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 Post subject: Inside the minds of the design team - Sabine Wren
PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2015 10:21 am 
Imperial Dignitaries
Imperial Dignitaries

Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 12:17 pm
Posts: 5934
LESHIPPY -
moved to rebels instead of mandos
_________________________
TimmerB123
Just for faction distribution alone, I like her in Mandos with affinity for rebels - but it can be discussed as we learn more.
______________________________
LESHIPPY
Working on set order a bit. Do we think she will be a mando with affinity with rebels or vice versa?
__________________________
TimmerB123
Quote:
LESHIPPY wrote:
Working on set order a bit. Do we think she will be a mando with affinity with rebels or vice versa?



We have learned she is actually from Mandalore, (She was in the academy there when something horrible happened).

Since this is really the dawn (or very early on) of the rebel faction, they are all sort of finding their way there.

For Sabine I think there is justification for either, but I personally feel like it's more interesting to have her be a Mando that is working with the rebels.

But if others want to go the opposite way - it's not a big deal
______________________________
LESHIPPY
I am good with her being Mando with afinity
___________________________
The_Celestial_Warrior

Is that what she said? Remember I have horrible hearing but I took it that she was at the Imperial Academy when the Empire attacked Mandalore or something.


Edit: Turns out that its a mixture of the two. She is Mandalorian and did train at the Imperial Academy.
___________________________

fingersandteeth

9/9

Sabine Wren
Mandalorian
Cost 24

HP 70
Def 19
Att +9
Dam 10

Special Abilities
Unique. Twin Attack
Affinity (Rebels)
Cunning Attack +10 (+4 Attack and +10 Damage against an enemy who has not activated this round)
Greater Mobile Attack (Can move both before and after attacking. This character can make extra attacks even if it moves this turn, but it must make them all before resuming movement.)
Grenades 20 (Replaces attacks: range 6; 20 damage to target and to each character adjacent to that target; save 11)
Mines (An enemy that moves adjacent to this character takes 20 damage; save 11)
Proximity Mines 40 (Replaces attacks: range 6; target enemy is mined until the end of its next turn. At the beginning of the mined character's next turn, the mined character and each character adjacent to that target take 40 damage, save 11 for 20 damage.)
Rigged Detonators (Characters in or adjacent to a square with low objects automatically fail saves against this character's attacks and abilities)
Stealth (If this character has cover, it does not count as the nearest enemy for an attacker farther than 6 squares when choosing targets)


“This is gonna be fun. Very fun.”
__________________________


TimmerB123
She's pretty damn good. My first gut instinct is that she'd need to either be toned down slightly or points raised. That's just a first reaction though.
___________________________

LESHIPPY
I agree might be alot for 24. Pretty low damage output as just a straight up shooter.

I am wondering how Rigged Detonator and Proximity Mines 40 interact. Will the character automatically fail saves when next or adjacent to low objects even though it is not on Sabine's turn?
______________________________


swinefeld


I vaguely recall a similar question coming up from something in a previous set. As I recall, the ongoing effect on later turns is no longer tied to the enemy that caused it. I'll see if I can find it to confirm.
_______________________

LESHIPPY
thanks
_____________________

swinefeld
Quote:
sithborg wrote:
No. Similar to Force Corruption, the status of being mined is not dependent on the "mining" character.



No interaction between Rigged Detonators and Proximity Mines. Just Grenades and normal Mines.
____________________________

fingersandteeth
Well that takes the certainty of big hit away (proximity mines and rigged detonators) and she's a pretty squishy chick.

70 hp and a need to be close to get her sure thing grenades off is kind of dangerous for her. Stealth and mines are her defense. She can stand on cover and be assured that she will give out at least 20 dmg but most melee pieces would be willing to take that for the chance to off her. Guns will take her out pretty quick.

Max damage of 40 from any source isn't really much to be concerned with.

