TimmerB123 Offline
Post subject: Re: 13. Yaddle, Jedi MasterPostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 8:47 pm
Force light is gonna go. Just not enough room.
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TimmerB123 Offline
Post subject: Re: 13. Yaddle, Jedi MasterPostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 12:58 pm
Quote:
Quote:
Force Sacrifice [Force 3, usable whenever this character or an ally would take damage: For the rest of the turn, no character in your squad can have its Hit Points reduced below 10. At the end of the turn, this character is defeated.]
Quote:
Markedman247 wrote:
Is this an inclusive ability? Ie living, non-living , or both?
Fair question. Designers - what do you think?
I think it might be slightly more accurate as living only, but for room on the card, simplicity, and making the ability slightly more useful - I'm leaning toward fully inclusive.
Losing Doombot might tip the scales toward not using the ability
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TimmerB123 Offline
Post subject: Re: 13. Yaddle, Jedi MasterPostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 4:28 am
Dave -
So her rapport - doable?
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TimmerB123 Offline
Post subject: Re: 13. Yaddle, Jedi MasterPostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 1:16 am
Quote:
Quote:
13/45
Yaddle, Jedi Master
Republic
Cost 44
HP 90
Def 21
Att +11
Dam 20
Special Abilities
Unique. Melee Attack; Double Attack
Camaraderie [An ally named Oppo Rancisis gains Mettle]
Mettle [If this character spends 1 Force point to reroll, add +4 to the result]
Rapport [Unique Republic characters under this character's cost with a force rating and a lightsaber who do not have either Lightsaber Defense or Force Renewal cost 2 less]
Force Powers
Force 2. Force Renewal 2; Master of the Force 2
Force Sacrifice [Force 3, usable on an enemy's turn whenever this character or an ally would take damage: For the rest of the turn, no character in your squad can have its Hit Points reduced below 10. At the end of the turn, this character is defeated.]
Lightsaber Defense [Force 1: When hit by an attack, this character takes no damage with a save of 11]
Morichro [Force 2, usable only on this character's turn: range 6; Target enemy gets -4 Attack, gains Speed 4 and cannot make attacks of opportunity until the end of this character's next turn, or until she is defeated]
Commander Effect
Unique Republic allies under this character's cost with a force rating and a lightsaber who do not have either Lightsaber Defense or Force Renewal, gain Mettle, Lightsaber Defense and Force Renewal 1.
"She embraced, and, eventually achieved unity with the Force."
―Even Piell
PT
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LESHIPPY Online
Post subject: Re: 13. Yaddle, Jedi MasterPostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 11:21 am
PT
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TimmerB123 Offline
Post subject: Re: 13. Yaddle, Jedi MasterPostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 9:24 am
Bump for Laura or Deri
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urbanshmi2 Offline
Post subject: Re: 13. Yaddle, Jedi MasterPostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 1:47 pm
Grand Admiral
Grand Admiral
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2013 6:22 pm
Posts: 832
PT
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swinefeld Offline
Post subject: Re: 13. Yaddle, Jedi MasterPostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 7:50 pm
Fixed up the wording of Morichro.
It's not easy to explain why and how much I dislike the word salad that makes up Rapport and the CE. Fortunately, I don't really need to. They wreak enough havoc on card space to scrap them for that reason alone.
The intent is admirable, but broad-brush boosts to crappy pieces are tricky to limit to just what really needs it, and have potential to impact future design. I would recommend picking a couple old characters that fit in her story line, and maybe they even fall into the group you are aiming at, then boost those pieces specifically.
It would be much simpler, and make for a better looking card. Please think about it.
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TimmerB123 Offline
Post subject: Re: 13. Yaddle, Jedi MasterPostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 11:19 pm
Fixed up the wording of Morichro.
It's not easy to explain why and how much I dislike the word salad that makes up Rapport and the CE. Fortunately, I don't really need to. They wreak enough havoc on card space to scrap them for that reason alone.
The intent is admirable, but broad-brush boosts to crappy pieces are tricky to limit to just what really needs it, and have potential to impact future design. I would recommend picking a couple old characters that fit in her story line, and maybe they even fall into the group you are aiming at, then boost those pieces specifically.
It would be much simpler, and make for a better looking card. Please think about it.
I've been waiting for this comment
I understand what you are saying and am considering it thoroughly.
I'm glad you at least think the intent is admirable.
If only we could say, "characters from the clone strike set" I'd be happy
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swinefeld Offline
Post subject: Re: 13. Yaddle, Jedi MasterPostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 9:35 am
Master of Time and Space
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Posts: 5562
Location: Southern IL
TimmerB123 wrote:
swinefeld wrote:
If only we could say, "characters from the clone strike set" I'd be happy
I'd love it if we could just say 'single attack'.
