TimmerB123 Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 12:15 pm
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The CE is very powerful. I'm not against disciplined leader but that could be significant.
We are still waiting on word from QC on exactly how his CE would interact with disruptive
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 12:49 pm
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TimmerB123 wrote:
We are still waiting on word from QC on exactly how his CE would interact with disruptive
I'll come back to this asap.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 12:52 pm
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swinefeld wrote:
TimmerB123 wrote:
We are still waiting on word from QC on exactly how his CE would interact with disruptive
I'll come back to this asap.
Regardless of the ruling here, there will be confusion on the matter.
Should we just put discipline leader on him to both strengthen the character and not have to worry about confusion?
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 1:01 pm
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swinefeld wrote:
The glossary treats it as [X] Reserves #. # is the variable amount of points you can add, but the number you need to roll stays the same. It has been that way forever, with numerous examples, and I really don't think we should break that pattern this far into the life of the game.
However, if [X] changes to something (like a more specific group of pieces) that hasn't been made yet, you can make the number whatever you want.
Does that help?
Yep explains it exactly as I needed to see it. Thanks. That explanation make sense.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 1:02 pm
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Quote:
Regardless of the ruling here, there will be confusion on the matter.
Should we just put discipline leader on him to both strengthen the character and not have to worry about confusion?
If it makes it easier rules wise then yes.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 1:03 pm
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TimmerB123 wrote:
I'm sorry Les, I guess I misunderstood your post about reserves
Sorry i always get them confused.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 1:06 pm
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So if we add disciplined leader, add stealth, lose reserves and cost 33 how does that sound?
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 1:38 pm
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I think he could be around 45 points with the reinforcements.
I guess I don't see him with out reinforcements being as strong as Grand Admiral Thrawn
Master is better that tact 8 - 2 points maybe more
Yslamri is better then traps and fire at will combined - 2 points maybe more
Swap cancels the current Garm CE but that still leaves you the +3+3. 5 points
so with out reinforcements he is worth 29 points maybe less. IMO. So adding 20 points of reinforcements i don't think should bump it up the full 20 points. If so why have it at all? That is why i think 45 is a good spot.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 1:42 pm
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What power level are we shooting for? Thrawn is a faction defining power 11 piece.
Not saying 45 cost with reinforcements is out of the question. It does however make him look quite a bit like his other version.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 7:28 am
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I was thinking power level 8 or there abouts.
In my earlier post I forgot to figure in Independent and Rival as pretty big negatives I would say combined they are at least a -5 to 8 points. You are losing access to many of the NR bag of tricks.
If we do Reinforcements 20 you only get two characters. However that would allow you to bring in both Ghost Luke and the new R2. I am not sure that is a huge problem.
With all that being said i could see him costing 37-40 points
I didn't realize his original piece cost 45. However, this piece seems quite different to me even if they cost close to the same. The reinforcements and the stats are the only part similar. All the cool stuff sets it apart.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 2:32 pm
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Oh poo! I had a whole long page writing out my thought process here.
Here it goes again.
Just talking it through. If we do Rienforcements 20
You're right this guy is very different from the WotC version.
His CE is the main reason to use him. Very powerful.
(Disciplined leader is an even stronger upgrade to this, but I think he should have it for multiple reasons)
Tact +8 is also quite strong.
Fire at will is interesting and could be useful, but not gamebreaking.
Traps is pure flavor and will rarely come into play.
You are right that independant and rival are significant minuses.
This guy with his prior stats seemed just slighty overcosted.
So what are rienforcements worth? By pure math, if we costed him at 40, his net cost would be 20.
Many would say that Rienforcements are worth more than their cost, because you get to customize based on what you are facing. But NR reinforcements certainly aren't as useful as fringe (many more options there). Lobot is always a bad comparison though, as he is a power 12 piece at this point.
Vsets have actually done a great job expanding NR reinforcement options.
New NR Leia for force sense
Borsk Fe'lea if facing bombs
Cade Padawan for essence of life
Wraith Squadron Pilot for swarms (or the new bomber)
You already mentioned force ghost and R2 - both very useful.
Kol Skywalker Ghost if facing Bastila, Atris, Exar Kun Ghost, etc
Rogue rookies for a 6 pt filler
Jan Ors or GA Special Guard for more firepower (especially with R2-PO)
even the training droid has its uses in some builds
So more great options to customize than one might think.
