listed on the results sheet and you want to further understand that calculation?

Or did the players have the same SoS listed on the results sheet, and you want to understand what was then used to break the tie? (This is what I want to know.)


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 12:12 pm 
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For instance, in our tourney this past week, one guy had to play against me first, and then MadMan in the 2nd round. At the end of our gaming time, MadMan and I were both 3-0, and the guy we both beat had a bye in the 3rd round.

So what was his final strength of schedule? 100%. :lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 12:13 pm 
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NickName wrote:
Or did the players have the same SoS listed on the results sheet, and you want to understand what was then used to break the tie? (This is what I want to know.)


Yes, to me Boris' example is one of simply not understanding how SoS is calculated. The interesting piece for me, is what happens when SoS is also tied (doesnt happen often, but I have seen it a few times). We have tried to figure that next tie breaker out and have yet to find something that seems to be right. However, its so rare, that all I have is anecdotal evidence. For a while I was sure it was DCI ranking (lower ranked player wins the tie), but that has shown to be false.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 1:54 pm 
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I'm surprised it doesn't happen much for you guys.

We average 6-8 players, and only play once a month, and we've had numerous examples of tied SoS values, but not always at first place. Since we bust the boosters and pick in order it always matters in some regard. (But it never matters in people caring because my brother and I generally pass on picks if there's not a collection completing fig at that pick, and we trade anything extra people want/need and give away a ton, and no one else really has a piece-hording mentality either.)


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 1:57 pm 
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We typically have 8+ players. So the instances of tied SoS and records is relatively rare. And often, it can just be the kids, who we have a hard time figuring out where they are really ranked.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 10:05 pm 
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My understanding of strength of schedule is that how well you do in an event is somewhat based on who you get paired against. This is based on previous conversations with people in authoritative positions that seemed to have a knowledgeable and intelligent understanding of the system but were either completely wrong or good at faking insight into the system (which wouldn't be the first time I've had to deal with people who talked like they knew what they were talking about but actually knew the opposite- being nothing).

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Boris wrote:
My understanding of strength of schedule is that how well you do in an event is somewhat based on who you get paired against. This is based on previous conversations with people in authoritative positions that seemed to have a knowledgeable and intelligent understanding of the system but were either completely wrong or good at faking insight into the system (which wouldn't be the first time I've had to deal with people who talked like they knew what they were talking about but actually knew the opposite- being nothing).


Its not. Check it out next time. Its pure math. Total Wins divided by Total games for all your opponents.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 10:08 pm 
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NickName wrote:
I'm surprised it doesn't happen much for you guys.

We average 6-8 players, and only play once a month, and we've had numerous examples of tied SoS values, but not always at first place. Since we bust the boosters and pick in order it always matters in some regard. (But it never matters in people caring because my brother and I generally pass on picks if there's not a collection completing fig at that pick, and we trade anything extra people want/need and give away a ton, and no one else really has a piece-hording mentality either.)


Questions about outcomes have been rare at our venue, but what really raised eyebrows was when it was noted that the third place player not only had a tougher field of play but also beat the guy that took second and left the group wondering how the heck that happened.

The last time we had a DCI fiasco was back in May at the A&E pre-release when we learned that draws are no longer ties. That was a hard lesson; luckily the TOs were merciful. :)

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:54 am 
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Quote:
My understanding of strength of schedule is that how well you do in an event is somewhat based on who you get paired against.


I think that's an accurate, but very broad description of what SoS is.

My record is 5-1 and I played players with winning records.
Your record is 5-1 and you played players with losing records.

I rank higher becasue of who I got paired against. You could have potentially beaten me and all my opponents but SoS doesn't care.

EDIT: I found a couple results sheets in my toolbox illustrating what I was saying about ties coming up all the time for us:

Code:
Rank   Name     Points <-----------Tiebreakers------->
                            OMW%
1      T, J     9           44.4444
2      T, N     6           66.6667
3      P, K     6           44.4444
4      W, M     6           33.3333
5      T, A     3           66.6667
6      O, R     3           66.6667
7      F, E     3           66.6667
8      F, G     0           44.4444


Here 5-7 are somehow ranked in this order outside of SoS.

Code:
Rank   Name     Points <-----------Tiebreakers------->
                            OMW%
1      T, J     9           66.6667
2      W, M     6           55.5556
3      T, N     6           55.5556
4      M, M     6           55.5556
5      P, C     3           55.5556
6      O, R     3           55.5556
7      O, T     3           44.4444
8      R, A     0           44.4444


Here you can see that every single person except #1 and #8 was somehow ranked at least one position higher or lower on something other than SoS.

I'm wondering if these charts are maybe telling us the true answer about tiebreakers. The "Tiebreaker" section is really wide and yet only contains one column for SWM. Perhaps no other tiebreaker is used?


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