She's a secondary character/support piece. Other than her mines/stealth/rigged detonator combo I don't really see much to concern me at that cost.
____________________________

TimmerB123
So if she were super stealthed, she'd be indestructable to swarms (20 hp or less).
____________________

fingersandteeth
well there is a lot of dependables in that statement.

being superstealthed would require a faction that can give it. Mando's don't and rebels can only give it to commando's (IIRC) unless there is something recent i have over looked (a possibility, especially if people have plans for this kind of thing this set).

One thing that has been a source of contention of late are the rampant use of swarms, so in effect she is poised to counteract that except that the shooter swarms can get close enough to shoot her without troubling themselves with mines.

She would have to sit on cover for the mines to be a sure thing, not difficult, but not always possible.

Superstealth is usually granted by CE and that means disruptive, ABM and to a lesser extent disctraction turn it off.

A vong SS bomb swarm would welcome facing her. Run adjacent and her mines work against her. 4 workers that run at her while she is in cover and she's dead.

So in answer to your question I think it depends on the swarm and what she comes with. But clearly, i've designed her with certain NPE's in mind.

I'm actually thinking of simplifying her, removing proximity mines and just giving her grenades 40 but i think the rigged detonators and mines should stay for theme and game mechanics.
________________________________

LESHIPPY
Grenade launcher might help her out. Just thinking.

Stun Mortar sort fits and helps with range.

What if we created a new grenade? Flash Bang Grenade - (Replaces attacks: range 6; 20 damage to target and to each character adjacent to that target; save 11. Each character that takes damage is considered activated.)

Could lower damage to 10 if needed.
___________________________


urbanshmi2
I think we have a lot of new abilities in this set already.

Simplifying is good, but she should be a explosives beast.

I like the idea of damage 10--in all reality, if she's rolling the dice, you're probably playing her wrong :lol:

___________________

TimmerB123
I sort of think she should be all about the explosives.

Right now she seems like she'll mostly be used for mobile twin shots.

What about dropping twin and adding overload?


Also - why GMA vs plain mobile? There is no way to give her double, is there?
_____________________
fingersandteeth
The show had an episode where she used a pair of pistols along with mines to kill a load of little creatures that wouldn't step in the sun.

With that as influence I was kind of building her as a gunslinger with grenades and mines. I had her with double greater mobile before but then she would be balanced more towards shooty, i changed it to twin and forgot to change greater mobile back to mobile.

i think i'll just get rid of twin and cunning and add double and over load. That'll make her a weak scout at range but nasty bombs up close.

interestingly, proximity mines is not boosted much by overload, you can hit two targets but hitting the same one twice that curbs her max damage at 60 without investing a lot into boosting her shooting. (Han RH and czerka)
Quote:
fingersandteeth wrote:
Quote:

9/9

Sabine Wren
Mandalorian
Cost 24

HP 70
Def 19
Att +9
Dam 10

Special Abilities
Unique. Double Attack
Affinity (Rebels)
Greater Mobile Attack (Can move both before and after attacking. This character can make extra attacks even if it moves this turn, but it must make them all before resuming movement.)
Grenades 20 (Replaces attacks: range 6; 20 damage to target and to each character adjacent to that target; save 11)
Mines (An enemy that moves adjacent to this character takes 20 damage; save 11)
OverloadCan use 2 abilities that replace attacks instead of 1 on its turn
Proximity Mines 40 (Replaces attacks: range 6; target enemy is mined until the end of its next turn. At the beginning of the mined character's next turn, the mined character and each character adjacent to that target take 40 damage, save 11 for 20 damage.)
Rigged Detonators (Characters in or adjacent to a square with low objects automatically fail saves against this character's attacks and abilities)
Stealth (If this character has cover, it does not count as the nearest enemy for an attacker farther than 6 squares when choosing targets)


“This is gonna be fun. Very fun.”

___________________________________


TimmerB123
D'oah.