My point is that overall, reinforcements make this character better.
I think price would have to be 45+, or we have to temper something or shave something else off.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 9:16 pm
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meet in the middle at 42?
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 10:33 pm
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42 and lose stealth?
I don't really think he needs it. Most times it will be used early to get protective rolling.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 10:24 pm
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i like him with it, but if the others disagree then that is fine. It can be dropped.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 1:19 am
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This figure is very strong.
I truly believe that one of the biggest keys to our game in general is movement breakers. Nerfing (or at least strongly discouraging or hampering) out of turn movement breakers is massive.
In a swap squad it might effect one or two characters a round. With Resolnare in a mando squad or coordinated command in a Republic Commando squad - it effects MOST of the characters EVERY round. I am not against that - those two are VERY strong abilities and could use a counter. But what other collateral damage are we effecting?
I like the concept, and I want to go in this direction. I just think we need to acknowledge that it is very strong.
When he was at 35 points, he was perhaps a bit overcosted. Maybe he should have been about 30.
30 estimated original cost (- reserves, plus stealth and Disciplined leader) and add reinforcements should be a cost around 50. 42, even minus stealth (a minor thing in my opinion, he doesn't need LoS for anything) I'd rate him at a 9-9.5 power level.
I'm not completely opposed to that. We just need to accept that with our eyes open and not be surprised about it.
I'd love to hear Deri and Laura's viewpoint on this. I am cautious with powerful new abilities and figures - because a single figure that dramatically shifts the meta by itself is a BAD THING (we've seen ample evidence of that). But perhaps I am being overly cautious in this particular case. Better safe than sorry I.M.O.
Let's talk this out. I encourage discussion here.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 8:09 am
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I think he's very swingy. Against squads that are built around out of turn movement, he could probably cost 70 and be fine. But most squads only have a couple of characters that would be affected, if that. He'll never be played if we cost him toward his value against his best matchup.
At the same time, even in squads that only have a couple of affected characters, having those characters be activated before taking their turn is likely to be a major, and perhaps game swinging, hindrance. So even against those squads having that (undisruptible) CE is probably bumping his cost into the mid-high 30s. It's only really against squads with only incidental or no movement breakers he would be seriously overcosted. We need to take that swinginess into account, though.
If we want to do reinforcements and keep cost comparable to the first Garm, one thing we could do to temper is to drop the save to a 6. I agree that he doesn't need Stealth, but I don't think having it changes his value significantly. With the save dropped to a 6, affected characters would still have a reasonable chance to avoid activation, but the deterrent value is still there, too.
I'm terrible at costing things in general, so I can't say for sure what he should cost with the save at either level. But after thinking it through, I'm inclined to think that he should probably be in the high 40s or so with current stats and leaving the save at 11. If we dropped the save to 6, I could see him being more like 42.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 9:52 am
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Sure 42 and lose stealth then. I would rather not make the CE worse
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 1:23 pm
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who does the commander effect, affect?
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 1:35 pm
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Quote:
Commander Effect
Each enemy that changes position outside of its turn via its allies' abilities or commander effects is considered activated this round; save 11.
Swap, Tow, Levitation, Resol'nare, end of turn CE movement, and whatever else falls in there.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 2:07 pm
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It is concerning that a squad with Garm could counter other squads movement, but retain their own (ganner)
What if the CE effected both squads?
"I prefer a straight up fight to all this sneaking around" Han Solo
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 2:21 pm
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I like symmetrical abilities more than most, but I'm really not all that concerned about movement breakers in NR squads. There aren't that many (Ganner, Nei Rin technically), and they are not nearly as powerful as the ones we're trying to counter. Movement breakers are also not the NR's "thing" in the same way as for Mandos and Republic, for example. I just don't see the need to hamstring what they do have, and I really don't think it fits this piece.
Let's leave the CE as is and cost him appropriately. Not everything has to be give and take.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 2:57 pm
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urbanshmi2 wrote:
Movement breakers are also not the NR's "thing" in the same way as for Mandos and Republic, for example. I just don't see the need to hamstring what they do have, and I really don't think it fits this piece.
Name one competitive NR squad that doesn't use Ganner.
Levitate is as important to the NR as to the rebels.
The only reason i'm contemplating the CE is because you lose Dodonna.
