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Inside the mind of a designer - Boba Assasin for Hire
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Author:  LESHIPPY [ Fri Aug 14, 2015 12:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Inside the mind of a designer - Boba Assasin for Hire

Since there has been much discussion on this piece I went back and dusted off the design threads for him.

Quote:
This was probably one of the toughest pieces I have helped design. 9 pages of stats and comments to read through if you are interested. We knew that going into this we had to get this piece as close to "right" as possible or there would be an outcry from you guys. I hope we succeeded in our effort.


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Post subject: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 12:40 pm
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start
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Lou Offline
Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 10:11 pm
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My backpack has jets
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Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:11 am
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Quote:
Quote:
Boba Fett, Assassin for Hire
Fringe, 50pts

HP: 110
Def: 20
Att: +10
Dmg: 20

SAs:
Unique
Triple Attack (On his turn, this character can make 2 extra attacks instead of moving)
Greater Mobile Attack (Can move both before and after attacking. This character can make extra attacks even if he moves this turn, but he must make them all before resuming movement.)
Accurate Shot (Can attack an enemy with cover even if it's not the nearest enemy)
Beskar'gam (When this character takes damage, it reduces the damage dealt by 10 with a save of 11)
Bounty Hunter +4 (+4 Attack against Unique enemies)
Cunning Attack (+4 Attack and +10 Damage against an enemy who has not activated this round)
Flight (Ignores difficult terrain, enemy characters, low objects, and pits when moving)

Commander Effect:
Each follower that ends its move within 6 squares of this character can move 2 extra squares at the end of its turn.



My hope with Boba is to design a piece that will challenge Cad for table time in some builds; not replace him, but at least give a viable alternative. I'd like him to cost 50, because it harkens back to the original RS Boba (and I'd suggest that piece for his RM). 50 also keeps him in the Cad's cost-range.

He needs a CE in order to avoid the various Twin CEs (Whorm, some Mando builds). I don't care if the CE changes...he just needs one.

Maybe add Evade? May need to drop Beskargam if we do.
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Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 10:42 am
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I would add evade and assassin instead of cunning.
What about Ruthless.
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Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 12:22 pm
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Quote:
Lou wrote:
I would add evade and assassin instead of cunning.
What about Ruthless.


Agree on the assassin instead of cunning.

Evade and Beskar'gam for only 50? I think you only get one or the other at this price point.
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Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 1:31 pm
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Quote:
LESHIPPY wrote:
Quote:
Lou wrote:
I would add evade and assassin instead of cunning.
What about Ruthless.

Agree on the assassin instead of cunning.

Evade and Beskar'gam for only 50? I think you only get one or the other at this price point.


Assassin is cool, but my concern is that I don't want him to be overpowered. I figured that Cunning is generally less useful than Assassin:
-most enemies are living and so Assassin tends to be effective all through the round in most cases, while Cunning only works near the beginning of the round
-Cunning won't stack with Thrawn's Opportunist, which Assassin will. Cad does 120 with Thrawn, so I guess it would be ok if Boba did too...but Boba has Accurate and more hp (though no Stealth), both of which are a significant benefit over Cad in that squad.

Also, it seems like Cunning is part of Boba's flavor (Boba Merc, Boba MC). All that said, I'm okay with Assassin too...let's just be careful, that's all. I want him to be really good (he's Boba, after all!) but not broken.

I think I'd prefer Evade over Beskargam too. There are a number of ways to get Evade, and what we don't want is an unkillable ranged tank (which the Evade/Armor combo could lead to), especially with 110hp.

What about the CE? Do you guys have any suggestions for an alternative? I just kinda threw it in there as a placeholder (though it's not a bad option).
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Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 1:33 pm
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Updated with Assassin over Cunning and Evade over Beskargam.
Quote:
Quote:
Boba Fett, Assassin for Hire
Fringe, 50pts

HP: 110
Def: 20
Att: +10
Dmg: 20

SAs:
Unique
Triple Attack (On his turn, this character can make 2 extra attacks instead of moving)
Greater Mobile Attack (Can move both before and after attacking. This character can make extra attacks even if he moves this turn, but he must make them all before resuming movement.)
Accurate Shot (Can attack an enemy with cover even if it's not the nearest enemy)
Assassin (+4 Attack and +10 Damage against living enemies)
Bounty Hunter +4 (+4 Attack against Unique enemies)
Evade (When hit by an attack from a nonadjacent enemy, this character takes no damage with a save of 11)
Flight (Ignores difficult terrain, enemy characters, low objects, and pits when moving)

Commander Effect:
Each follower that ends its move within 6 squares of this character can move 2 extra squares at the end of its turn.

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Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 2:39 pm
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I he gets Assassin, I would like to see his Atk drop by 2, and get Bounty Hunter +6.

And would probably change his CE to Bounty Hunters.
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Lou Offline
Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 3:21 pm
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What does Talon Carrde do for this guy?
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Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 3:54 pm
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Basically the same thing that Thrawn does: +4/+10. He also gains Ysalamiri in some builds (same as with Imps)
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Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 3:58 pm
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Sithborg wrote:
I he gets Assassin, I would like to see his Atk drop by 2, and get Bounty Hunter +6.

And would probably change his CE to Bounty Hunters.

That's partially why I prefer Cunning: it's less powerful, so his base attack can stay at +10. I can't see a 50pt attack piece having a mere +8 attack. Obviously it can get to +18 in some situations, but I'd rather it have less variance than more.

Good idea on moving the CE to BHs. He could be interesting (though expensive) with the new Separatist Cad BH. Pieces could charge (Cad's CE) and then move 2 squares to hide.
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Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 8:25 am
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I think we need to give him something new. Because he really doesn't feel like anything that isn't already in the game.

Flash-Bang Grenades - Replace attacks - Target and each character within 6 of this target are considered activated save, 11.
Stun Gas 4 - On this characters turn, Living characters within 4 of this character are considered activated this round.

SPOILER ALERT
Or I still think that after reading the new Tim Zahn book Boba could be a guy that organizes bounty hunters/smugglers. Hell Han, Chewy, and Lando almost fell for it. Basically he organized a team to break in and steal stuff while he was able to hit his target.

If you squad only contains fringe pieces, Unique Fringe pieces cost 5 less.
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Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 12:23 pm
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He is really an attacking piece, so there are some aspects of his character that are going to be "normal." He only has a CE to prevent him getting Twin in either Seps or Mandos. Still, there are ways that we can make him more interesting.

I do like the Rapport 5 idea for fringe uniques, but that will effectively reduce his cost to 30 or less in many squads (Lando DS for 13pts, Evazan for 11, Gha for 7, Lobot for 22), which would be broken. Maybe the rapport could be for BHs and characters whose name contains Smugglers, to limit it.

The Epic Boba has Critical Wound (target is activated on a crit, no save), and that could be cool.

Other options:
Honed Reflexes [This character can reroll one failed save per turn, at a -2 penalty]

I just don't think we should make him too powerful, because he should only challenge Cad for table time, not eclipse him.

Quote:
Quote:
Boba Fett, Assassin for Hire
Fringe, 50pts

HP: 110
Def: 20
Att: +10
Dmg: 20

SAs:
Unique
Triple Attack (On his turn, this character can make 2 extra attacks instead of moving)
Greater Mobile Attack (Can move both before and after attacking. This character can make extra attacks even if he moves this turn, but he must make them all before resuming movement.)
Accurate Shot (Can attack an enemy with cover even if it's not the nearest enemy)
Assassin (+4 Attack and +10 Damage against living enemies)
Bounty Hunter +4 (+4 Attack against Unique enemies)
Evade (When hit by an attack from a nonadjacent enemy, this character takes no damage with a save of 11)
Flight (Ignores difficult terrain, enemy characters, low objects, and pits when moving)

Commander Effect:
Each Fringe follower that ends its move within 6 squares of this character can move 2 extra squares at the end of its turn.


Changed CE to affect Fringe followers.
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Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 1:30 pm
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Absolutely not on the super Rapport for Fringe Uniques. Thank Salicious Crumb, but there are enough in the point range, that you it will cause problems. Now and in the future.
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Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 4:51 pm
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Quote:
Sithborg wrote:
Absolutely not on the super Rapport for Fringe Uniques. Thank Salicious Crumb, but there are enough in the point range, that you it will cause problems. Now and in the future
.


Didn't think of him.
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Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:33 pm
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My issue with the current stats is that he is better than Cad Bane 9/10 times. Better stats, better damage output. He isn't limited by targeting rules and can attack more characters than Cad. Cad's benefits are being a follower and Stealth. I just don't see that offsetting this Fett being cheaper and better in a LOT of ways than Cad.
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Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:48 am
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I just thinking that making another power shooter is unimaginative. Don't take offense, but I think this is a piece that should bring something new or at least a new twist.

Yes this Boba Fett a bad ass, but I think we need to some how capture that he was able to think a few moves ahead of his target and use his resources to gain an advantage.

I like the Critical Wound Ability. I also think the Overload ability might be good on him as well. Paired with some new SA good be interesting Flash-Bang Grenades - Replace attacks - Target and each character within 6 of this target are considered activated save, 11.
Stun Gas 4 - Replace Attacks, Living characters within 4 of this character are considered activated this round Save 11.

Quote:
Quote:
Boba Fett, Assassin for Hire
Fringe, 60pts

HP: 130
Def: 20
Att: +12
Dmg: 20

SAs:
Unique
Double Attack (On his turn, this character can make an extra attacks instead of moving)
Twin
Accurate Shot (Can attack an enemy with cover even if it's not the nearest enemy)
Bounty Hunter +6 (+4 Attack against Unique enemies)
Evade (When hit by an attack from a nonadjacent enemy, this character takes no damage with a save of 11)
Critical Wound
Flight (Ignores difficult terrain, enemy characters, low objects, and pits when moving)
Flash-Bang Grenades - Replace attacks - Target and each character within 6 of this target are considered activated save, 11.
Stun Gas 4 - Replace Attacks, Living characters within 4 of this character are considered activated this round Save 11.
Mobile Attack

CE - This character or an ally that ends it move within 6 squares of this character may make an immediate attack.




So he can move and double twin or move and have to chances to activate folks at a distance or close by then twin one of them.
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Lou Offline
Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 11:42 am
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I think Boba should be one of if not the best piece in the set. :Boba:
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Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:43 pm
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Lou: I agree that he should be one of the best in the set (if not the best).

Scott: I hear you about him being better than Cad 90% of the time. What if we dropped Assassin/Cunning? Would that make a difference? That drops his damage below Cad’s. That would mean Cad has the edge with more damage output and stealth and follower, but Boba would have better stats and could pick his targets more easily. Different roles, but still comparable.

Les: No offense taken. :) I do like your angle about him staying 1 step ahead. I agree that he needs a little something. However, if he’s a powerful shooter then I can’t see any Replaces Attacks being used very often. Overload is a cool SA (love the new Shae Visla), but it would kinda shoehorn him into a mold which is all about the Replaces Attacks SAs.

What about something like this:
Wrist Cable (At the end of this character’s turn, one target enemy within 6 squares cannot move this round, save 11.)