I thought her stats were starting to look similar. My fault for encouraging to go in this direction. I'm afraid it might be too similar. . .


35/45 Mira of Nar Shaddaa 28pts
(VR) Fringe

HP: 70
Def: 17
Att: +10
Dmg: 20

Special Abilities
Unique. Mandalorian
Mobile Attack; Twin Attack

Agile [This character can move 2 spaces at the end of her turn]

Bounty Hunter +4 [+4 Attack against Unique enemies]

Explosives Expert [+4 to this character’s save rolls against abilities whose names contain Grenades, Mines, or Missiles]

Grenades 20 [Replaces attacks: range 6; 20 damage to target and to each character adjacent to that target; save 11]

Overload [Can use 2 abilities that replace attacks instead of 1 on her turn]

Rigged Detonators [Characters in or adjacent to a square with low objects automatically fail saves against this character's attacks and abilities]

Satchel Charge [Replaces attacks: Designate 1 adjacent door as open; it remains open for the rest of the skirmish and cannot be closed]

Force Powers
Force 3
Force Sense [Force 1, usable only on this character's turn: Enemy characters lose Stealth for the rest of the round]



So - a Fringe/Mando and a Mando/Rebel.

Cost 28 vs Cost 24

Both 70 hp
10 attack vs 9 attack
17 def vs 19 def
20 dam vs 10 dam

Mobile Twin vs Double GMA

Both have Grenades 20
Both have Overload
Both have Rigged Detonators

Mira has Explosives Expert (which Sabine should have BTW)

Then Mira has Agile, BH +4, Satchel Charge and Force Sense

Sabine (currently) has proximity mines 40, mines and stealth.



So - where do we go with this? I think Sabine is better overall, but 4 pts less. Granted Fringe vs Rebel/mando does make a difference.

They are different, but do we strive to make them MORE different?

Clearly Sabine is REALLY all about the bombs, and has better defense (stealth and mines). Mira can actually be a second/third attacker from afar before her bomb stuff even kicks in, and force sense and BH makes her more of an offensive threat.

But I can't help be see a heap of similarities

_________________
Really???....... DRINK


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 Post subject: Re: Inside the minds of the design team - Sabine Wren
PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2015 10:26 am 
Imperial Dignitaries
Imperial Dignitaries

Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 12:17 pm
Posts: 5934
LESHIPPY
She should probably get the Ghost Crew identifier. This way should could get Survival Expert from Hera. Maybe add evade on to her?

_______________________________

fingersandteeth
Quote:
TimmerB123 wrote:
D'oah.

I thought her stats were starting to look similar. My fault for encouraging to go in this direction. I'm afraid it might be too similar. . .

.........




Well currently its rigged detonators, grenades 20 and overload that are the main similarities. Mines/rigged D's is nightmare for strafe/melee where the other is a strong secondary.

Rigged detonators is a must, the whole thing is the mines/rigged detonators cos that's what she does in the scene where the inspiration comes from. Then there is the twin pistols, because they were also prominent.

Proximity mines is about the closest this game has to a delayed explosive device when i added it. Its a shame it doesn't work with RD because then i think overload would be unessecary.
I'm a bit apprehensive about the proximity mines now that it doesn't work with RD, its a rules loop hole that will be confused and is something that i would rather avoid.

I think they are inherently going to be similar but Mira is more consistently effective at range and has a load of other tricks.
Currently you really want to get close with Sabine because you want to go for the possible 60 grenades/detonators rather than stay back like Mira would do.

How they are at the moment they are similar in some respects but ultimately different when you come down to it.


Sabine should have ghost crew. She can get evade so i'm not sure its necessary to add it.