If it was a straight nerf and the NR kept all its tricks it would be a no-no. But essentially this is creating a low activation NR squad that relies on a movement advantage.
The piece needs to be tested. The CE is pretty radical.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 3:11 pm
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From Garm's PT thread:
swinefeld wrote:
Without addressing any specific questions...
We're good. Passengers will not be affected by the CE when the transport moves (or is swapped).
They would be if passengers are swapped.
I'm going to have to write some FAQ on this one, for sure.
I thought I had this sorted, but I'm not sure anymore. Just wanted to add that back into the mix.
Edit: Found the definitive answer I was looking for, the above is correct.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 3:48 pm
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I didn't play Ganner in SCRUPLeS
But I see your point. I was perhaps a bit hasty to dismiss the suggestion.
I just see us doing a lot of reciprocal counters, which can work and be fun, but this feels like a Nerf without a need.
Edit: I'm still thinking about this. Might be coming around. Surprised by the idea, more than anything.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 12:11 pm
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Ok, after thinking about it some more, I think I'm all right with the idea of having it affect both squads from a gameplay perspective, although I'm still not convinced flavor-wise. My objection was more that I feel like this piece is already hard to play and build around, and I saw making another symmetrical ability as a further deterrent to playing him. But much as most NR squads do use Levitate, it's certainly possible to build without it, and there's nothing preventing someone from building without it if they wanted to avoid the negative altogether.
All of which I to say, if we want to try to get a couple of tests in with the CE affecting both sides, I'm on board.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 12:59 pm
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Do we have any two-way effects in this set? Jam transmissions was at one point, but I can't think of any others off the top of my head.
It's definitely still advantage to Garm's team. They get to prepare for it.
I can still see Ganner being used with him. He would just be used slightly differently. At the end of a round, setting up a beginning of the round strike, or have Han step out and take some shots and Ganner pull him back to safety.
Other squads will likely be more reliant on thier movement breakers, so Garm's squad, built and prepared for it will be better off.
We could keep the cost down that way too obviously.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 1:18 pm
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Yeah, I think I was thinking of Jam Transmission before it got changed. I think we talked about a couple of others, as well, but maybe none that stayed that way.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 2:28 pm
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Regardless, we should figure out if it is right for this ability on this figure.
I think it should be tested.
At the very least - we should build squads to see what we can do with it.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 9:23 am
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TimmerB123 wrote:
What if the CE effected both squads?
Nope not what I had attended at all. I am not sure what the problem is besides we are just down to two characters to argue about.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 10:13 am
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LESHIPPY wrote:
TimmerB123 wrote:
What if the CE effected both squads?
Nope not what I had attended at all. I am not sure what the problem is besides we are just down to two characters to argue about.
Three, actually. Aves is not done yet.
fingersandteeth wrote:
The piece needs to be tested. The CE is pretty radical.
Agreed.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 11:50 am
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forgot aves sorry
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 12:30 pm
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LESHIPPY wrote:
forgot aves sorry
I had thought he was done, until recently, so I was just reminding everyone.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 1:34 pm
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I think this is where we are at.
Garm should be good. You are wrapping up 42 points in a guy that ha some severe limitations when it comes to NR. you only get one other commander effect and you can't have any of the normal tricks in NR.
PT
Quote:
25/45
Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless Tactician
New Republic
42 pts
HP 70
DEF 18
ATK +7
DMG 20
Special Abilities
Unique
Disciplined Leader [This character's commander effect cannot be suppressed]
Fire At Will [At the end of this character's turn, 1 living follower without Melee Attack within 6 squares may choose an ally within line of sight; that ally and all characters adjacent to it take 10 damage]
Independent [Your squad cannot contain more than 1 other New Republic commander]
New Republic Reinforcements 20 [During setup, after seeing your opponent's squad, you can add up to 20 points of New Republic characters to your squad]
Rival [Cannot be in a squad with any character whose name contains Akbar, Dodonna or Mon Mothma]
Stealth [If this character has cover, he does not count as the nearest enemy for an attacker farther than 6 squares when choosing targets]
Tactician +8 [Add +8 to the initiative roll except on a roll of 1]
Traps [Enemy characters within 6 squares get -4 Defense]
Commander Effect
Each enemy that changes position outside of its turn via its allies' abilities or commander effects is considered activated this round; save 11.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 5:33 pm
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I thought Stealth was getting dropped at 42? He doesn't really need it, and I'm not sure it fits, anyway.