It would represent him staying one step ahead of his opponents. That, combined with Critical Wound (won’t occur often) will give him a cool angle.

We could also change his CE to give him a more unique flavor. Maybe something like: “Fringe followers gain Flash Bang” or something.
Quote:
Quote:
Boba Fett, Assassin for Hire
Fringe, 50pts

HP: 110
Def: 20
Att: +12
Dmg: 20

SAs:
Unique
Triple Attack (On his turn, this character can make 2 extra attacks instead of moving)
Greater Mobile Attack (Can move both before and after attacking. This character can make extra attacks even if he moves this turn, but he must make them all before resuming movement.)
Accurate Shot (Can attack an enemy with cover even if it's not the nearest enemy)
Bounty Hunter +4 (+4 Attack against Unique enemies)
Critical Wound (An enemy hit by a critical hit from this character is considered activated this round)
Evade (When hit by an attack from a nonadjacent enemy, this character takes no damage with a save of 11)
Flight (Ignores difficult terrain, enemy characters, low objects, and pits when moving)
Wrist Cable (At the end of this character’s turn, one target enemy within 6 squares cannot move this round, save 11.)

Commander Effect:
Each Fringe follower that ends its move within 6 squares of this character can move 2 extra squares at the end of its turn.


Changed Att to +12 (and BH +4) to give him +16 at best. Added Critical Wound and Wrist Cable, removed Assassin.

Now he does 60dmg max (outside of Thrawn or Xizor’s CEs) and activates people. I’m thinking his CE could change to give a cool activation-or-stay-ahead-of-enemies kind of effect.

Maybe give him Beskargam (save 11) instead of Evade? IMHO Beskargam is less valuable than Evade, but it does give him a bit of defense against adjacent enemies (where Evade falls flat).

Is he still overpowered? Is he starting to get interesting yet?
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Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:56 pm
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what if he had a quick reaction ability to deal with flight guys. I don't have time to look it up right now, but I wanted to get it down before i forgot it.
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Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 2:10 pm
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I like it. I think you mean Quick Draw:

Quick Draw (This character can make an attack of opportunity against enemies with special abilities or Force powers that ignore characters while moving)

EDIT: That would actually work well as a CE for Fringe followers too.
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ou Offline
Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 11:27 pm
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Boba Fett, Assassin for Hire
Fringe, 50pts

HP: 110
Def: 20
Att: +12
Dmg: 20

SAs:
Unique
Triple Attack (On his turn, this character can make 2 extra attacks instead of moving)
Greater Mobile Attack (Can move both before and after attacking. This character can make extra attacks even if he moves this turn, but he must make them all before resuming movement.)
Accurate Shot (Can attack an enemy with cover even if it's not the nearest enemy)
Bounty Hunter +4 (+4 Attack against Unique enemies)
Critical Wound (An enemy hit by a critical hit from this character is considered activated this round)
Evade (When hit by an attack from a nonadjacent enemy, this character takes no damage with a save of 11)
Flight (Ignores difficult terrain, enemy characters, low objects, and pits when moving)
Wrist Cable (At the end of this character’s turn, one target enemy within 6 squares cannot move this round, save 11.)

Commander Effect:
Each Fringe follower that ends its move within 6 squares of this character can move 2 extra squares at the end of its turn.



I would cost this a little cheaper probably around 43-45 if we have 4pt minis that can do 30 unpreventable damage then the big shooters should have a reason to be played.
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Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 12:50 am
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lol...not all 4pt pieces do 30 unpreventable dmg.

If possible I'd really like him to cost 50. Maybe that's just silly of me, though.

I think triple accurate with GMA and Evade is already pretty solid. The wrist cable thing and critical wound make for some nasty activation/screw-you kind of effects. I think his CE can be improved in a big way.

I'm leary of increasing his dmg output though, since he'll then equal Cad for damage and therefore outshine him (because Accurate is so valuable).

Of course, we could always give him the old tried and true SA: Disintegration. :shock:
j/k :lol:
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Lou Offline
Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 3:01 pm
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How about adding this: replaces attacks this may make 4 attacks against the same target at +10 damage. If we want him to cost 50ish
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Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 3:39 pm
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Quote:
Lou wrote:
How about adding this: replaces attacks this may make 4 attacks against the same target at +10 damage. If we want him to cost 50ish


So he does 120 accurate damage on the move every turn, in addition to any dmg boosts? That's worth way more than 50pts. That's more than the Epic Boba can do.

Or did you mean -10 dmg? If so, I don't think it would get used. 60dmg with triple or 40 with the mini-quad attack. Or if he had a dmg boost (ABM, Thrawn, etc) then it would be 90 with triple and 80 with the mini-quad.
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Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 8:13 am
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Quote:
thereisnotry wrote:
I like it. I think you mean Quick Draw:

Quick Draw (This character can make an attack of opportunity against enemies with special abilities or Force powers that ignore characters while moving)

EDIT: That would actually work well as a CE for Fringe followers too.



Yep and I like this for the CE better then the move 2 squares.
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Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:06 am
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Quote:
Quote:
Boba Fett, Assassin for Hire
Fringe, 50pts

HP: 110
Def: 20
Att: +12
Dmg: 20

SAs:
Unique
Triple Attack (On his turn, this character can make 2 extra attacks instead of moving)
Greater Mobile Attack (Can move both before and after attacking. This character can make extra attacks even if he moves this turn, but he must make them all before resuming movement.)
Accurate Shot (Can attack an enemy with cover even if it's not the nearest enemy)
Bounty Hunter +4 (+4 Attack against Unique enemies)
Critical Wound (An enemy hit by a critical hit from this character is considered activated this round)
Evade (When hit by an attack from a nonadjacent enemy, this character takes no damage with a save of 11)
Flight (Ignores difficult terrain, enemy characters, low objects, and pits when moving)
Quick Draw (This character can make an attack of opportunity against enemies with special abilities or Force powers that ignore characters while moving)
Wrist Cable (At the end of this character’s turn, one target enemy within 6 squares cannot move this round, save 11.)

Commander Effect:
Fringe followers gain Quick Draw


Updated with Quick Draw changes.

Oh, and also: we don't need to keep his name as "Assassin for Hire." I just threw that on there while brainstorming. I'm kinda in favor of "Boba Fett, Bad @$$ Bounty Hunter" :) Or else Boba Fett, Relentless Hunter or something.
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Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 9:44 pm
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I was thinking about this piece this evening and I still think it needs something...different.

Expert Planner or Strategic Planner pick what ever name we want to give it. Once a game, this character may be the only character activated in a phase or it may activate as a third activation in your phase.

I think I would like something like this more then wrist cable, which is more just flavor then will ever be used. Because really when are you ever going to skip shooting someone three times compared to stunning them?
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Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 11:58 pm
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Quote:
LESHIPPY wrote:
I think I would like something like this more then wrist cable, which is more just flavor then will ever be used. Because really when are you ever going to skip shooting someone three times compared to stunning them?


Did you see that I wrote Wrist Cable as an "on this character's turn" ability? It allows him to shoot someone and then potentially activate them when they're close.

I do think his CE is a great place for the planning/tactics angle you're thinking of.
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Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 1:03 am
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Brainstorming:

-We could give him RS tarkin's CE.
-he could give Battle Ready to BH followers.
-he could allow BH followers to set up anywhere on their half of the map
-once per game, this character can activate during your opponent's phase, after your opponent's first piece of the phase has activated

Just some food for thought.
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Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 10:00 am
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Quote:
thereisnotry wrote:
Did you see that I wrote Wrist Cable as an "on this character's turn" ability? It allows him to shoot someone and then potentially activate them when they're close.



Nope in skimming it I missed that part. Much more effective then.
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Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 10:32 pm
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Quote:
thereisnotry wrote:
Brainstorming:

-We could give him RS tarkin's CE.
-he could give Battle Ready to BH followers.
-he could allow BH followers to set up anywhere on their half of the map
-once per game, this character can activate during your opponent's phase, after your opponent's first piece of the phase has activated

Just some food for thought.



1. Fringe activation control, even Tarkin's, is a dangerous idea.
2&3: Not a fan of how quickly these abilities set things up.
4: [runs from the room screaming]
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Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:43 pm
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Lol...no problem, Scott! Just brainstorming. I'm just trying to explore interesting "one step ahead" type of possibilities. Do you have any cool suggestions?

Personally, I'm thinking his card is looking pretty stacked right now (we'll probably have to drop some things), so I'm not sure what we can do.

I do like Les' idea of representing his one-step-ahead skills. I think the best area might be via CE since 1) he can't be a follower and 2) a cool and flavorful CE would really put icing on the cake.
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Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 10:00 pm
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I had a thought on Boba. What if we had a new SA that was something like this

Expert Bounty Hunter (This character cannot benefit from CE's that increase his attack or damage stats.) - name subject to change

This would allow him to be a follower, but not have to be stated down to deal with Thrawn type CEs
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kezzamachine Offline
Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 10:10 pm
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Just a thought: you could give him a Special Ability like Aing Tii Flowwalking, but make it a one-time ability? Or maybe give him Zam's ability that makes folk fail saves on or next to cover.
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thereisnotry Offline
Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 1:59 pm
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Interesting ideas; thanks Kaz!

Rigged Detonators is a cool idea that has only been used once. It would negate Evade, Soresu, LSDeflect, and LSDefense; that's cool...and really useful with Accurate. I'd be interested to hear what the other designers think. Maybe that would be the "something special" that this piece needs in order to stand out.

The Aing-Tii idea is interesting, but probably too powerful. I could envision an Imperial squad where Boba gets swapped in at the end of the round, makes 6 attacks (2 turns) for 180 damage, and then gets swapped out next round. Even if he can only do it once, it'll be really difficult for the opponent to recover. That's far and away better than any Cad Bane swap option.
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LESHIPPY Online
Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 12:10 pm
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I like the idea of rigged detonators.

So I talked with my buddy Rich who I playtest with and he said this. "This is just another shooting Boba. Don't we have enough of those already. Can't you guys do anything more creative?" I just want to put that out there. These are the stats he was looking at. He did liek the wrist cable idea.

Quote:
Quote:
Boba Fett, Assassin for Hire
Fringe, 50pts

HP: 110
Def: 20
Att: +12
Dmg: 20

SAs:
Unique
Triple Attack (On his turn, this character can make 2 extra attacks instead of moving)
Greater Mobile Attack (Can move both before and after attacking. This character can make extra attacks even if he moves this turn, but he must make them all before resuming movement.)
Accurate Shot (Can attack an enemy with cover even if it's not the nearest enemy)
Bounty Hunter +4 (+4 Attack against Unique enemies)
Critical Wound (An enemy hit by a critical hit from this character is considered activated this round)
Evade (When hit by an attack from a nonadjacent enemy, this character takes no damage with a save of 11)
Flight (Ignores difficult terrain, enemy characters, low objects, and pits when moving)
Quick Draw (This character can make an attack of opportunity against enemies with special abilities or Force powers that ignore characters while moving)
Wrist Cable (At the end of this character’s turn, one target enemy within 6 squares cannot move this round, save 11.)

