logo

All times are UTC - 6 hours

Mark forums read


Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 53 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next

Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: Balance Commitiee current topics
PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2015 3:38 pm 
Hall of Fame Member
Hall of Fame Member
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 7:22 pm
Posts: 4982
Current Topics 8/11/2015

Floor Rules change for Rapport (3 points being the limit)

Whether a squad can be able to include pieces that have bribery as well as pieces that have reinforcements.

Force Ghosts counting as living

Boba AFH

Commando Droid Officer

NeoCrusader Officer

Imperial Governor

Poggle the lesser

Klatooinian Assassin

Mouse Droids


None of these are simple issues, as anyone who plays the game at any level can attest. The whole game is connected and something always rises to the top. Removing one issue often exposes another.

We realize mistakes have been made in the past and in order to ensure they are not repeated these issues must be fleshed out, analyzed and tested before a final decision is made.

Changes will be made before the next heavy tournament season is upon us.

We appreciate your patience while the diverse group of players decide on the best way forward.

_________________
Image
Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Balance Commitiee current topics
PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2015 3:39 pm 
Hall of Fame Member
Hall of Fame Member
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 7:22 pm
Posts: 4982
additional topics 8/14/2015

Sith Battle Meditation allowing movement into illegal squares?

Vehicles - should anything be done?

_________________
Image
Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Balance Commitiee current topics
PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2015 9:45 am 
Imperial Dignitaries
Imperial Dignitaries

Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 12:17 pm
Posts: 5934
Does the new floor rule basically fix Poggle with out other changes?

_________________
Really???....... DRINK


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Balance Commitiee current topics
PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2015 10:50 am 
Imperial Dignitaries
Imperial Dignitaries
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 12:42 pm
Posts: 3599
Location: New Jersey
That's something under discussion. He still makes 3pt bombs that do 20dmg, so it's not necessarily enough. We've been discussing raising his cost a bit too. But this discussion is still very much up in the air.

_________________
"Don't give the tool more credit than the master." --Weeks
ImageImage


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Balance Commitiee current topics
PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2015 11:13 am 
Death Star Designers
Death Star Designers
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 10:03 pm
Posts: 2525
Location: Anderson, SC
LESHIPPY wrote:
Does the new floor rule basically fix Poggle with out other changes?


I think so. Poggle bombs are really strong yes, but the biggest thing they were doing is giving you enough pieces to outact everyone.

_________________
Bald is beautiful.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Balance Commitiee current topics
PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2015 11:34 am 
Droid Army Commander
Droid Army Commander
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 16, 2008 11:57 am
Posts: 1450
Location: Morris, MN
How about for poggle we just say oh......maybe.... put a 2 in front of that 9 and then he's fine i think, cause for 29pts you'd have to limit squad builds for him.

_________________
Image

Aliit ori'shya tal'din ("Family is more than Blood")
To learn Mandalorian, go to http://www.karentraviss.com/html/mando.htm.

Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Balance Commitiee current topics
PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 12:51 pm 
Imperial Dignitaries
Imperial Dignitaries

Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 12:17 pm
Posts: 5934
Weeks wrote:
LESHIPPY wrote:
Does the new floor rule basically fix Poggle with out other changes?


I think so. Poggle bombs are really strong yes, but the biggest thing they were doing is giving you enough pieces to outact everyone.


I have have to agree. I think upping him too much makes both pieces unplayabe or at least not competitive. With out Poggle the 3 point drones are useless. I would venture to say no more the 15 points for the cost. So if you are going to use them as activations with San it is costing you 25 total points. 1/8 of you squad. which is probably just about right.

_________________
Really???....... DRINK


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Balance Commitiee current topics
PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 12:46 pm 
Major Tierce
Major Tierce

Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2007 11:21 pm
Posts: 3193
Here are some of my thoughts on what is being discussed

1. Force Ghosts Living

Leave them living. The problem is a small loophole that works for exactly one squad (tier 2) which also happens to be good vs a squad with no melee defense (typically shooters) so it helps provide balance to the meta. If it becomes more of an issue later it can always be revisited.

2. Boba

Leave him as is for now and see what happens. Possible solutions IMO would be to drop GMA or to drop from triple to double. He does have the issue that the klat ass had where he basically trumps all other pieces in the price range, so maybe he should be on the short list and if he is a problem next regional season get changed at that time.

