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 Post subject: DCI Recorder Strikes Again!
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 8:40 pm 
Master of the Order
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One of the things I have always struggled to understand is how the heck the DCI Recorder program determines rankings. Obviously an undefeated player comes in first place, but here was the situation today that mindboggled (the names are fictional).

Round 1 -
Me vs. Dave (I win)
Joe vs. Sam (Joe wins)
Kurt vs. Mike (Mike wins)
Roger vs. Steve (Roger wins)
Brian gets a bye

Round 2 -
Me vs. Mike (I win)
Brian vs. Dave (Brian wins)
Joe vs. Roger (Joe wins)
Kurt vs. Steve (Kurt wins)
Sam gets a bye

Round 3 - (final round)
Me vs. Joe (I win)
Sam vs. Brian (Sam wins)
etc. etc.

Now, what do you think the final standings would be? Going into the third round, 3 of us are 2-0: me, Joe, and Brian.

Brian got a bye in the first round, but lost to Sam in the third round. Sam, the guy that Joe beat in round 1. So, the way I understood it, Joe should have gotten second, since he had a better strength of schedule than Sam.

But somehow Sam took second and Joe came in third.

Can someone explain this?

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 9:06 pm 
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Uhh, can i buy a vowel?

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 9:15 pm 
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man
I often wonder stuff like this as well
but it rarely occures in our smaller FLGwe usually only have 4-6 that participate
Now at ACME.. when they often have over 12 players (sometimes as many as 20)....

Did you go 4+ rounds?
Did anyone "Drop"
Can you avoid having the Odd man out?

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 9:58 pm 
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i would need to know the full resesults to know but i know how it calculates tie braker

average op win %

it counts buys as a win vs nothing ie if your op win % is 50 going into round 3 it remains 50


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 8:05 am 
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dnemiller wrote:
I cannot and use the program.... you are right though it should have come up different......


but who knows the why....

All I can Boris.... playoffs.... pair the playoffs it is 2 rounds max added in


then you have a definitive winner


We had a definitive winner. My question was why the guy I beat in the final round came in third, BEHIND the person he beat in round 1.


@Frost - Will this help?
Joe and Sam played. Joe won. Joe went on to play a guy who ended the 3-round tournament 1-2; then he played me. Joe finished with a 2-1 record.

Sam got a bye in round 2, then in round 3 went on to play Brian. Brian had gotten a bye in round 1 and won his round 2. Sam beat Brian in the final round, putting both of them at 2-1. Since Joe beat Sam, he should have finished second. I also though that given the fact that both Sam and Brian had byes they would have had weaker strengths of schedule, but that was not the outcome.

Also, Joe lost to the tournament winner, which should have improved his game standings.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 8:34 am 
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Boris wrote:
We had a definitive winner. My question was why the guy I beat in the final round came in third, BEHIND the person he beat in round 1.


@Frost - Will this help?
Joe and Sam played. Joe won. Joe went on to play a guy who ended the 3-round tournament 1-2; then he played me. Joe finished with a 2-1 record.

Sam got a bye in round 2, then in round 3 went on to play Brian. Brian had gotten a bye in round 1 and won his round 2. Sam beat Brian in the final round, putting both of them at 2-1. Since Joe beat Sam, he should have finished second. I also though that given the fact that both Sam and Brian had byes they would have had weaker strengths of schedule, but that was not the outcome.

Also, Joe lost to the tournament winner, which should have improved his game standings.



Bah, its a formula Boris. They only output what you put into it. So, for example, head to head means nothing, as its not part of the calculations. They both were 2-1, so it goes to the tie breaker. Guess, what, Sam beat a 2-1 guy (Brian) and Joe beat a 2-1 guy (Sam). If Joe's third opponent (you said went 1-2 I believe) did that, than he actually hurt's Joe's SoS. The bye does nothing to it, as it neither wins, nor loses.

3 round swiss tournies are not designed to give you an exact detailed breakdown of the best player that day. Its a simple formula. If you want more detail, you have to play more rounds. Expecting more out of it is silly.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 8:41 am 
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Bill if you play me and win and then we both finish the tournament with the same standings it's been explained to me before that the computer takes that into account.

I'm not "expecting" anything from the system, I'm just trying to figure out why the second-place player was actually the guy who lost to the third place player.