Commander Effect:
Fringe followers gain Quick Draw

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thereisnotry Offline
Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 1:06 pm
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Maybe his CE can give out Wrist Cable....

Quote:
Quote:
Commander Effect:
Bounty Hunter allies gain Wrist Cable.


I don't think he can give it out to Fringe followers...Uggies using wrist cable is just a little bit too munchkin for me. :)
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thereisnotry Offline
Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 1:25 pm
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Yes, he is a shooting Boba. The question is, how many of the Bobas are currently used in competitive play? Maybe Boba MC in Mandos (with Resurrector and Kelborn). Boba Merc with Whorm squads (but that is still not very usable) is the best option for any Fringe Boba, and that squad doesn't really have what it takes. There is no Fringe Boba that is currently worth playing; they are all too expensive for what they do, which is why Cad is the sole go-to piece in that point range.

My whole intention with this piece is to make a shooter piece that challenges Cad Bane for table time. Give people another option for a high-powered fringe shooter, because right now there is no other. Zam BH is cool, but she's not really a shooter so much, and she plays very differently.

I really like the ideas people have shared about giving him a one-step-ahead flavor; maybe if he had more oomph in that direction then your friend would think this piece is interesting.
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LESHIPPY Online
Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 3:50 pm
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Quote:
thereisnotry wrote:
Maybe his CE can give out Wrist Cable....

Quote:
Quote:
Commander Effect:
Bounty Hunter allies gain Wrist Cable.


I don't think he can give it out to Fringe followers...Uggies using wrist cable is just a little bit too munchkin for me. :)



What if we went with Unique Fringe Followers for the CE? Or Followers who cost 12 or more gain Wrist cable?
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Author:  LESHIPPY [ Fri Aug 14, 2015 12:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Inside the mind of a designer - Boba Assasin for Hire

thereisnotry Offline
Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 7:02 pm
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Quote:
LESHIPPY wrote:
Quote:
thereisnotry wrote:
Maybe his CE can give out Wrist Cable....

Quote:
Quote:
Commander Effect:
Bounty Hunter allies gain Wrist Cable.

I don't think he can give it out to Fringe followers...Uggies using wrist cable is just a little bit too munchkin for me. :)


What if we went with Unique Fringe Followers for the CE? Or Followers who cost 12 or more gain Wrist cable?


Unique Fringe followers gain Wrist Cable.
I like that.
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thereisnotry Offline
Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 7:07 pm
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Quote:
Quote:
Boba Fett, Assassin for Hire
Fringe, 50pts

HP: 110
Def: 20
Att: +12
Dmg: 20

Special Abilities:
Unique
Triple Attack (On his turn, this character can make 2 extra attacks instead of moving)
Greater Mobile Attack (Can move both before and after attacking. This character can make extra attacks even if he moves this turn, but he must make them all before resuming movement.)
Accurate Shot (Can attack an enemy with cover even if it's not the nearest enemy)
Bounty Hunter +4 (+4 Attack against Unique enemies)
Critical Wound (An enemy hit by a critical hit from this character is considered activated this round)
Evade (When hit by an attack from a nonadjacent enemy, this character takes no damage with a save of 11)
Flight (Ignores difficult terrain, enemy characters, low objects, and pits when moving)
Quick Draw (This character can make an attack of opportunity against enemies with special abilities or Force powers that ignore characters while moving)
Wrist Cable (At the end of this character’s turn, one target enemy within 6 squares cannot move this round, save 11.)

Commander Effect:
Unique Fringe followers gain Wrist Cable.


PT?
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LESHIPPY Online
Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 8:34 am
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Sent to Dave
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swinefeld Offline
Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 2:39 pm
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added
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Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:38 pm
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we need to make sure this guy gets tested with the Sep Cad Bane.

Thinking the base Would be Sep Cad new Boba and either Aurra Assassin or Assajj Night Sister. That leaves about 80ish points to play with
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thereisnotry Offline
Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:56 am
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I think the CE needs to be for BH allies...Salacious Crumb and Wicket using Wrist Cable is just not right.


Another option that I thought of was an Intuition-type CE (kinda like Talon Karrde's).
"Once per round after initiative is determined, this character or one Bounty Hunter ally within 6 squares may immediately move up to its speed." That's exactly about his ability to stay 1 step ahead of his enemies, and also about his ability to lead/command others on the mission.

Thoughts?
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LESHIPPY Online
Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 12:06 pm
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I disagree and would like to leave it to playtesting.
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Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 11:52 am
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What if we went with this for the?

Bounty Hunter followers with in 6 gain. [Flash-Bang Grenades] - Replace attacks - Target and each character within 3 of this target are considered activated save, 11.
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thereisnotry Offline
Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 9:37 pm
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I hear the weight of the PT comments, especially about Wrist Cable being an NPE (as currently worded). The only reason for his CE is to keep him from being stupid in Seps; one of the PTs already suggested that Boba is good for his cost, so I'm hesitant to let his CE be good.

Maybe something like this?
Quote:
Quote:
CE: At the end of this character's turn, one BH ally within 6 squares can move up to 2 squares.


It's not a big movement breaker, but it works great for door-tricks (Boba wins init, shoots something and moves away, then his BH ally who's holding the door open moves away from it, closing the door). Again it's a one-step-ahead thing. And 2 squares isn't a lot. But it can help Durge or someone else set up for a multi-attack turn.

Quote:
Quote:
CE: Unique BH allies gain Quick Draw.

Again, it's really not all that helpful against anything but strafers or leapers.

I think either of these is a viable alternative to the current CE. I'd like to see other suggestions too.
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LESHIPPY Online
Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:36 am
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I would be fine with testing either of these.

Quote:
Quote:
CE: At the end of this character's turn, one BH ally within 6 squares can move up to 2 squares.



Quote:
Quote:
Bounty Hunter followers with in 6 gain. [Flash-Bang Grenades] - Replace attacks - Target and each character within 3 of this target are considered activated save, 11.

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thereisnotry Offline
Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:44 am
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Flashbang grenades are pretty powerful (kinda like a mini-sith-sorcery), and can be used by lots of pieces if we allow BH allies/followers. The 6pt Snivvian Fringer would become quite a problem, I think.
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Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 9:19 pm
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Fair enough.

Change CE to
Quote:
Quote:
At the end of this character's turn, one BH ally within 6 squares can move up to 2 squares
.



PT
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thereisnotry Offline
Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:13 pm
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Yes, PT.

Quote:
Quote:
30/45 Boba Fett, Assassin for Hire 50pts
(R) Fringe

HP: 110
Def: 20
Att: +12
Dmg: 20

Special Abilities
Unique

Triple Attack (On his turn, this character can make 2 extra attacks instead of moving)

Greater Mobile Attack (Can move both before and after attacking. This character can make extra attacks even if he moves this turn, but he must make them all before resuming movement.)

Accurate Shot (Can attack an enemy with cover even if it's not the nearest enemy)

Bounty Hunter +4 (+4 Attack against Unique enemies)

Critical Wound (An enemy hit by a critical hit from this character is considered activated this round)

Evade (When hit by an attack from a nonadjacent enemy, this character takes no damage with a save of 11)

Flight (Ignores difficult terrain, enemy characters, low objects, and pits when moving)

Quick Draw (This character can make an attack of opportunity against enemies with special abilities or Force powers that ignore characters while moving)

Wrist Cable (At the end of this character’s turn, one target enemy within 6 squares cannot move this round, save 11.)


Commander Effect
At the end of this character's turn, one Bounty Hunter ally within 6 squares can move up to 2 squares.


Sent to Dave.
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Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 2:02 am
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updated CE
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Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 11:59 am
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Me
NEW Mace ATRT with GMA. No stable footing for ATRTs
ATRT x2
Rex
Gen Aayla
Mas
Ugyx2

vs

Rich
NEW Boba played with updated CE
Cad BH
Crimson Nova Guild Leader
Devorian Ass. x3
R7x2
MDx4

Map - Grand Plaza

Thoughts going into it. My Charging vs his charging. He has more shots then I do and has stealthy guys. I might have problems with this squad. I won map he chose the side I wanted being the right side.

Round one positioning Aayla Cloaks
Round 2
Dev1 > ATRT1 miss
Mace>Dev1 miss/FP Hit 40 Dam
Boba>Mace M/H/M 20 Dam
Dev2>Mace hit LS Def-fail 40 Dam
Dev3>Mace Hit LS Def- Made
------
Mace>Dev1 Hit Dead mace move
Rex>MD Hit >R7 miss/hit forgot to move Rex
Dev2 >ATRT1 Hit 30
ATRT1>r7 miss move
Boba>ATRT2 H/H/M 40 DAM
ATRT2>MD hit >Boba Hit/Crit- Evade made
Dev3>ATRT 2 miss
Aayla Gambit
-----------------------
R3
ATRT1>Dev3 H/H
Boba>Rex h/h/h
Rex>R7 H
Mace>Crimson nova GL M-FP RR Miss/Hit
Crimson Nova>Mace Hit-LS DEF fail 30Dam
Cad>Mace H/Crit

By this point in time I had lost an ATRT, Mace and Ugy and had Rex with only 10Hp left and an ATRT with 20 left Compared to his full HP Boba, Cad, an Crimson Nova

this might be hard for you guys to swallow.
Quote:
Quote:
Riches thoughts. This Boba is still boring and unimaginative. It bring nothing interesting or new to the game. Why would I play this piece it only does 60 damage where there are other pieces that do so much more. All he does is shoot three times. Have any of you guys read the book with boba in there. Don't you get how tricky he was? He didn't just stand and blast people. Sure I put 60 on Rex and hit an ATRT, but that was all. Several piece could have done that. This peice is nothing I would build a squad around. It is more of a support piece not the main part of the squad.


So with that we talked about what would make boba interesting. He understand why he can't have access to thrawn's or Whorm's CE. He thinks below might be a better way to go.
Expert Bounty Hunter (This character cannot benefit from CE's that increase his number of attacks, attack stat or damage stats.) Could be just not effected by CE altogether.

Also he thinks he needs something that shows Fett's use of decoy or trickery. We talked through these. Wording needs to be cleaned up of course.
Advanced Draw Fire - When this character is targeted it can swap with a character of the same base size with in 6 squares. That character is now the target. Save 6 for the entire thing

Advanced Body Guard - When hit by an attack swap this character with another character with the same base size and that character takes the damage. Save 6

This one is probably to complicated
Hunter's Decoy - once per skirmish when and medium based, living character, costing 10 points or less is defeated, this character can be moved to the square of the defeated ally.

So his suggestion is leave everything the same. Drop the CE and add Expert Bounty Hunter. Then add one of the above abilities.

I would suggest the Advanced Bodyguard ability be used. First you have to fail your evade save, then this would kick in. Direct damage would still do damage. Which I think makes the Advanced Draw Fire too powerful.

Food for thought. Thoughts?