Perhaps a stealth grenade launcher?
Quote:
Quote:

9/9

Sabine Wren
Mandalorian
Cost 24

HP 70
Def 19
Att +9
Dam 10

Special Abilities
Unique. Ghost Crew. Double Attack
Affinity (Rebels)
Greater Mobile Attack (Can move both before and after attacking. This character can make extra attacks even if it moves this turn, but it must make them all before resuming movement.)
Grenade Launcher (Grenades special abilities on this character have range 12)
Grenades 20 (Replaces attacks: range 6; 20 damage to target and to each character adjacent to that target; save 11)
Mines (An enemy that moves adjacent to this character takes 20 damage; save 11)
Overload Can use 2 abilities that replace attacks instead of 1 on its turn
Rigged Detonators (Characters in or adjacent to a square with low objects automatically fail saves against this character's attacks and abilities)
Stealth (If this character has cover, it does not count as the nearest enemy for an attacker farther than 6 squares when choosing targets)


“This is gonna be fun. Very fun.”

______________________________

TimmerB123
Instead of rigged detonators - can we just give her an ability that enemies within 6 gain -4 to saves? Then it would work with proximity mines as well as anything else (could be more useful in certain situations), but doesn't mean it works 100% of the time on mines? Enemies will still USUALLY fail the mines save, but at least there is a chance.

A -4 to saves for enemies within 6 achieves several things:

1. Mines working 100% of the time is tempered
2. It works with proximity mines
3. She's not quite as blatantly similar to Mira of Nar Shadda
4. Other characters benefit from her being in the action.
___________________________________

fingersandteeth
it doesn't work 100 percent on mines, you need to be in cover

really, the big change to really clamp the similarity (other than both being mando) was adding overload
______________________________


urbanshmi2
Quote:
TimmerB123 wrote:
Instead of rigged detonators - can we just give her an ability that enemies within 6 gain -4 to saves? Then it would work with proximity mines as well as anything else (could be more useful in certain situations), but doesn't mean it works 100% of the time on mines? Enemies will still USUALLY fail the mines save, but at least there is a chance.

A -4 to saves for enemies within 6 achieves several things:

1. Mines working 100% of the time is tempered
2. It works with proximity mines
3. She's not quite as blatantly similar to Mira of Nar Shadda
4. Other characters benefit from her being in the action.



I like the idea of a -4 to saves. Could be like giving out the opposite of Explosives Expert (so just on Mines, Grenades, Proximity Mines, etc., but not necessarily Evade and stuff like that).
__________________________

fingersandteeth
sigh, i guess i'll concede, its not like other character types don't share the same abilities but if we really are concerned it will be a problem then i'll change things up.

so now she shares explosive expert (as suggested) grenades 10 and overload.


Quote:
Quote:

9/9

Sabine Wren
Mandalorian
Cost 24

HP 70
Def 19
Att +9
Dam 10

Special Abilities
Unique. Ghost Crew. Double Attack
Affinity (Rebels)
Explosives Expert (+4 to this character’s save rolls against abilities whose names contain Grenades, Mines, or Missiles)
Explosive Traps (Enemies within 6 squares get -4 to saves against abilities that contain mines, grenades or missiles)
Greater Mobile Attack (Can move both before and after attacking. This character can make extra attacks even if it moves this turn, but it must make them all before resuming movement.)
Grenades 20 (Replaces attacks: range 6; 20 damage to target and to each character adjacent to that target; save 11)
Mines (An enemy that moves adjacent to this character takes 20 damage; save 11)
Overload Can use 2 abilities that replace attacks instead of 1 on its turn
Proximity Mines 40 (Replaces attacks: range 6; target enemy is mined until the end of its next turn. At the beginning of the mined character's next turn, the mined character and each character adjacent to that target take 40 damage, save 11 for 20 damage.)
Stealth (If this character has cover, it does not count as the nearest enemy for an attacker farther than 6 squares when choosing targets)


“This is gonna be fun. Very fun.”



I dunno, perhaps it might be worth just scrapping and starting again at a different cost point.
_____________________________________

TimmerB123
Didn't mean to cause frustration. I don't think it has to be any certain way - it just jumped out at me.