3. Commando Droid Officer

Limit the Cannon shots to WOTC commando Droids and he is fine. could change everything to WOTC commando droids but the Cannon shot is the big thing.

4. NeoCrusader OFficer

Should probably be Neo Crusader Followers just to avoid the potential of the CDO plus I think it follows actual design intent more than letting them boost everyone.

5. Imp Governor

Make the CE for followers only and it should fix the problem. Cost up a couple if really, really worried about it, but if it were just followers he becomes a slightly better sly moore (or Monk) which is really what his intent was.

6. Poggle

Nothing. Or at most increas cost by a few (to 15 max). At 15 he would be an ugo boss that gives SD20 to drones. Decent but not great. If he were to drop to SD10, he would see play less than the ugo boss.

7. Klat assassin

Cost to somewhere between 17-20. I would personally prefer 17 so he could be a decent reinforcement option and still get another activation.

8. Mouse Droids

Add erratta that gives them TINY (or whatever you want to call it) and define it in the glossary. Tiny characters don't block movement. This way melee can still use them as a shield to get accross the board, but shooters can't make the mouse wall effects of old.

9. Sith Battle MEditation

Make it so it is usable only once per turn. So you could use it on the aing-ti and on the regular turn, but you couldn't use it 5 or 6 times per round like you can now.

10. Panaka
Lose Twin, add Double on the CE.

11. Vehicles
All are fine at this point I think.

_________________
When I left you I was but the learner . . . now I am the master.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Balance Commitiee current topics
PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 7:42 pm 
Imperial Dignitaries
Imperial Dignitaries
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 12:42 pm
Posts: 3599
Location: New Jersey
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Jason.

Question about Mouse Droids: They don't block movement...okay, but what about blocking a character's final movement space? Ie, should a Mouse be able to prevent basing? Right now a Mouse can still wall off a shooter from melee pieces (ie, potentially surround Cad Bane with 8 Mice so that nobody can base or attack Cad), so that the melee piece has to first kill the mouse before trying to chase the shooter down the next round. In your opinion should this be the case?

_________________
"Don't give the tool more credit than the master." --Weeks
ImageImage


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Balance Commitiee current topics
PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 9:17 pm 
Major Tierce
Major Tierce

Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2007 11:21 pm
Posts: 3193
I Don't think that 2 characters should be able to occupy the same space.

So if you wanted to wall off cad Bane with 8 mice (and spend 24 pts of your squad doing so) then go right ahead.

_________________
When I left you I was but the learner . . . now I am the master.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Balance Commitiee current topics
PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 5:36 am 
Imperial Dignitaries
Imperial Dignitaries
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 12:42 pm
Posts: 3599
Location: New Jersey
urbanjedi wrote:
I Don't think that 2 characters should be able to occupy the same space.

So if you wanted to wall off cad Bane with 8 mice (and spend 24 pts of your squad doing so) then go right ahead.

Okay, thanks. We are discussing a number of different options regarding what to do with the Mouse, so this is helpful feedback. Besides, I think the rules guys would give a big NO to any suggestion that 2 characters could occupy the same space anyway.

There are basically 2 options if we're not going to allow Mice to block a character from ending in a square:
1. The mouse (or other fig with Tiny) is defeated if a Medium or larger creature ends its movement on that square.
OR
2. The mouse is displaced, and is moved to the nearest empty space. The player whose mouse it is chooses which space if there are multiple available.

_________________
"Don't give the tool more credit than the master." --Weeks
ImageImage


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Balance Commitiee current topics
PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 11:18 am 
Death Star Designers
Death Star Designers
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 10:03 pm
Posts: 2525
Location: Anderson, SC
If mouse droids can at minimum cost 3 points then do we really need to change anything about them? Rodian Brutes would be the same cost, can benefit from CE's, and they can attack. Mouse Droids really only are problems in squads with Gha Naught where they are spammed 10-20 at a time.

_________________
Bald is beautiful.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Balance Commitiee current topics
PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 12:38 pm 
Death Star Designers
Death Star Designers
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2009 8:57 pm
Posts: 3502
If something were done about the Mouse (I agree that I don't think it's needed and it's just extra errata), just drop the Defense to 14. Then outside of things like HK-47 and GGDAC squads it's generally always worse than a Rodian Brute unless you're specifically using it for Relay Orders. 16 Defense might be better from a competitive standpoint as it makes it more of a trade off between Brute vs Mouse.