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thereisnotry Offline
Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 3:13 pm
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Tim's thoughts via PM a couple days ago, after we added the new "move 2" CE:
Quote:
Quote:
I love the new CE on Boba. It feels just right - simply a small useful boost to 1 other character, not over-done at all. In my estimation that completes him to hit the mark of top tier competitive but not broken.


Jake's thoughts a few days ago about the same CE:
Quote:
Quote:
One last thing. I love your idea of a BH moving 2 squares afters Boba's turn. It's fitting and simple. Perfect to fill him out when he was good from the PT results.


Someone's thoughts from a few weeks ago (I'm not giving the name because the comment might be taken personally and I don't want to start a flame war between two people):
Quote:
Quote:
All Boba's have big guns and if this one is a big gun as well then someone will always say he looks the same. To be blunt and brutally honest, if you can't see the difference and think he looks the same as every other Boba then you can't see the bigger picture at all.


In other words, I've had several people tell me that they're loving this Boba. Matt Spry is pretty excited about him too, but he only said so via Skype when we were playtesting one time so I don't have words to quote from a PM. So far your friend Rich is the only person I've heard who thinks this Boba is vanilla and boring. Yes, he's a shooter...but Boba has always been one of the quintessential shooters in the game, so it makes sense that he's a shooter.


As for the ideas you posted, I'm not opposed to looking at them. But I think we need to realize that if Boba can't benefit from any CEs at all then he can't be swapped or boosted at all, which means that we'd better make him superb all on his own, and then he'll probably be worth more than 50pts (and undercosted when viewed in isolation). But then he'll be broken and people will whine about him. Or we cost him appropriately and you'll have to really increase his power and impact on the game.
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Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 3:31 pm
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When you're looking for a high-powered shooter, you're looking for a damage-dealer. 60dmg from a 50pt piece isn't enough. So this Boba either needs a natural damage boost on his card such as Assassin (fitting considering his "Assassin for Hire" name and his reputation)...or else he needs to be able to have that damage increased via CEs/SAs/FPs from other pieces in his squad.

He currently has the CE to prevent him gaining Twin in Seps (via Whorm) and Mandos (via Mirta and the Captain), and that's all. What if we gave him Single Shot Blaster, and no CE? That way he could still be boosted in various squads, but he wouldn't get the evil triple-twin combo that would be bad for the game. Then we could give him the Advanced BG special ability that you suggested.

Or we could give him Assassin on his card and the Expert BH SA that you described, along with Advanced BH. Either of those is fine in my opinion. EDIT: The more I think about it, the more I like this option. Cad requires a big investment before he really shines, but with this build Boba would be a better piece to add to a squad that doesn't have damage-boosts. Cad would be stronger in a squad with damage-boosts, but Boba would be stronger in a squad without them. They wouldn't step on each other's toes, but they would both be about even in power.
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Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 3:52 pm
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Quote:
thereisnotry wrote:

He currently has the CE to prevent him gaining Twin in Seps (via Whorm) and Mandos (via Mirta and the Captain), and that's all.

What if we gave him Single Shot Blaster, and no CE? That way he could still be boosted in various squads, but he wouldn't get the evil triple-twin combo that would be bad for the game. Then we could give him the Advanced BG special ability that you suggested.




I really like the single shot blaster idea. Great thinking!
Then having no CE would allow him to do 90 via various boost. Talon, Thawn, Yularen.

Advanced Body Guard - When hit by an attack, swap this character with another character within 6 quares that has the same base size and that character takes the damage. Save 6

Board wide would be too powerful. IMO

Yes I understand how powerful triple / accurate/ greater mobile is. I just want to let you know what I am hearing. Sort of heard the same thing from the guys from kokomo when they looked through stuff. But we didn't play test it, so I didn't want to post that have no way to back up.
---------------------------------------------
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Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 4:55 pm
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I like the way you've written Advanced BG in your post: it simply has to have a range of 6. I also really like the way that it makes him more of a centerpiece for the squad, because he can swap one of your big beats into position with it or else just let a fodder piece bite the bullet for him. We can test it with a Save of 6, but I'm thinking it may need to go to 11 (a new save for each time he's hit). Recognize that this ability can really stymie several multi-attack pieces.


I think either of these combos can work:

--Single Shot Blaster, Advanced BG...50pts
He'll do 60dmg and have a lot of survivability. He'll be able to receive a lot of different upgrades, but he'll also probably need to receive some sort of dmg boost to really be worth it. He'll be a great option with Thrawn and Talon, and semi-decent with others. In this way, I think he'll probably be competing with Cad quite a bit.

--Expert BH, Advanced BG, Assassin...55pts
He'll do 90dmg and have the same degree of survivability. His damage ceiling will not ever increase, but he won't need it to either, since 90dmg Accurate from a 55pt piece is solid. He'll be worthwhile in a large number of squads, and won't gain much in the Thrawn/Talon squads (though Ysalamiri is always solid). I think we'll continue to see Cad in Thrawn and Talon squads, but Boba in a lot of the other squads where they need a solid self-sufficient shooter with no method of increasing his damage output.


I kinda still like the second option, but it may end up being short on card space. We will be dropping a couple lines for his CE, and I think we could also stand to lose Wrist Cable and/or Quick Draw. I'm a bit concerned that Wrist Cable could make for an NPE when combined with Adv BG...shoot an adjacent melee beat, Wrist Cable him, and then use Adv BG to drop a Brute when that beat takes its turn.
--------------------------------
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Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 5:17 pm
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The more I think about it, the second option has a bit too much power...+20 for 90dmg on his turn, and very survivable. That's gonna be a 60pt piece, so it's probably too much.

Here is what he looks like with the first option:
--Dropped the CE
--Added Single Shot Blaster and Advanced BG
Quote:
Quote:
30/45 Boba Fett, Assassin for Hire 50pts
(R) Fringe

HP: 110
Def: 20
Att: +12
Dmg: 20

Special Abilities
Unique

Triple Attack (On his turn, this character can make 2 extra attacks instead of moving)

Greater Mobile Attack (Can move both before and after attacking. This character can make extra attacks even if he moves this turn, but he must make them all before resuming movement.)

Accurate Shot (Can attack an enemy with cover even if it's not the nearest enemy)

Advanced Body Guard (When hit by an attack, save 11. If successful, this character may change positions with another character within 6 squares that has the same base size and that character takes the damage)

Bounty Hunter +4 (+4 Attack against Unique enemies)

Critical Wound (An enemy hit by a critical hit from this character is considered activated this round)

Evade (When hit by an attack from a nonadjacent enemy, this character takes no damage with a save of 11)

Flight (Ignores difficult terrain, enemy characters, low objects, and pits when moving)

Quick Draw (This character can make an attack of opportunity against enemies with special abilities or Force powers that ignore characters while moving)

Single Shot Blaster (This character cannot gain Twin Attack)

Wrist Cable (At the end of this character’s turn, one target enemy within 6 squares cannot move this round, save 11.)


This comes to 209 words after the base stats. We could drop it to 165 words by dropping Quick Draw (23 words) and Wrist Cable (21 words). The original (with the BH move 2 CE) was 144 words.
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End of page 3#####################
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Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 11:16 pm
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I'm not a fan of Advanced Bodyguard. One, it makes no sense for the bodyguard to send the damage to someone else. Two, I'm not a fan of the swap and then transfer damage.

As it is, it needs a complete rewrite. It needs to happen at a different time to keep bodyguard interactions.
------------------------------------
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Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 12:34 am
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Yeah I'm not sure that Bodyguard is the right word. Maybe Adv Decoy? It functions like the Decoy SA, but it allows other pieces to be the swap-in piece, rather than the piece with the Decoy SA.

As for timing, can you suggest a wording that would work with the rules?
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thereisnotry Offline
Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 10:17 am
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I'm realizing that it really does make a difference when people say, "Lemme sleep on it." I slept on it, and here is where I stand now:

The more I think about it, there are actually some unintended combos that can come to be via this Adv Decoy/BG SA. It's one thing to swap for a fodder piece, essentially turning your Rodian Brutes into range-6 bodyguards. That's already plenty powerful, and probably more so than we realize right now. But it gets worse:

--You could swap a KelDor BH (or another piece with SD) in there to explode for 40dmg on the attacker, so that the character who wants to attack Boba only ends up damaging himself, while Boba remains to do the same thing all over again the next round.
--It would get worse, moving to nightmare-level in a Poggle squad, where Boba would have 10-15 cheap+ bodyguards with SD.
--Same deal with Nom Bombs. Boba doesn't need stealth, because whenever he's attacked he'll just swap with a bomb to either do dmg to the attacker or be un-targetable. I'm pretty sure he might replace Cad in those builds, since he'd provide a way to automatically set off bombs and--unlike Cad--he'd still have plenty of survivability once you finally got to him.
--He'd be a nightmare with Naboo Deathshots...you think you're attacking Boba, but you instead kill a 5pt Naboo Trooper, who then unloads 70dmg on you.
--Boba could easily end up with 10-15 bodyguards/decoys in any number of squads.

So the idea is super-cool, but it's just broken.


Therefore, I think we might be wisest to keep him as he was (with the move-2-CE). He has lots of "stay-ahead-of-you" elements: Flight, Critical Wound, and Wrist cable. Don't underestimate the value of Wrist Cable vs melee: when he attacks a jedi, he forces the jedi to decide whether to spend the FP on Deflect or to save it for the crucial Wrist Cable save which he knows he'll have to make after Boba is finished attacking. It's great when we can create this kind of scenario in a game, where there are difficult and impactful decisions to be made...it raises the intensity and excitement of the game.

Furthermore, this Boba is probably the best accurate shooter in the game, with GMA-Triple. Boba Merc can do more damage with Whorm (and now Mandos), but he has no survivability so he'll almost always die after doing his 120dmg in one round, whereas this Boba will do 60 per round, every round. On the other hand, the most survivable Boba is Boba BH, but his dmg output maxes out at 40, plus he's got the "shame-element" of the big D to worry about. Additionally, this Boba is not hurt at all by the Czerka Shield Tech, which Cad and a host of other shooters are (Rex, Dash, Mandos, Morrigan, etc). I think he's actually really solid as he is and we should consider him done. Any further improvements would need to drive his cost up quite a bit. Adv Decoy/BH would probably need to put him in the 65-70pt range if we costed him accurately.