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TimmerB123 Offline
Post subject: Re: 13. Yaddle, Jedi MasterPostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 10:19 am
That nearly exact thing was attempted with Master Yoda. IMO, that was a failure. (Coincidentally these two are the exact same price, and lets face it - Yaddle IS female Yoda)
If we went with the single attack route - how would we disclude twin? (Does it innately do that?)
Regardless, if we are going this route at all, it has to be unqiue, republic, under her cost, force users with lightsabers. So that is already a mouthful.
sigh
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Weeks Offline
Post subject: Re: 13. Yaddle, Jedi MasterPostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 9:48 pm
Seeing as Qui-Gon's CE is kinda doing the same thing why not just have Yaddle play the support role? Sacrifice is really good, her D is really good. Why not have her CE just be Allies gain Mettle? Somewhere around 30 as her cost and her debuff powers with that CE would give her her own little niche. And Reroll saves Yoda would pair incredibly well with her.
I kinda feel like she's trying to do too much and rehash Master Yoda when just a debuff/booster for republic at a nice price point is probably more her speed.
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swinefeld Offline
Post subject: Re: 13. Yaddle, Jedi MasterPostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 11:52 pm
Master of Time and Space
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Location: Southern IL
I like what Weeks is saying. CS Yoda!
I was going to suggest something sorta similar to Master Yoda, but scoped toward this:
Quote:
Quote:
During her time as a Jedi, Yaddle represented the Jedi Council on many off world missions. She went to Asmeru in 33 BBY with a group of Jedi including Vergere, Saesee Tiin, Depa Billaba and Qui-Gon Jinn, as well as his Padawan Obi-Wan Kenobi, where they were attacked by Nebula Front members, but managed to defeat them.
Commander Effect (?)
Allies named Saesee Tiin, Depa Billaba, or Qui-Gon Jinn may make an immediate attack at the end of their turn.
So, not exactly like Master Yoda, and for just those pieces. I'm not sure I'm thinking through it correctly, but if I am, it would be kinda kickass with Master Yoda. Move 12, immediate attack, then Yoda's attack. If that doesn't fly, oh well, it's close to his, but better as they can basically double/triple standing still.
Just a half-baked idea I was having some fun with. Weeks makes sense, she's pretty good on her own without doing much for others.
But hey, Shaak Ti (JM) filled her spot on the council after she died, and dying is part of her thing, so maybe Yaddle could hand over some power to her when she goes. K, I'll shut up now.
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urbanshmi2 Offline
Post subject: Re: 13. Yaddle, Jedi MasterPostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 12:28 pm
I actually like both Davids's comments (talk about a mouthful!).
I think we're closing in on this.
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TimmerB123 Offline
Post subject: Re: 13. Yaddle, Jedi MasterhPostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 1:55 pm
Quote:
Weeks wrote:
Seeing as Qui-Gon's CE is kinda doing the same thing why not just have Yaddle play the support role? Sacrifice is really good, her D is really good. Why not have her CE just be Allies gain Mettle? Somewhere around 30 as her cost and her debuff powers with that CE would give her her own little niche. And Reroll saves Yoda would pair incredibly well with her.
I kinda feel like she's trying to do too much and rehash Master Yoda when just a debuff/booster for republic at a nice price point is probably more her speed.
It's funny, Quiggy started out with something different as a CE and was changed to what it is now. Yaddle's main focus was to attempt to make the currently unplayable old Jedi playable. Perhaps they are perminantly unplayable.
That aside, there is a very specific reason she has to be 44points or more: Jorus C'boath Jedi Master. (how quickly everyone forgets)
Between Froce Sacrifice and Morichro, those force powers would be very strong on, say a 14 pt piece.
We spent a good bit of energy shaping those two force powers, and I think in a way those have become the focus of this piece.
I am happy with Force Sacrifice, even if it will only come up in very specific circumstances. It's more the threat of the option rather than using it frequently. I am totally fine with that.
Morichro is interesting and new. On an important 44 pt piece - could be good. With Jorus giving it out - likely broken.
So options are: Rival Jorus (which makes zero sense thematically), 44pts or higher, or scrap her force powers. 44 pts or higher seemed like the best option.
Correct me if I am wrong, but Swinefeld - the big issue is the rapport, correct? Not the CE?
So I think we are at a point where we just need to drop rapport all together, instead of trying to tie it in with the CE.
That's a good first step.
As far as her CE just giving out mettle to everyone, that wouldn't work. There would have to be a limit. (Her cost or under, etc.) We don't want a map full of mini GOWKs. Can you imagine giving new Ani/Obi Mettle? Nuts!!!
I really think we need to keep her at 44pts (or higher) and make her worth that.