It's all up for discussion
_______________________

fingersandteeth
well its a valid point. The comparison is inevitable. I guess the task now is to make them fill two different roles as their characters are similar.

Mando chicks with guns and explosives.

Mira is a Jack though. She does everything door control, good attacks, excellent direct damage, defense negation, situational attack boosts, so its going to be by excelling in one category where the roles will diverge.

need to think on it.
___________________________

LESHIPPY Online
Post subject: Re: Mini Set ? Sabine WrenPostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 9:39 am
Imperial Dignitaries
Imperial Dignitaries

Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 1:17 pm
Posts: 5797
I guess we need to ask is if we want to be best with Rebels or Mandos? Or do we want them to be equal?

Here is another ability that is already out there that could be used.
Flash Grenade (Replaces attacks: range 6; target enemy and each adjacent enemy get -4 Attack until the end of the round; save 11)

Which makes me wonder, and I am just throwing this out there, what if we look at something that is more of a beginning of the round option.

Intuition
Mobile Attack
Overload
Rigged Detonators
Grenades 20
Flash Grenades
Possible - Grenade Launcher

This would allow you to use intuition, hit an enemy or group for 20 with gernades and then lower there attack with the flash grenades. I think this feel different from Mira. Other bits could be added Evade, Stealth, Prox Mines, What ever.

I do like the explosive traps idea.

Another thought do we want to allow here to negate Self Desturct guys i thought we came up with an ability that did this, but I can't think of it off the top of my head. If I remeber right it was an adjacent ability. However we could add expert and make it with in range 6.
_____________________________

swinefeld
Quote:
LESHIPPY wrote:
Another thought do we want to allow here to negate Self Desturct guys i thought we came up with an ability that did this, but I can't think of it off the top of my head. If I remeber right it was an adjacent ability. However we could add expert and make it with in range 6.



The SA you're thinking of is Defuse Bomb (has 3 square range)
______________________

fingersandteeth
Quote:
Quote:
Sabine Wren
Cost 24

HP 70
Def 18
Atk 10
Dmg 10

Unique. Ghost Crew. Double Attack
Explosive Traps (Enemy characters within 6 squares get -4 Defense and -4 to saves against abilities that contain mines, grenades or missiles)
Mines (An enemy that moves adjacent to this character takes 20 damage; save 11)
Overload (Can use 2 abilities that replace attacks instead of 1 on its turn)
Proximity Mines 40 (Replaces attacks: range 6; target enemy is mined until the end of its next turn. At the beginning of the mined character's next turn, the mined character and each character adjacent to that target take 40 damage, save 11 for 20 damage.)
Stealth (If this character has cover, it does not count as the nearest enemy for an attacker farther than 6 squares when choosing targets)
Thorium Charge (Replaces Attacks: Designate 1 door within 6 squares as open; it remains open for the rest of the skirmish and cannot be closed)


Trying to assimilate suggestions. Took away her mobile nature but left on mines with the explosive traps, overload and proximity mines. She is just lots of bombs.
Generally she will be used to put people into a Fookbox.

She will complement many figs, kind of like an uber saboteur.
_______________________________


urbanshmi2
I like it. Definitely on the right track.

_____________________________

TimmerB123
Quote:
urbanshmi2 wrote:
I like it. Definitely on the right track.



+1

She's really actually quite interesting and unique now.
__________________________
LESHIPPY
PT?

___________________
urbanshmi2
Yep, PT.

_____________________
TimmerB123
PT

______________________
swinefeld
pt added

Quote:
Quote:
9/9

Sabine Wren
Mandalorian
Cost 24

HP 70
Def 18
Atk 10
Dmg 10

Special Abilities
Unique. Ghost Crew. Double Attack

Explosive Traps [Enemy characters within 6 squares get -4 Defense and -4 to saves against abilities whose names contain Mines, Grenades or Missiles]

Mines 20 [An enemy that moves adjacent to this character takes 20 damage; save 11]

Overload [Can use 2 abilities that replace attacks instead of 1 on her turn]

Proximity Mines 40 [Replaces attacks: range 6; target enemy is mined until the end of its next turn. At the beginning of the mined character's next turn, the mined character and each character adjacent to that target take 40 damage, save 11 for 20 damage.]