And so I'm sorry: Adv Decoy/BG would've been really cool, and I'd really like it to work, but I think it's just far too powerful. If we wanted to create a piece that had Boba's Decoy then we could make this happen...maybe on a new Dengar at some point? (That's the only guy I could imagine risking his life to save Boba's anyway.) And if all we're looking to do is prevent him from getting Twin, then I think we're better to give him a small CE with yet another "stay-ahead-of-you" element, than give him Single Shot Blaster, which really contributes nothing new to the piece.
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Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 1:54 pm
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RICH
Boba with the ADV Decoy/BG swap and take damage save 11
Talon IB
lobot
Rohlan Dyre
Kel Dor BH 4 or 5
Gran

-------
Klat Ass.
R7

Les
OR
Mira
Revanchist
Bastilla
Atton
OR Senetor x2
R7x2
MDx2

Bothan Spy net

R1 Postioning

R2
Bastila ADV BM
Mira>Kel Dor1 h/h
Les Gambit Revacahist

R3
I am "forked" with two open doors
Atton Ambush FP 2 SQ extra >Dyre m/m
Boba>Mira h/h/h GMA
Mira>Dyre m/m Splash made/fail
OR Sen - Mira>Dyre h/h
Kel Dor2 bases Atton
Dyre>R7 h/h
Revanchist Force Push Klat Ass. Dead
Kel Dor3>Atton m
Gambit Les Atton & Revanchist

R4
Dyre>Revachist H - LS Def save made/M
Bastila ADV BM
Atton Moves AOO Kel Dor 2 miss Atton >Kel Dor2 H/H Dead
Kel Dor3>Atton H
OR Sen - Mira>Dyre H Dead
Boba > Atton H Dead
Boba > Revanchist H/H - LS Def Fail
Revachist>Kel Dor H

R5
Mira>Boba H-Evade fail -ADV BG Made Swaps with Kel Dor
Boba>Revanchist H/H/H
Called

Here is what we talked about and played what we did.
Many of the situations mentioned above could be fixed by just adding Fringe only to the ADV BG/Decoy. The swap didn't come into to big of play in this game. He would have beat me with out it. I pushed my play too much.

After this we walked through quick situation where he dropped Dyre and went with 8 Rodian Brutes. We went with where we thougt a game might be at the beging of the 2nd or third round vs Mace/Gowk/JWM/Panaka.

Boba takes out the JWM in one turn. Obi bases Boba and whacks him and boba swap with a brute. Mace then bases boba hits boba swap wth Kel Dor. Mace takes out 2 other brutes. Kel Dors hit mace for about 60 or 80. Mace wins INT and takes AOO from Kel Dors and bases Fet who swaps again with a brute. This is a problem. Just as you invisioned Boba bounce around the board not taking damage.

So we talked about what could be done to make this workable. Making it the swap only Fringe characters limits it alot and avoids the big problems with poggle bombs etc. Limiting it further to once a round might actually make it workable. So this is what we came up with.

Advanced decoy or draw fire or whatever fits (Once per round. When targeted, save 11. If successful, this character may change positions with another Fringe character within 6 squares that has the same base size and that character becomes the target.)

Changed from hit to targeting to reduce the number of rolls needed. This takes away the Evade Save. The limiting it to once a round this also makes you choose when is the best time to use this ability. If you let a shooter tare get you you still have evade to save you, but that is a 50/50 shot.

We talked about saving space on the card and think that quick draw would be better then the critical wound. If you played a 7 round game propably aren't getting this ability off because you are more then likely on shooting 18 time. Round one no shots. Yes, if the dice gods are with you then it is nice. But, if we need to save space Keep Quick draw might be better. Also i am not sure GMA would need to be defined.
----------------------------------------------------
thereisnotry Offline
Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 3:01 pm
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The new version of Adv Decoy seems much more manageable.

As for something to drop: I'm still not sure which one is best. I could go with either, honestly. But if it would save enough space to make the font a good size, then I think it would be worth it to drop both. To me it seems like both of them are non-essential SAs.


I'm willing to PT this new version of Adv Decoy, but I think we should hold the current version (ie, with the CE) in reserve, as the backup if Adv Decoy doesn't work well. And the new version will need several playtests. Whenever we're looking at out-of-turn movement, we need to test carefully and extensively (cf Slaver).

2 questions that immediately come to mind, which will surely come up in PT:
--How does it interact with Stealth? If a shooter without accurate targets Boba in cover from further than 6 away, is the attack cancelled?
--How does it interact with Diplomat? If the attacker can see someone else and a Caamasi Noble takes Boba's place, is the attack cancelled?

I imagine that a Diplomat will probably be the go-to Decoy piece for Boba (it'll rock the house vs melee pieces). We'll need to test both vs melee and vs shooter squads.
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Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 3:15 pm
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I agree don't get me wrong, I like the version with the CE as well. If we can't figure the adv decoy thing out I understand. We had questions about what happens when the swap happens especially with twin.

Wouldn't it work similar to draw fire?
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Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:21 pm
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Okay, what we are talking about is essentially Decoy working in reverse. So pretty much the same precedents apply.
------------------------------
thereisnotry Offline
Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 6:08 pm
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Quote:
Sithborg wrote:
Okay, what we are talking about is essentially Decoy working in reverse. So pretty much the same precedents apply.


I'm not sure what those precedents are, so please clarify.

Is it the case that a Caamasi Noble is an un-damagable decoy (when Diplomat is in effect), or does the timing of the decoy-swap ignore the targeting step? Same thing with Stealth.


As for the Twin question, the Twin attack (ie, the 2nd attack) doesn't target, so you wouldn't be able to choose to roll your Adv Decoy save at that point.
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Sithborg Offline
Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 9:59 pm
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Had to double check. Decoy does allow you to get around normal targeting rules. Granted, Stealth was the only concern, since Decoys have Stealth, at most.
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thereisnotry Offline
Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 11:01 pm
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So if Boba swaps for a Caamasi, the Caamasi is going to bite it? Good to know. And that's probably good too, because it'll prevent some of the abuse that would almost certainly come.
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Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 1:09 pm
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Is this where we are at on this piece then?

Quote:
Quote:
30/45 Boba Fett, Assassin for Hire 50pts
(R) Fringe

HP: 110
Def: 20
Att: +12
Dmg: 20

Special Abilities
Unique

Triple Attack, Greater Mobile Attack, Evade, Flight

Accurate Shot (Can attack an enemy with cover even if it's not the nearest enemy)

Advanced decoy (Once per round. When targeted, save 11. If successful, this character may change positions with another Fringe character within 6 squares that has the same base size and that character becomes the target.)

Bounty Hunter +4 (+4 Attack against Unique enemies)

Critical Wound (An enemy hit by a critical hit from this character is considered activated this round)

Quick Draw (This character can make an attack of opportunity against enemies with special abilities or Force powers that ignore characters while moving)

Single Shot Blaster (This character cannot gain Twin Attack)

Wrist Cable (At the end of this character’s turn, one target enemy within 6 squares cannot move this round, save 11.)

------------------------------------------
LESHIPPY Online
Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 1:17 pm
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Playtest Squad

Boba
Talon IB
New Xixor
New Guri
r7
Rodian brute x3
MD x2

Maybe drop the Brutes and a mouse and add Two klat bs thug.
--------------------------------
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Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 2:06 pm
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Quote:
Sithborg wrote:
Had to double check. Decoy does allow you to get around normal targeting rules. Granted, Stealth was the only concern, since Decoys have Stealth, at most.



Quote:
thereisnotry wrote:
So if Boba swaps for a Caamasi, the Caamasi is going to bite it? Good to know. And that's probably good too, because it'll prevent some of the abuse that would almost certainly come.



I read the glossary for Decoy, and I don't quite see where it covers the attacking restriction of Diplomat (assuming LOS to non-Dip). If it does, then it is sort of a Bombad Gungan type effect.

Either way, this SA should never reappear in a faction with Light/Dark spirits without excluding them somehow.
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Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 3:28 pm
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Switching with a "Fringe character" means it could be an enemy, which sounds a lot like Bombad Gungan.
--------------------------------
thereisnotry Offline
Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 4:17 pm
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Thanks for catching that. It should be "an allied Fringe character."
------------------------------
swinefeld Offline
Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 11:53 pm
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thoughts after reworking the wording...
Quote:
Quote:
Advanced Decoy [Once per round, when this character is targeted, you may attempt a save of 11. On a success, this character may switch positions with a Fringe ally with the same base size within 6 squares. That ally becomes the target instead.]


This really needs a different name. Decoy doesn't requires a save and isn't once per round, so this isn't what I would call an 'advanced' version of it.

Quote:
Quote:
*New Name* [Once per round, when this character is targeted, a Fringe ally with the same base size within 6 squares may switch positions with this character and become the target instead; save 11]


It's a bit shorter that way too. Thoughts?
-------------------------------------------------
thereisnotry Offline
Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 12:39 am
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"One Step Ahead of You"
"One Step Ahead"
"Can't Touch This!"
"I'm Boba Fett!"

Maybe one of those might be an option? Okay, maybe not the last 2. :)
------------------------------------
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Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:20 am
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Bait and Switch?
-----------------------------
swinefeld Offline
Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:54 am
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LESHIPPY wrote:
Bait and Switch?


Oooh, that has a nice ring to it!

I'm not sure I have the wording exactly right yet. I'll review/repost when I get a chance.
-------------------------------------------------
thereisnotry Offline
Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 11:15 am
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swinefeld wrote:
LESHIPPY wrote:
Bait and Switch?


Oooh, that has a nice ring to it!

I'm not sure I have the wording exactly right yet. I'll review/repost when I get a chance.

Yes, Bait and Switch is great. Thanks Les.
-----------------------------------------------------
End of page 4######################

Author:  LESHIPPY [ Fri Aug 14, 2015 12:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Inside the mind of a designer - Boba Assasin for Hire

thereisnotry Offline
Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 5:00 pm
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LESHIPPY wrote:
Playtest Squad

Boba
Talon IB
New Xixor
New Guri
r7
Rodian brute x3
MD x2

Maybe drop the Brutes and a mouse and add Two klat bs thug.

I'll playtest this tonight.

Dropped the Brutes and a Mouse for a Klat BS Thug and also an Abyssan BS Thug (yes, from UH!).

--Boba, BS Thug--
**54 New Xixor
**50 New Boba Fett
**38 New Guri
32 Talon Karrde, Information Broker
8 Abyssin Black Sun Thug (+12 for 30, double att w Cunning, Stealth)
8 R7 Astromech Droid
**6 Klatoonian Black Sun Thug
3 Mouse Droid

(200pts. 8 activations)
---------------------------------------------------
swinefeld Offline
Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 9:40 pm
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After some fiddling and fighting for space, another rendering:

Quote:
Quote:
Bait and Switch [Once per round when this character is targeted, on a successful save of 11 he may switch positions with a Medium Fringe ally within 6 squares; that character becomes the target instead]



The previous version, tweaked a bit:

Quote:
Quote:
Bait and Switch [Once per round, when this character is targeted, a Medium Fringe ally within 6 squares may switch positions with this character and become the target instead with a save of 11]


Very little room to work with if either has to be expanded.
---------------------
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Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 9:21 am
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I think the last one sounds more like other abilities
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hereisnotry Offline
Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 9:28 am
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For the second one, it looks like the Fringe character is the one who makes the save, rather than Boba. For that reason I think I prefer the wording of the first version, because it makes it clear that Boba makes the save.
--------------------------------------------
swinefeld Offline
Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 11:28 am
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Quote:
thereisnotry wrote:
For the second one, it looks like the Fringe character is the one who makes the save, rather than Boba. For that reason I think I prefer the wording of the first version, because it makes it clear that Boba makes the save.



Yes, the first one has Boba making the save, the 2nd one is the other character. I also thought about having the other character save to resist the effect (just 'save 11' rather than 'with a save of 11') similar to Dominate.