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Weeks Offline
Post subject: Re: 13. Yaddle, Jedi MasterhPostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 1:59 pm
Quote:
TimmerB123 wrote:
Weeks wrote:
Seeing as Qui-Gon's CE is kinda doing the same thing why not just have Yaddle play the support role? Sacrifice is really good, her D is really good. Why not have her CE just be Allies gain Mettle? Somewhere around 30 as her cost and her debuff powers with that CE would give her her own little niche. And Reroll saves Yoda would pair incredibly well with her.
I kinda feel like she's trying to do too much and rehash Master Yoda when just a debuff/booster for republic at a nice price point is probably more her speed.
It's funny, Quiggy started out with something different as a CE and was changed to what it is now. Yaddle's main focus was to attempt to make the currently unplayable old Jedi playable. Perhaps they are perminantly unplayable.
That aside, there is a very specific reason she has to be 44points or more: Jorus C'boath Jedi Master. (how quickly everyone forgets)
Between Froce Sacrifice and Morichro, those force powers would be very strong on, say a 14 pt piece.
We spent a good bit of energy shaping those two force powers, and I think in a way those have become the focus of this piece.
I am happy with Force Sacrifice, even if it will only come up in very specific circumstances. It's more the threat of the option rather than using it frequently. I am totally fine with that.
Morichro is interesting and new. On an important 44 pt piece - could be good. With Jorus giving it out - likely broken.
So options are: Rival Jorus (which makes zero sense thematically), 44pts or higher, or scrap her force powers. 44 pts or higher seemed like the best option.
Correct me if I am wrong, but Swinefeld - the big issue is the rapport, correct? Not the CE?
So I think we are at a point where we just need to drop rapport all together, instead of trying to tie it in with the CE.
That's a good first step.
As far as her CE just giving out mettle to everyone, that wouldn't work. There would have to be a limit. (Her cost or under, etc.) We don't want a map full of mini GOWKs. Can you imagine giving new Ani/Obi Mettle? Nuts!!!
I really think we need to keep her at 44pts (or higher) and make her worth that.
Ani/Obi get mettle and init control for 16 points. Yaddle doesn't really work with them. Making bad pieces to help bad pieces doesn't work. We tried that with Master Yoda and he's not played.
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TimmerB123 Offline
Post subject: Re: 13. Yaddle, Jedi MasterPostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 2:17 pm
Quote:
Weeks wrote:
Ani/Obi get mettle and init control for 16 points.
Missed that combo. That is an issue. but that is for their thread.
Quote:
Weeks wrote:
Making bad pieces to help bad pieces doesn't work.
Of course it doesn't. The goal is to make a good piece that helps bad ones.
Perhaps that is not going to happen with this piece now.
Re-reading through this thread was enlightening. I think sometimes we forget how we got to a certain point with a fig, and just see where it's at now and make knee-jerk reactions to change it (I'm guilty too).
As a side note, this made me giggle:
from September 15th, 2014:
Quote:
TimmerB123 wrote:
I see where you are going on this . . . First off isn't this a rapport nightmare for Dave?
So consider the rapport gone. The CE in flux. Let's talk about the new force powers and Jorus. Let's get that sorted out first.
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Weeks Offline
Post subject: Re: 13. Yaddle, Jedi MasterPostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 3:02 pm
If you want her job to be saving people just make that a CE.
CE: The first each turn a unique ally would be defeated it instead returns to play in its current square with 10 HP.
That CE and some general Jedi powers at around 30 makes her a piece that would completely change how deep strikers work without any clunky wording.
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TimmerB123 Offline
Post subject: Re: 13. Yaddle, Jedi MasterhPostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 3:22 pm
Like I said - We spent a good bit of energy shaping those two force powers, and I think in a way those have become the focus of this piece.
I certainly don't want to make deep strikers better. That is already a tried and true proven method. The only thing that tempers it is the fact that the deep striker is then in extreme danger.
We specifically made morichro a force power rather than an SA or CE in part to not screw the Vong. They are mostly melee and don't have the FP to make up for the -2 speed penalty. Other factions can deal with it, it's just a hinderance, not making it so someone can stay completely safe within 6 of a big baddie.
As far as what is next with this character, I really think we should focus on how to handle Jorus and her. Scrapping the entire thing and starting over (which is essentially what some of the above suggestions boil down to) should be the absolute last option.
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LESHIPPY Online
Post subject: Re: 13. Yaddle, Jedi MasterPostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 3:29 pm
Yeah I don't want to start completely over. I dont' have time to read through everything at the moment. I will try to look through it tonight and if the other designers can look at t as well and then the 4 of us can come together on what we think will be the right directions.
Thanks to everyone for providing input on this.
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