Lay off the melodrama for once and accept that sometimes questions arise out of a desire to understand something as opposed to wanting the outcome to be different. :roll:

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 8:47 am 
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billiv15 wrote:
Bah, its a formula Boris. They only output what you put into it. So, for example, head to head means nothing, as its not part of the calculations. They both were 2-1, so it goes to the tie breaker. Guess, what, Sam beat a 2-1 guy (Brian) and Joe beat a 2-1 guy (Sam). If Joe's third opponent (you said went 1-2 I believe) did that, than he actually hurt's Joe's SoS. The bye does nothing to it, as it neither wins, nor loses.


No, either I have confused you or you didn't read it clearly. I'm not sure which.

Look at it like this:
Player A is the clear-cut winner. There's no need for more rounds because no one else is undefeated.

Player B beat Player C, but Player C took 2nd. Player C's field of play included the guy that lost to Player A and a bye (which in the field of play is worth nothing).

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 8:48 am 
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I've seen this before in 3 round tournies. The "final" game usually will drop someone to third.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 8:58 am 
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Boris wrote:
No, either I have confused you or you didn't read it clearly. I'm not sure which.

Look at it like this:
Player A is the clear-cut winner. There's no need for more rounds because no one else is undefeated.

Player B beat Player C, but Player C took 2nd. Player C's field of play included the guy that lost to Player A and a bye (which in the field of play is worth nothing).


You stopped playing after 3 rounds because you had a clear cut winner. That's what you asked of the program, you got it. If you want a clear cut #2, you need to play more rounds. That was my point, I understood your scenario just fine. I usually play 3 round tournies as well, and you get some odd ball results from time to time, especially when Byes are involved.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 9:06 am 
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I'm just trying to figure out why the guy who ended up in second lost to the guy who came in third. Sheesh.

I have never seen that happen before.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 1:10 pm 
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Right now, I am trying to understand the formulas used for tiebreakers. The way I see it, tiebreakers go like this in order by the computer:

Match win percentange
Opponent's match win percentage (your strength of field)
Opponent's opponent's match win percentage (opponent's strength of field)
Direct competition (how the tied people did against each other)

So in either the 2nd or 3rd step the tie was broken. I can provide you with the formulas if you really want to do the math. Right now, I am definately looking at borrowing a laptop for some tournaments I am planning on running.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 2:36 pm 
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Readng over this scenario I'm not wondering how I did so well on my SATs. I my mind hasn't been flexed that way in a while :) /sarcasm

These calculations are wacky.......


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 3:10 pm 
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punxnbutter wrote:
Readng over this scenario I'm not wondering how I did so well on my SATs. I my mind hasn't been flexed that way in a while :) /sarcasm

These calculations are wacky.......


Did you even see the formulas?

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 11:13 pm 
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Sithborg wrote:
The way I see it, tiebreakers go like this in order by the computer:

Match win percentange
Opponent's match win percentage (your strength of field)
Opponent's opponent's match win percentage (opponent's strength of field)
Direct competition (how the tied people did against each other)

The last tie breaker is the first letter of your last name.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 11:44 pm 
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Engineer wrote:
Sithborg wrote:
The way I see it, tiebreakers go like this in order by the computer:

Match win percentange
Opponent's match win percentage (your strength of field)
Opponent's opponent's match win percentage (opponent's strength of field)
Direct competition (how the tied people did against each other)

The last tie breaker is the first letter of your last name.


I know it was mentioned in the TO guide, but I couldn't find it among the pages of formula. It sounds like they didn't even get that far in the tiebreakers.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 12:43 am 
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Engineer wrote:
The last tie breaker is the first letter of your last name.


My last name starts with an A. I'm set if it ever gets that far for me.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 3:01 pm 
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I've never figured out exactly what the "3 tiebreakers" are for DCI Reporter in minis aside from the SoS, but I've heard that if they don't end up breaking the tie then the order of entry is the final order.

I'm wondering if maybe they're still using "game wins" as one of the tiebreakers which is basically useless for minis since matches only include 1 game.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 5:00 pm 
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Game wins are mentioned, which makes it amazingly tough to sort out all the formulas. All this stuff is online, if you want to read it yourself. DCI document center.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 6:40 pm 
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The Document Center lists a ton of tiebreaker options (around 10). Unfortunately, the anecdotal information I've found about the DCI Reporter pretty consistantly says it uses 3 levels of tiebreakers. And it also says the tiebreakers are different depending on which game is selected.

So the question remains, of the 10 described in the tournement docs, which 3 are used by Reporter in regards to minis?

Presumably, Match wins is not considered a tiebreaker as that's what is tied and is trying to be broken.

1. Strength of Schedule
2. ???
3. ???

If still tied, order of input into system.


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