I was just trying to condense the wording, but it didn't seem to work out very well. Here is a more typical phrasing for the 1st version, but the text will probably have to be squeezed about 5% to keep it to 5 lines:

Quote:
Quote:
Bait and Switch [Once per round, when this character is targeted, he can attempt a save of 11. On a success, he may switch positions with a Medium Fringe ally within 6 squares. That character becomes the target instead.]



The card is full at 6pt font, with multiple undefined abilities, including Evade which I'm not sure has been done before. Definitely can't add anything else, lol.
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thereisnotry Offline
Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 12:49 pm
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We can drop Quick Draw. Critical Wound isn't essential either (though it is cool).
-------------------------------------------
Sithborg Offline
Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 3:59 pm
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I think I would prefer dropping Critical Wound over Quick Draw.
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thereisnotry Offline
Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 8:21 pm
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I do think something needs to come off of the card for space reasons, so Critical Wound is a good choice to remove. I think that Quick Draw will have more gameplay implications anyway.
---------------------------------------
swinefeld Offline
Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 11:42 am
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this should work at 6pt font

side note: Bait & Switch, for space reasons I made base size medium because Boba's are medium. I would consider base size part of the variable portion (if need be) if it gets reused.

Quote:
Quote:
30/45 Boba Fett, Assassin for Hire 50pts
(R) Fringe

HP: 110
Def: 20
Att: +12
Dmg: 20

Special Abilities
Unique. Triple Attack; Flight
Greater Mobile Attack

Accurate Shot [Can attack an enemy with cover even if it's not the nearest enemy]

Bait and Switch [Once per round, when this character is targeted, he can attempt a save of 11. On a success, he may switch positions with a Medium Fringe ally within 6 squares. That character becomes the target instead.]

Bounty Hunter +4 [+4 Attack against Unique enemies]

Evade [When hit by an attack from a nonadjacent enemy, this character takes no damage with a save of 11]

Quick Draw [This character can make an attack of opportunity against enemies with special abilities or Force powers that ignore characters while moving]

Single-Shot Blaster [This character cannot gain Twin Attack]

Wrist Cable [At the end of this character’s turn, one target enemy within 6 squares cannot move this round, save 11]

---------------------------------------
LESHIPPY Online
Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 11:03 pm
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Play tested this

New Fett
New Guri
New Xizor
Talon IB
R7
Brutex3
MDx2

vs
Sideous, Supreme Chanc.
New Vos
New Asajj
Poggle
Drone x10
Lobot
----
Moramaw or what ever the war throat guy is
Crumb

Fett's crew had a hard time getting targets in teh beginning with cloaked and Phantom Meanace so that limited them. Plus they are expensive to run.
55
50
38
32
175 in 4 figs
Granted they can dish out the damage and probably would have won if not for the dice smiling on the seps.
Vos uses Talon CE
R1 Boba Gambit
----------------
R2
Guri > Lobot (becasue of bad placement) dead
Xizor>Drone H/S comes back
Fett> Drone H Dead
Talon> Drone H dead
Sid Lighting Guri 50 Dam
Gambit Boba
--------------
R3
Xizor>Drone Dead
Talon>Drone Dead - Disrubt
Vos FP2 extra sq >Fett Crit 60 Dam
Fett>Vos M/h/h/h
War Throat > Drone S comes back > Vos 10 > Drone S comes back > Drone Dead 20 Dam Fett > Brute > Brute > MD
Gambit Both
------------------
R4
INT Fett Move
Asajj>Fett Dead
Guri>Sid M/h/h/h/ 60
Talon> Sid Miss
Sid Leap Assault Talon h/h/h/h Dead
Vos Lighting r7
-------------
R5
Guri> Sid M/H
Asajj speed >guri h/m
Xizor> Asajj h/m
War throat moves to postion again with drone near xizor

r6
Assaj>Guri H Dead
this leaves Xizor with two adjacent drones and war throat on the way. Vos cahrging for ligting plus asajj with min dam game called.

Boba sort of got pinned between vos and sid. War throat killed every one that was holding doors for him to get out so he was stuck. How ever no crit by vos and no miss by fett all of a sudden it is a different game.

I think fett is fine where he is at. This squad while it can deal some massive damage has few activations. It might be better to drop Guri for TBSV and maybe bring in dug BSV so you have cunning and opportunist. I don't know. Maybe losing Xizor al together and run Talon and fett guri, new mira...
------------------------------------
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Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 12:06 pm
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Quote:
LESHIPPY wrote:
I think fett is fine where he is at. This squad while it can deal some massive damage has few activations. It might be better to drop Guri for TBSV and maybe bring in dug BSV so you have cunning and opportunist. I don't know. Maybe losing Xizor al together and run Talon and fett guri, new mira...

Good PT report, and I agree with your conclusions. One Step Ahead is good as is (because it's only 1/round), and I'm confident in moving forward with Boba as he current stands.

I personally think that Talon/Boba (with Dash and Klat Assassins) is the way to go, and that Xizor/Guri are a different squad type, since Xizor doesn't give anything to Boba. Talon/Xizor/Guri/Cad/NBSV is a potentially solid combo though (since Cad will be BS and will gain the extra Att and Talon's dmg boost, for 180dmg).
---------------------------------
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Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 12:11 pm
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I've been thinking about a few scenarios with Bait and Switch. Don't have time to write them out at the moment, but will post later when I get time.
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Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 9:32 pm
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OK, so I just wanted to bring up a few things and make sure there aren't any unintended interactions. NR Leia, Sith Pawns, Holosid and Nadd Spirit all give easy access to rerolls (free or FPs). This stuff all pertains to when he is based.

Self-Destruct - if Boba is attacked and swaps in a SD piece, it's really nasty against big hits and twin because you can't stop the attack. It seems like you guys are fine with that.

Camasi - completely shuts down the attacker if Diplomat is effect, unless it has Indiscriminate, OF or similar. Screw you, Mara Jedi et al!

Buzz Droid - Against applicable attacks the enemy would "become adjacent" to the Buzz and blow up for 20, stop any further attacks, and maybe trigger malfunctioning. This brings up other questions about Magnetic Sabotage, need to revisit that thread to make sure the intent and rules are squared away on that SA, and if it would actually apply here. I think it would, not sure.

The main point is, we should probably spend a little time looking for weird stuff that could cause headaches now rather than later. I agree he seems pretty much done otherwise.

On the flavor side, if the Sarlacc attacks him, he has a way to escape, so there's that. :P
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Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 11:00 am
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Thanks for bringing this up, Dave.

Self-Destruct: Klat Assassins or KelDor BHs are probably the biggest problems here. Someone showed me this Deathshot squad as an example of what could happen:

--Fringe Deathshots--
50 New Boba
23 Mon Mothma
21 Admiral Yularen
21 The Dark Woman
16 Qui-Gon Jinn, Force Spirit
13 Kel Dor Bounty Hunter
36 Klatooinian Assassin x3
9 R2-D2, Astromech Droid
8 Mas Amedda
3 Ugnaught Demolitionist

(100pts. 12 activations)

A Force user trying to kill Boba could wind up having to instead kill a Kel Dor who then gets a Death Shot (+20atk/30dmg) and Self-Destruct 40. Or kill a Klat: +16/50dmg Death shot plus Self-Destruct 20. With Dark Woman/Qui-Gon, there's a 75% chance of pulling it off each round. However, it's a rather one-dimensional squad, with very few deathshots happening, compared, for example, to the more effective Naboo Deathshot squad. Furthermore, a 12 activation squad with no Tempo Control won't get to use Opportunist very often (likely only on the deathshots). You could save 37pts by dropping DW and Quigon Ghost for 2 more Klats and 1 more KelDor, which would make 13 activations and more damage output. It would be a problem for jedi squads, for sure, with 7 potential DS-SD targets. However, a cloaked/stealthed DS-SD squad would be a serious problem for jedi anyway, even without Boba. [Seriously, I think the Klat Assassin should've been 15+pts, but that's another discussion.]

I do think this needs to be tested...both vs a melee squad and a shooter squad.



Caamasi: I thought we had already established that the Noble could be killed, since the targetting step was already resolved. If not, I think it should be. It's just not cool if Boba can live forever if he has lucky saves and a 5pt reinforcement piece. If the Caamasi is swapped for Boba, it should be killable. It's a similar thing with swapping for a fig with Cloaked (ie, Klat Assassin)...I think the new piece should be shoot-able, rather than cancelling the attack entirely. I'd really like to hear a definitive and clear answer/ruling from Scott on this issue before we proceed any further.



Buzz Droid: I'm not sure that this will be a huge problem (and hey, more Lancer-hate isn't necessarily bad). But if it is a problem then we could simply change it to "living" Fringe allies. To me that would solve the problem. Buzz Droids are cheap enough that it might actually end up getting used, so maybe it's better to be safe than sorry.
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Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 11:51 am
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Quote:
thereisnotry wrote:
Caamasi: I thought we had already established that the Noble could be killed, since the targetting step was already resolved. If not, I think it should be. It's just not cool if Boba can live forever if he has lucky saves and a 5pt reinforcement piece. If the Caamasi is swapped for Boba, it should be killable. It's a similar thing with swapping for a fig with Cloaked (ie, Klat Assassin)...I think the new piece should be shoot-able, rather than cancelling the attack entirely. I'd really like to hear a definitive and clear answer/ruling from Scott on this issue before we proceed any further.



Steps in an attack: http://www.bloomilk.com/Forums/default. ... ts&t=10805

The targeting has already taken place (step 2). In step 3, the new target replaces the old target, and the new target is targeted even if the new character couldn't normally be targeted. This is where Decoy gets around Stealth/Cloaked.

But the attack is declared in step 5. Diplomats cannot be targeted or attacked. Decoy (and by extension Bait and Switch) gets around the targeting restriction, but I don't think it gets around the attack restriction. I'd wait for Scott to verify that, though. Indiscriminate, Overwhelming Power, or Overwhelming Force should all work to get around the attack restriction.
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Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:23 pm
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Quote:
hereisnotry wrote:
Thanks for bringing this up, Dave.

Self-Destruct: Klat Assassins or KelDor BHs are probably the biggest problems here. Someone showed me this Deathshot squad as an example of what could happen:

I do think this needs to be tested...both vs a melee squad and a shooter squad.



Yeah, I hadn't even considered death shots on top of that.

Quote:
Quote:
Caamasi: I thought we had already established that the Noble could be killed, since the targetting step was already resolved. If not, I think it should be. It's just not cool if Boba can live forever if he has lucky saves and a 5pt reinforcement piece. If the Caamasi is swapped for Boba, it should be killable. It's a similar thing with swapping for a fig with Cloaked (ie, Klat Assassin)...I think the new piece should be shoot-able, rather than cancelling the attack entirely. I'd really like to hear a definitive and clear answer/ruling from Scott on this issue before we proceed any further.



I don't think that has been established. Decoy may force the Camasi to be the target regardless of other restrictions (ie Stealth), but I'd like to see some clear precedent for how it circumvents the restriction against attacking it if Diplomat is in effect.