Letting other characters move through it creates all sorts of rules questions. What if a character gets Force Pushed into the same square as a Mouse? What about SBM? Changing the defense creates no questions at all and fixes both the issue of it being used for walls and for cover, since a Brute could be used just as well for those things but also Attack and benefit from CEs.

Changing Panaka's CE to Double instead of Twin makes Naboo squads (which are already not tier 1) unplayable.

_________________
"An elegant, easy-to-understand concept or mechanic that accomplishes 95% of what you want is much better than a clunky, obtuse mechanic that gets you 100%" - Rob Daviau

"You can't per aspera ad astra unless there's some aspera in front of your astra. And that means sometimes the aspera gets you." - Donald X. Vaccarino


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Balance Commitiee current topics
PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 1:20 pm 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle

Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:39 am
Posts: 4863
Chiming in...

1. Floor Rules change for Rapport (3 points being the limit)
Glad it's in.

2. Force Ghosts counting as living
No change needed. It's a smash-and-run non-engagement squad, but it's not causing a problem in the game.

3. Boba AFH
No change needed. Maybe should have cost a few more, but not worth changing. But if he is changed, cost 60 would probably be fine. (Change a 50 to a 60 with a pen... no new card needed.)

4. Commando Droid Officer
He replaces the BDO in a squad, so he effectively costs 8 less than his printed cost. Whatever the fix, he needs extra attention to make sure he's okay.

5. NeoCrusader Officer
An oops, but not worth changing. The all-Cloaked Mando squad is still better than a NeoCrusader Officer squad. If changing anything, change the CE to "non-Unique followers". Just "followers" would probably be fine, but if it's being changed anyway, might as well future-proof it.

6. Imperial Governor
Simply banned. Not worth reprinting. Leave it unchanged for scenarios, etc.

7. Poggle the Lesser
Rapport change probably fixes him.

8. Klatooinian Assassin
Cost 18. Very easy to turn a "12" into an "18" with a pen. No card re-print required. :)

9. Mouse Droids
I think they're probably okay as is with the Rapport change. But I'd be fine with "Tiny" saying they don't block movement. No changes to targeting. No automatic defeat or automatic movement. I'd vote for that it doesn't block movement just based on the outcry the piece has had, not because I see the need for it myself.

10. SBM
I doubt this is unbiased, but I don't think it needs a change. If it is changed, changing it to once per turn as Jason suggested is probably better than disallowing pit movement.

Disallowing pit movement would introduce an entirely different type of "involuntary movement", which is another rules complexity. (Every other type of involuntary movement would then beg the question: "Is this Push-type involuntary movement or SBM-type involuntary movement?") Changing it to "once per turn" would keep the change localized to SBM only.

11.Whether a squad can be able to include pieces that have bribery as well as pieces that have reinforcements.

No change needed.


In general, I'm voting for few changes and when there are changes I favor a simple re-cost of a piece. Summary:
* Ban Imperial Governor
* Klat to cost 18
* Mouse droids get "Tiny" and no longer block movement.
* CDO... not sure what "fixes" him, but his return is the biggest concern to me.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Balance Commitiee current topics
PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 1:21 pm 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle

Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:39 am
Posts: 4863
Echo wrote:
16 Defense might be better from a competitive standpoint as it makes it more of a trade off between Brute vs Mouse.


ninja'd.

16 defense is a good idea, too. Certainly simpler than introducing "Tiny".


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Balance Commitiee current topics
PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 1:30 pm 
Death Star Designers
Death Star Designers
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2009 8:57 pm
Posts: 3502
Further thoughts on defense change for Mice instead of Tiny:

There have been lots of comments/squads on Bloo that basically involve posting a squad with a bunch of Mice and no Gha and saying "Rapport isn't the only problem with mice!", basically with the point that you can still get a ton of acts with 3 point mice. That's true! And adding Tiny doesn't do a damn thing to fix that. Either A) people will still play a ton of mice for an activation advantage, or B) people will play Rodian Brutes instead, getting the same number of acts except now they get small attackers out of it. Sure, it's a little less effective at making walls, but the problem just doesn't get solved. Spamming activations is a result of how the game works, not a Mouse Droid problem. Adding very complicated errata like Tiny which will need a large glossary entry explaining a number of new rules to not even solve the actual problem feels foolish.

I think that just changing Rapport is enough to make Mice less of a problem; they're only really an issue in certain metas anyway. If something DOES get changed, 14-16 Defense (or a point cost of 4 or 5 if you'd prefer) is a far better solution than new game rules.