Stealth [If this character has cover, she does not count as the nearest enemy for an attacker farther than 6 squares when choosing targets]

Thorium Charge [Replaces Attacks: Designate 1 door within 6 squares as open; it remains open for the rest of the skirmish and cannot be closed]


________________________________

urbanshmi2

So Tim, J, and I were talking a bit about this piece on the drive home from WNY this weekend, and it occurred to us that in Mandos she'll have access to Twin. Probably not a big deal, since at the moment she doesn't have mobile and I don't think there's an easy way to give her GMA, but we should make sure she gets at least a couple of tests in Mando squads.

________________________________

TimmerB123 L
Quote:
urbanshmi2 wrote:
So Tim, J, and I were talking a bit about this piece on the drive home from WNY this weekend, and it occurred to us that in Mandos she'll have access to Twin. Probably not a big deal, since at the moment she doesn't have mobile and I don't think there's an easy way to give her GMA, but we should make sure she gets at least a couple of tests in Mando squads.



Also with the SpecForce Technician in Rebels.

Twin aside, we've already drawn parallels between her and Mira. Now we know Mira is top tier. There was a lot of talk about including her in every squad.

Jason brought up that Grenades and Proximity mines are very similar. Perhaps we should only have proximity mines?

I think her thorium charge should go back down to satchel charge. Thorium is nuts good, and blasting around corners is a stupid loophole that people are now using. Doing it 2 times is too good.

Otherwise I think cost has to go up and/or stats have to go down.
__________________________

fingersandteeth
she lost grenades when she lost rigged detonators.

perhaps you should look at the last stat block again before comparing her to Mira.

_________________
Really???....... DRINK


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 Post subject: Re: Inside the minds of the design team - Sabine Wren
PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2015 10:26 am 
Imperial Dignitaries
Imperial Dignitaries

Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 12:17 pm
Posts: 5934
LESHIPPY
Mira is also Fringe which allows her to play with everyone thus maybe a top tier piece.
Wren is stuck in Rebels and Mandos. There might be a way to get he into NR, but I haven't looked that detailed yet.

Anyway, i think is a significant difference the way it is.
______________________________

TimmerB123
Quote:
fingersandteeth wrote:
she lost grenades when she lost rigged detonators.

perhaps you should look at the last stat block again before comparing her to Mira.



Crap - you are right.

Sorry - it was a group discussion in the car on the way home from NY. I don't remember who looked up the stats, but they were an old stat set and that is what Jason went on for the grenades comment. My bad for not double checking the latest before posting.

Grenades and parallels to Mira aside - the other questions are still valid in my mind and deserve discussion.

Are we worried about twin (therefore double twin)? Personally, I am not worried about this. Power boosts in those 2 factions are hard to come by. But Laura brought it up and it deserves consideration.

Thorium charge. Much more powerful than I ever would have thought. And it's now being abused (using it around corners). Doing it twice is crazy sauce. I really think if nothing else - we need to go to satchel charge.
______________________________

fingersandteeth
Ok, so just testing the waters here, been thinking about this chick, the comments about double throium, the potency of rigged detonators and how to really make this chick different to Mira.

Rigged detonators is pretty nuts on Zam and Mira so i figure an explosive expert should be able to shut them down/off so that's rigging defuzer. It gives 2 factions a chance at toning down Rigged Detonators which might impact Mira's plug and play ability.

Took off overload because i'd like her to keep thorium charge (because it keeps her tough and useful) and i figure rebels could do with access to TC.

I decided to do away with proximity mines because i took off overload and i think her traps should work with her own abilities so i put grenades 40 on her.