Quote:
Quote:
Buzz Droid: I'm not sure that this will be a huge problem (and hey, more Lancer-hate isn't necessarily bad). But if it is a problem then we could simply change it to "living" Fringe allies. To me that would solve the problem. Buzz Droids are cheap enough that it might actually end up getting used, so maybe it's better to be safe than sorry.



A strafer isn't affected unless it is making its normal attack (strafe doesn't target) so the situation is narrower in scope, but it would still penalize a class of pieces that don't deserve the hate (Grie-vehicular Manslaughter being a possible exception :P ) So I agree with playing it safe and making it living.

A bigger fix (for SD/Camasi if needed) could be to make it only when nonadjacent enemies target him. I kinda see the adjacent aspect as him firing his jet packs to escape, but if its abusive...

Quote:
flyingarrow wrote:
But the attack is declared in step 5. Diplomats cannot be targeted or attacked. Decoy (and by extension One Step Ahead) gets around the targeting restriction, but I don't think it gets around the attack restriction. I'd wait for Scott to verify that, though. Indiscriminate, Overwhelming Power, or Overwhelming Force should all work to get around the attack restriction.


Overwhelming Power only makes damage from attacks unpreventable, but otherwise I concur.
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Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 11:35 am
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Bait and Switch [Once per round, when this character is targeted, he can attempt a save of 11. On a success, he may switch positions with a Medium Unique Fringe ally within 6 squares. That character becomes the target instead and can be attack regardless of Special Abilities]

I think this actually follows the Zan book better then the original intent and it fixes problems.
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Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:33 pm
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LESHIPPY wrote:
Bait and Switch [Once per round, when this character is targeted, he can attempt a save of 11. On a success, he may switch positions with a Medium Unique Fringe ally within 6 squares. That character becomes the target instead and can be attack regardless of Special Abilities]


I think this actually follows the Zan book better then the original intent and it fixes problems.


What is the 'attacked regardless of special abilities' wording supposed to do exactly?
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Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 6:11 pm
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There are very few low-cost unique Fringe allies, so I don't think this is the way to go. Medium Fringe ally is fine.

We do need to have a way of keeping a Caamasi Noble from being a never-ending-swap-fodder piece for Boba, though.
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Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 7:50 pm
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thereisnotry wrote:
There are very few low-cost unique Fringe allies, so I don't think this is the way to go. Medium Fringe ally is fine.


We do need to have a way of keeping a Caamasi Noble from being a never-ending-swap-fodder piece for Boba, though.

One way to handle the Camasi is to make the attack against the decoyed piece unpreventable. That still leaves Self-Destruct abuse on the table if Boba was based, which concerns me.

It's just messy. I think the mechanic needs to be reworked. Maybe he stays put but pulls the ally to an adjacent square and it eats the damage, which would balance the Camasi and Self-Destruct issues. That's a very rough idea so I'm not sure what other issues might come up, but I see some potential benefits on subsequent attacks from the enemy if the ally is the new legal target or a BG.

shrug
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Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 10:17 pm
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Boba is already hard on melee characters (flight, wrist cable), so I'm quite concerned about the abuse of swapping for a Klat Assassin when he's attacked by a melee character. The Klat Assassin is already a very powerful piece, even before it is turned into a swapping bodyguard that punishes people who attack it.


There are currently a number of problematic interactions with Bait and Switch:
--Boba is standing in cover and is targeted by an enemy shooter. Boba swaps for a Cloaked ally. The new piece would be un-target-able, correct? It should be target-able, or else this is a bad idea.
--Same deal as above, but with a Diplomat. Never-ending Diplo-BG is a bad idea.
--Swapping for a Self-Destruct or Death-Shot piece, especially vs melee.

Basically, I think it needs to be able to happen that:
--the new piece becomes the target, regardless of any special abilities which would otherwise prevent it
--the new piece can give out no damage until its next activation

If this is not possible from a rules perspective, then I think we do need to scrap the concept. There's just too much that can be abused, to the point of a NPE.
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Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 10:41 pm
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Quote:
thereisnotry wrote:
There are currently a number of problematic interactions with Bait and Switch:
--Boba is standing in cover and is targeted by an enemy shooter. Boba swaps for a Cloaked ally. The new piece would be un-target-able, correct? It should be target-able, or else this is a bad idea.

It is targetable, based on the Decoy precedent. Decoy (and by extension Bait & Switch) happen after targeting, and the swapped-in character becomes the new target. Precedent is for Stealth (specifically Winter swapping in for Leia), but it would work the same way for Cloaked. (It's spelled out in the glossary entry for Decoy.)

Quote:
Quote:
--Same deal as above, but with a Diplomat. Never-ending Diplo-BG is a bad idea.

The Diplomat could not be attacked because the swap happens before the attack is declared, and the Diplomat cannot be attacked. (90% sure on this and swinefeld agrees - but pending Sithborg's confirmation.)

Quote:
Quote:
If this is not possible from a rules perspective, then I think we do need to scrap the concept. There's just too much that can be abused, to the point of a NPE.

Just throwing this out there - what if it were once per skirmish instead of once per round? Possibly also remove the save so that Boba could pick his moment. The same issues would still be there but if he could only do it once it probably buys him another round of life but not semi-eternal NPE life.
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Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 12:22 am
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FlyingArrow wrote:
Just throwing this out there - what if it were once per skirmish instead of once per round? Possibly also remove the save so that Boba could pick his moment. The same issues would still be there but if he could only do it once it probably buys him another round of life but not semi-eternal NPE life.



Once per skirmish would make a big difference, that's a good suggestion.

I still don't like the self-destruct vs melee aspect, which I why I suggested that he pull the ally adjacent - so he would be affected as well. Big negative incentive there. A Camasi would soak 1 attack, but if the enemy had Double+, Boba wouldn't be protected after the 1st attack. A death shot is another matter, but if we have to put a bunch of caveats into the wording, it really isn't worth it, IMO.

This is pretty much what I was thinking:
Usable once per skirmish: When an enemy targets this character, he can (make a save of 11. On a success,) place a Medium (living) Fringe ally within 6 squares adjacent to him. That ally becomes the target instead (and the attack cannot be prevented).
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Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 12:33 am
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I spoke with Les a bit about this in Kokomo, which is why I'm posting here.

I suggested that if you do continue on this route, that the ability should only work if a non-adjacent enemy targets him. That way it's not Melee hate, and even guns can "turn it off" by basing him. This encourages aggressive action in games. It doesn't solve all of the above quandaries, but it does help some. Les seemed to agree that something that encourages opponents to go after each other is usually a good thing.
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Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 12:50 am
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^ I would support that option as well :)

Quote:
swinefeld wrote:
A bigger fix (for SD/Camasi if needed) could be to make it only when nonadjacent enemies target him. I kinda see the adjacent aspect as him firing his jet packs to escape, but if its abusive...

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Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 7:11 am
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Combine the two? It would cancel out all of the NPEs that have been mentioned except Fringe death shots. But they aren't currently competitive, and if it's only once per skirmish it wouldn't matter all that much.

Bait and Switch Usable once per skirmish: When a non-adjacent enemy targets this character, he may switch positions with a Medium Fringe ally within 6 squares. That character becomes the target instead and the attack cannot be prevented.

Not as awe-inspiring as the original version, but could still utterly change a game when used at the right moment, especially with no save attached.
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Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 10:48 am
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Thanks for that non-adj suggestion, Tim; I think it's genius. Vs shooters he has defense via Evade or Bait-and-Switch...vs melee he has Flight and Wrist Cable.

Quote:
FlyingArrow wrote:
Bait and Switch: Usable once per skirmish: When a non-adjacent enemy targets this character, he may switch positions with a Medium Fringe ally within 6 squares. That character becomes the target instead and the attack cannot be prevented.



I just want to be sure: with the above wording, Diplomat and Cloaked (and whatever else, like SS CEs, etc) would be completely ignored for the attack in question, correct? (Although the piece could still use Evade/Soresu/Deflect if desired.)

I'm not sure it needs to be once per skirmish, though (obviously if it were once per round then it would still need a save). This version is already miles better than the NPE that we had before, so if you guys are really big on it being once per skirmish then I'm willing to go with that. I just think that since we've dramatically lessened its power, it can stay at once-per-round.
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Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 11:41 am
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Quote:
thereisnotry wrote:
There are very few low-cost unique Fringe allies, so I don't think this is the way to go. Medium Fringe ally is fine.




I disagree I think if it is a Unique Fringe ally fixes almost all the problems.
At the moment no one has any of the abilities that are causing problems.
No diplomat
No self destruct
no Djem So

Plus it adds in complexity to your squad building.

This would allow it to be once per round. While not allowing much Lobot abuse. At the moment you would only be able to get two free characters to pull this off with. To get a third piece there would have to be a Unique piece designed at 7 or below
It might force playing pieces otherwise not played.
It is way more flavorful.

I think this is the simplest way to solve the problem.

Quote:
Quote:
Bait and Switch Usable once per round: When a non-adjacent enemy targets this character, he may switch positions with a Unique Fringe ally within 6 squares. That character becomes the target instead and the attack cannot be prevented.

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Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 12:03 pm
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Les's version: Unique Small or Medium Fringe ally.

Either case:
An unpreventable attack goes through everything, but I believe can still be redirected. Without the Camasi in the picture, it doesn't have to be unpreventable, because it gets around targeting rules for stealth/cloaked etc.
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Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 1:36 pm
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Quote:
LESHIPPY wrote:
Quote:
thereisnotry wrote:
There are very few low-cost unique Fringe allies, so I don't think this is the way to go. Medium Fringe ally is fine.




I disagree I think if it is a Unique Fringe ally fixes almost all the problems.
At the moment no one has any of the abilities that are causing problems.
No diplomat
No self destruct
no Djem So

Plus it adds in complexity to your squad building.

This would allow it to be once per round. While not allowing much Lobot abuse. At the moment you would only be able to get two free characters to pull this off with. To get a third piece there would have to be a Unique piece designed at 7 or below
It might force playing pieces otherwise not played.
It is way more flavorful.

I think this is the simplest way to solve the problem.

Quote:
Quote:
Bait and Switch Usable once per round: When a non-adjacent enemy targets this character, he may switch positions with a Unique Fringe ally within 6 squares. That character becomes the target instead and the attack cannot be prevented.


Here is a list of all the unique Fringe characters costing 12pts or less [more expensive pieces tend to not be worth it]:
-5 Salacious Crumb (small)
-8 Wicket (small)
-8 Bib Fortuna
-9 Wuher (has No Blasters, so we'd definitely need the "can't be prevented" clause)
-9 Ponda Baba
-10 Owen & Beru Lars
-10 Figrin D'an
-10 Dr. Evazan
-11 Watto
-11 Boshek
-12 Shmi Skywalker
-12 Logray, Ewok Shaman
-12 Greedo
-12 Gha Nachkt
-12 Garindan

I've placed in bold the minis that tend to get used with any kind of frequency. Salacious and Figrin are clearly the best options, but how many squads mainline them? I'm not sure I'd want to sack Wicket if I was in a matchup where I needed him (ie, vs high-def pieces), and I wouldn't bring him into my squad except via Reinforcements, and only then if I needed the extra help hitting the big targets. Gha Nachkt is the only other piece worth sacking, since his role is already finished once the squad is built...and people would be happily using him for this role anyway, even if they had other pieces to choose from too.