_________________
"An elegant, easy-to-understand concept or mechanic that accomplishes 95% of what you want is much better than a clunky, obtuse mechanic that gets you 100%" - Rob Daviau

"You can't per aspera ad astra unless there's some aspera in front of your astra. And that means sometimes the aspera gets you." - Donald X. Vaccarino


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Balance Commitiee current topics
PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 1:57 pm 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle

Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:39 am
Posts: 4863
Echo wrote:
Adding very complicated errata like Tiny which will need a large glossary entry explaining a number of new rules to not even solve the actual problem feels foolish.


You make a good case. Defense 16 would probably solve the issue. Or cost 4. Either way. Much simpler.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Balance Commitiee current topics
PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 2:40 pm 
Master of the Order
Master of the Order
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 8:01 pm
Posts: 6662
Location: Chicago, IL
My Chiming in...

<copied TJs answers and changed when I disagreed>

1. Floor Rules change for Rapport (3 points being the limit)
Cool

2. Force Ghosts counting as living
Change it. It only effects a non-engagement squad, that is not good for the game regardless of how competitive it is. Other advantages are that its a token nod to the community (not that this should ever be a deciding factor but it is icing on the cake). Simple fix - New SA: "Nonliving". Undefined on card.

3. Boba AFH
<agree with TJ>
No change needed. Maybe should have cost a few more, but not worth changing. But if he is changed, cost 60 would probably be fine. (Change a 50 to a 60 with a pen... no new card needed.)


4. Commando Droid Officer
All in on WotC commando droids. Cannon shot only to them. Cost can stay the same then.


5. NeoCrusader Officer
CE to Neo Crusader followers only.
(Maybe the other neos would see play)


6. Imperial Governor
<agree with TJ>
Simply banned. Not worth reprinting. Leave it unchanged for scenarios, etc.

7. Poggle the Lesser
Rapport change probably fixes him. Cost 12-15 to be sure.

8. Klatooinian Assassin
<agree with TJ>
Cost 18. Very easy to turn a "12" into an "18" with a pen. No card re-print required. :)

9. Mouse Droids
<agree with TJ>
I think they're probably okay as is with the Rapport change. But I'd be fine with "Tiny" saying they don't block movement. No changes to targeting. No automatic defeat or automatic movement. I'd vote for that it doesn't block movement just based on the outcry the piece has had, not because I see the need for it myself.

Side note - I don't understand why this is so complex. Essentially it's the exact same as other characters gaining flight only vs mouse droids, right?

10. SBM
change it to once per turn as Jason suggested. Perhaps disallow pit movement as well.

11.Whether a squad can be able to include pieces that have bribery as well as pieces that have reinforcements.

Definite change needed.

Floor rule change:

Only 1 per squad (bribery/reinforcements)
AND
Reserves are null in competitive play

Or

Only 1 per squad (bribery/reinforcements/reserves)

Reasons: Amplifies spamming, out activating. Greatly increases set up time.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Balance Commitiee current topics
PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 3:00 pm 
Master of the Order
Master of the Order
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 8:01 pm
Posts: 6662
Location: Chicago, IL
If be fine with the defense change for mice as well.

The issue is that there is not "a" problem with mouse droids. There are several.

Cost has been addressed by rapport change

Too high Defense can be solved by defense decrease.

Mouse walls blocking movement is not solved unless something like Tiny is added.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: Balance Commitiee current topics
PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 6:57 pm 
Really Cool Alien from a Cantina
Really Cool Alien from a Cantina
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2009 8:07 pm
Posts: 159
seams to be alot of this is fine, and that is fine.
Boba is under costed, to not change that, is to ignore,community
requests, an increase cost of 5-9 pts would satisfy man people.
lowering mouse defense is not enough.
If you think that solves the problem, then maybe you don't understand
the problem.
forcing Han to shoot a mouse, just because it is in front of a rancor is just
plain nuts.
number of mice in a squad matters not.
the fact that characters gain cover from them, and have to target them instead of
a real enemy, are the major complaints.
don't complicate things to much.
the safety of the planet is NOT at stake :r2line:

_________________
Life!? Don't talk to me about life!
Loathe it, or ignore it.
You can't like it.-Marvin


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 53 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours

Mark forums read

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
Jedi Knights style by Scott Stubblefield