Swinefeld posted a partial list of things affected by the CE in the QC thread. I don't think it's too much, but it's a good reminder of just how far-reaching this is.
Yes, he comes with a lot of limitations, and it's still very swingy in some respects. But Independent only limits NR commanders--he can still have Fringe commanders, of which there are at least a few worth playing in NR. So you can still play pilots with the Klat Captain and either Jag or Kell, or maybe even the new Lando. I'm sure there are other combos I'm not thinking of.
Anyway, in the interest of harmony, if you want to keep Stealth and the CE as is, cost should probably come in more like 47.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 6:22 pm
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I think testing is the way forward from here.
With disruption out of the picture for the moment, that takes away one significant 'swing' factor. Squads with access to save rerolls or bonuses will suffer much less. Free CE movement, CoCo etc. will likely shift to moving pieces that have already activated.
He needs a handful of good tests, minimum. Adjust, and then test some more
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 8:25 am
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I want to keep him in the low 40's so if we have to lose stealth that is fine.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 9:34 am
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We tested a Garm squad last night against Mace in the Face (J will post a report at some point). In the early going, the CE really slowed me down, partly because I got some terrible save rolls with Mace. A squad that didn't have force point rerolls would likely have struggled more. Anyway, it definitely didn't feel too strong at 42--the squad wasn't optimized, but there also wasn't a lot of room to fiddle with.
Obviously needs tested against a shooter squad, but the consensus was that he really didn't need stealth.
This is such a tough piece to cost so it will be played. Low 40s feels reasonable in most matchups, but there will be squads that could just be wrecked by this, and I don't know how to weigh that.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 10:59 am
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I'm still thinking about the CE,
it says allies, so a figure that uses suprise move or intuition of its own volition is unaffected?
So Kelborn would not face a save himself, but all those who use it will?
What about if you pawn something and it moves? Does that piece need to check for activation status? If it does than this piece starts to become more and more useful.
To me, this seems like a good trade off because it will start to make an impact on squads looking to move a lot outside of its own turn and force people to build with pieces that are more self reliant. I think that will generally be good for the game.
Also, i think the reinforcements should stay as ALL NR. there just isn't much choice otherwise and a lot of the uniques you want will have commander effects that make building hard. You will likely bring in 2 pieces, often one and at the most 3.
His reinforcements won't be used to increase activations (you can only get a max of 3) but mainly to counter squads.
Seeing as this piece seems like a counter piece, that seems to fit. I have no problem if this piece is strong as it will inevitably be in a low activation squad.
I think its effect on the game will be beneficial as it starts to attack some of the wayward movement outside of turns like the commandos and the mando's.
If what i've posted here about the ce is correct then i think i'm close to calling this piece.
He is far more interesting than i first thought but that's because of the CE. Fire at will is odd and likely to be seldom used so you are using him to slow the opponents and improving your init chance while sacrificing activation and tempo control.
I'm pretty happy with that trade off and can't see it breaking the game, or even being a NPE (unless you like running swarms with massive amounts of out of turn movement.).
I think the cost is about right. 22 points for the CE and init seems a lot but the reinforcements has some tasty options. He takes up a chunk of change so i think he is about where he needs to be.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:41 am
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Deri, the squads you built in the PT forum are much stronger than the one that we build to PT with. Which is good. But they are not crazy powerful. He is tricky to build with.
It is my understanding that every thing you stated is correct. Intuition and surprise move will be unaffected Kelborn can still use his own resolnare, but everyone else that benefits from it will have to make a save. As far as pawn, if you activate first then pawn second it will have no effect. Doing it in reverse will require a save. Having the option to do it both ways is better, so putting a risk on one of those ways (usually the superior way) does weaken pawn.
Resolnare and coordinated command get hit hardest (good). Swap, tow and master lift all take a hit (also good). There inevitably will be some collateral damage to abilities that don't need to be nerfed, but such is the nature of an effect like this.
It is a very powerful CE, but that's kind of the point.
I think it's probably fine at 42. Probably drop stealth and call him good.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Garm Bel Iblis, Ruthless TacticianPostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:52 am
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Agreed on stealth.
No need for it, doesn't really fit the character, keeps the cost down.
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