I don't think that restricting this SA to Uniques would help these unplayed Uniques to see more table time...it would only reduce the usefulness of the SA. If we're looking at doing this, then I would honestly rather see him keep the CE that we had on him before (allied BH moves 2 squares).

I think Bait-And-Switch is far too cool of an ability to allow it to be mostly crippled by the Unique restriction.
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Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 2:33 pm
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I don't know, 13 to 17 points for essentially 30 to 50 extra hp is not bad.

Really it is more then that if you are able to pull the unique from around the corner now Boba is safe from all the damage. The unique takes up to 80 from Cad or who ever so they die, but boba is still alive having taken no damage and that is huge. so getting two chances to save 120 damage is pretty big and it is 13 to 17 points that you brought in with Lobot

This is still a good ability but it takes some skill to pull it off effectively. It isn't just simple as swap. I really don't want this to be an offensive tool because that is really meant to be a defensive ability. It is a different way to protect Fett then we have used before.
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Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 3:01 pm
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You know, the easy fix is to make it a reverse Draw Their Fire (ie, only to another legal target) rather than a reverse Decoy.

It solves all the issues that are seeming to come up. The movement of Fett. The anti-meleeness of pulling in a character with Self Destruct. The issues with Diplomat et al. And really, requires much less wording.
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Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 3:18 pm
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Sithborg wrote:
You know, the easy fix is to make it a reverse Draw Their Fire (ie, only to another legal target) rather than a reverse Decoy.

It solves all the issues that are seeming to come up. The movement of Fett. The anti-meleeness of pulling in a character with Self Destruct. The issues with Diplomat et al. And really, requires much less wording.



That might be the easiest way to deal with it. I like moving Fett but I am willing to work with this.
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Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 10:17 pm
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Why won't this work?

Quote:
Quote:
Bait and Switch: Usable once per round: When a non-adjacent enemy targets this character, he may switch positions with a Fringe ally within 6 squares. That character becomes the target instead and the attack cannot be prevented.



This isn't a problem with self-destruct, nor is it a problem with Diplomat or Cloak/SS. I think it's a really cool SA written this way. Am I missing something here?
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Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 10:13 am
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Quote:
thereisnotry wrote:

Quote:
Bait and Switch: Usable once per round: When a non-adjacent enemy targets this character, he may switch positions with a Fringe ally within 6 squares. That character becomes the target instead and the attack cannot be prevented.



I would prefer to use this version as long as you can still shoot whoever it switches with.
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Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 10:25 am
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That's fine for me. But I do think it should still require a Save 11.

As long as it gets around Diplomat/Cloaked shenanigans, then I think it's good to go.
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Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 12:38 pm
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Quote:
thereisnotry wrote:
That's fine for me. But I do think it should still require a Save 11.

As long as it gets around Diplomat/Cloaked shenanigans, then I think it's good to go
.


Yes, the save needs to go back in.

As I understand it, Decoy forces it to be a legal target regardless of other abilities.
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Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 2:45 pm
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That sounds good to me. But the new target can still prevent (Deflect/Evade) or reduce (armor) the damage if it normally could, correct?



'cannot be prevented' is straight from Overwhelming Force, which gets the Diplomat.

If we make it 'cannot be prevented or redirected' then it should stick in all cases, which may be best so as to avoid any other weird interactions (now or future). The decoy eats the attack (if it hits) 100% of the time.

Sound appropriate?
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Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 2:45 pm
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That sounds good to me. But the new target can still prevent (Deflect/Evade) or reduce (armor) the damage if it normally could, correct?
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Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 3:05 pm
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Quote:
thereisnotry wrote:
That sounds good to me. But the new target can still prevent (Deflect/Evade) or reduce (armor) the damage if it normally could, correct?



Aw crap, I just realized this doesn't even cover abilities that aren't attacks.

Time to rethink it yet again.
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Post subject:  Re: Inside the mind of a designer - Boba Assasin for Hire

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Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 3:16 pm
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How is that a problem? So the swapped-in Rodian or Caamasi needs to roll a Missiles save rather than getting shot at. Is there a difference? He's still the legal target.
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Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 3:42 pm
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Quote:
thereisnotry wrote:
How is that a problem? So the swapped-in Rodian or Caamasi needs to roll a Missiles save rather than getting shot at. Is there a difference? He's still the legal target.



Yeah as long as you can target, could you push, lightning, or whatever?
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swinefeld Offline
Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 4:52 pm
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As currently worded, attacks go through everything.

If you don't want that, it will need to be reworded to deal with the Camasi, but still allow the new target's abilities (Evade or whatever) to function.

I have a pretty good idea how to write it up, so please confirm that is how it should be.
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thereisnotry Offline
Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 7:22 pm
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I think that the swapped-in piece should be targetable, no matter what (Diplomat, cloaked, etc) but should still be able to use whatever damage-negation or damage-reduction abilities it would normally have.
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Lou Offline
Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 8:52 pm
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We could make it that the piece that's switches is a legal target no matter what

But if we get this straight I am good with it
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swinefeld Offline
Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Thu May 01, 2014 12:00 am
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Let's try this on for size:

Quote:
Quote:
Bait and Switch [Once per round, when this character is targeted by a nonadjacent enemy, he can attempt a save of 11. On a success, he may switch positions with a Medium or smaller Fringe ally within 6 squares; That ally becomes the target instead and the enemy cannot be prevented from attacking it this turn.]



Scott, please sanity-check for rules issues.

edit: drop 'this turn' to limit it to this specific instance of targeting, but it will need to be spelled out in detail in the glossary. (I expect that will be the case no matter what)
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TimmerB123 Offline
Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Thu May 01, 2014 8:33 am
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Quote:
swinefeld wrote:
Let's try this on for size:

Quote:
Quote:
Bait and Switch [Once per round, when this character is targeted by a nonadjacent enemy, he can attempt a save of 11. On a success, he may switch positions with a Medium or smaller Fringe ally within 6 squares; That ally becomes the target instead and the enemy cannot be prevented from attacking it this turn.]


Scott, please sanity-check for rules issues.

edit: drop 'this turn' to limit it to this specific instance of targeting, but it will need to be spelled out in detail in the glossary. (I expect that will be the case no matter what)



Do you still want medium or smaller? I think that was added in when it might have been uniques. Keep in mind small includes mouse droids and ugnaughts. I suggest medium only, and/or living.
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LESHIPPY Online
Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Thu May 01, 2014 9:06 am
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Removed smaller. That was only when we were talking uniques. Other then that it looks good.

Quote:
Quote:
Bait and Switch [Once per round, when this character is targeted by a nonadjacent enemy, he can attempt a save of 11. On a success, he may switch positions with a Medium Fringe ally within 6 squares; That ally becomes the target instead and the enemy cannot be prevented from attacking it this turn.]

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swinefeld Offline
Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Thu May 01, 2014 9:19 am
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Anyone concerned with swapping in a good shooter and unloading on the attacker, or is that all part of the plan?
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Lou Offline
Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Thu May 01, 2014 10:50 am
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Can we make it so it does not work against melee?
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Sithborg Offline
Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Thu May 01, 2014 11:18 am
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Lou wrote:
Can we make it so it does not work against melee?


It works against non-adjacent.
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Lou Offline
Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Thu May 01, 2014 12:29 pm
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Sorry I was talking about bait and switch

or make it so it does not work against adjacent
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Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Thu May 01, 2014 12:35 pm
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Quote:
swinefeld wrote:
Anyone concerned with swapping in a good shooter and unloading on the attacker, or is that all part of the plan?


I think that's part of the plan. Remember that the swapped-in piece will be the target of an attack first (just like Decoy), and often also receive some follow-up damage from another piece in the same phase. I know that if I'm attacking Boba and he has a good shooter within 6 of him, I'll use my first activation to target Boba so that, whether Boba makes the save or not, I can focus all of my firepower on the piece that's standing in that spot (whether Boba or the other shooter), and hopefully bring it down that round. I expect that in everything except an end-game situation with just a few pieces on the board, the swap-piece will die very soon after being swapped.
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Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Thu May 01, 2014 12:45 pm
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thereisnotry wrote:
Quote:
swinefeld wrote:
Anyone concerned with swapping in a good shooter and unloading on the attacker, or is that all part of the plan?

I think that's part of the plan. Remember that the swapped-in piece will be the target of an attack first (just like Decoy), and often also receive some follow-up damage from another piece in the same phase. I know that if I'm attacking Boba and he has a good shooter within 6 of him, I'll use my first activation to target Boba so that, whether Boba makes the save or not, I can focus all of my firepower on the piece that's standing in that spot (whether Boba or the other shooter), and hopefully bring it down that round. I expect that in everything except an end-game situation with just a few pieces on the board, the swap-piece will die very soon after being swapped
.


Just wanted to be sure. Lots of possibilities.
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LESHIPPY Online
Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Thu May 01, 2014 4:22 pm
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Quote:
Lou wrote:
Sorry I was talking about bait and switch

or make it so it does not work against adjacent



It doesn't work on against melee
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LESHIPPY Online
Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Thu May 15, 2014 10:42 am
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Are we ready to call Boba done?
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Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Thu May 15, 2014 11:04 am
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This is the latest stat block (copied from page 5 but with the most recent version Bait & Switch):

Quote:
Quote:
30/45 Boba Fett, Assassin for Hire 50pts
(R) Fringe

HP: 110
Def: 20
Att: +12
Dmg: 20

Special Abilities
Unique. Triple Attack; Flight
Greater Mobile Attack

Accurate Shot [Can attack an enemy with cover even if it's not the nearest enemy]

Bait and Switch [Once per round, when this character is targeted by a nonadjacent enemy, he can attempt a save of 11. On a success, he may switch positions with a Medium Fringe ally within 6 squares; That ally becomes the target instead and the enemy cannot be prevented from attacking it this turn.]

Bounty Hunter +4 [+4 Attack against Unique enemies]

Evade [When hit by an attack from a nonadjacent enemy, this character takes no damage with a save of 11]

Quick Draw [This character can make an attack of opportunity against enemies with special abilities or Force powers that ignore characters while moving]

Single-Shot Blaster [This character cannot gain Twin Attack]

Wrist Cable [At the end of this character’s turn, one target enemy within 6 squares cannot move this round, save 11]

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LESHIPPY Online
Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Thu May 15, 2014 2:39 pm
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thanks
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thereisnotry Offline
Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Thu May 15, 2014 2:59 pm
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Done. My favorite piece in the game so far. Bait and Switch is cool, and very Boba-esque. He has lots of cool uses and synergies, and will hopefully fit into a number of different squad types.
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LESHIPPY Online
Post subject: Re: 31. I'm Boba the FettPostPosted: Thu May 15, 2014 3:51 pm
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I will call it done as well
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