Explosive expert is added because it fits all these things.

I gave her cloaked because that works better as a Mira counter as she can't just force sense and take out her counter.

She still wants to be up close to use her grenades + traps which is her thing. Mines and cloaked helps her survive in the thick while dealing damage.

Her power output is lower but her utility and survivability has increased.

Thoughts?

Quote:
Quote:
9/9

Sabine Wren
Mandalorian
Cost 24

HP 70
Def 18
Atk 10
Dmg 10

Special Abilities
Unique. Ghost Crew. Double Attack

Cloaked [If this character has cover, it cannot be targeted by nonadjacent enemies]

Explosive Expert [+4 to this character’s save rolls against abilities whose names contain Grenades, Mines, or Missiles]

Explosive Traps [Enemy characters within 6 squares get -4 Defense and -4 to saves against abilities whose names contain Mines, Grenades or Missiles]

Grenades 40 [Replaces attacks: range 6; 40 damage to target and to each character adjacent to that target; save 11]

Mines 20 [An enemy that moves adjacent to this character takes 20 damage; save 11]

Rigging Defuzer [Allies within 6 squares (including this character) ignore Rigged Detonators]

Thorium Charge [Replaces Attacks: Designate 1 door within 6 squares as open; it remains open for the rest of the skirmish and cannot be closed]

____________________________


TimmerB123
I think I am liking this much better overall.

I was ready to stubbornly oppose overload + thorium charge. You got rid of one (though opposite of what I would choose), but it takes away the most severe abuse.

Surely needs to be playtested still.

I say PT the above stats
__________________________


urbanshmi2


Love it! PT.
_________________________________

TimmerB123
Don't know how it got dropped, but she needs Affinity: Rebels

(Btw - now that they have access, this was pointed out to me by 2 different PT Comm members. Hooray for hive mind! <not the SWM ability>)

Quote:
Quote:
9/9

Sabine Wren
Mandalorian
Cost 24

HP 70
Def 18
Atk 10
Dmg 10

Special Abilities
Unique. Ghost Crew. Double Attack

Affinity [May be in a Rebel squad]

Cloaked [If this character has cover, she cannot be targeted by nonadjacent enemies]

Explosives Expert [+4 to this character’s save rolls against abilities whose names contain Grenades, Mines, or Missiles]

Explosive Traps [Enemies within 6 squares get -4 Defense and -4 to saves against abilities whose names contain Grenades, Mines or Missiles]

Grenades 40 [Replaces attacks: range 6; 40 damage to target and to each character adjacent to that target; save 11]

Mines 20 [An enemy that moves adjacent to this character takes 20 damage; save 11]

Rigging Defuser [This character and each ally within 6 squares ignores Rigged Detonators]

Thorium Charge [Replaces attacks: Designate 1 door within 6 squares as open; it remains open for the rest of the skirmish and cannot be closed]

___________________________

fingersandteeth
pt
______________________

urbanshmi2
PT
______________________

LESHIPPY
Adding
________________________

swinefeld
I checked earlier today, and her PT entry had the Affinity, so it was only dropped here, unless someone edited it there ahead of me.

____________________________

fingersandteeth
So there are some concerns about her power. I'm not sure I quite agree with all the concerns and I am leery of costing her to a level where there are better options. I don't think she is as versatile as Mira, she also isn't fringe and so the squad options start to get more limited and direct comparisons in cost are to be avoided.

This also goes for Hera. The comparison to Morrigan has to include the issue that Morrigan is fringe.

She is also a swarm counter/strafe counter/deep strike counter so those types of build should struggle with her.

In anycase, explosive traps will currently stack with Traps, and it shouldn't so I will remove that aspect of it, added traps and then bump her a couple of points. I also reduced her attack.

Thoughts?


Quote:
Quote:
9/9

Sabine Wren
Mandalorian
Cost 26

HP 70
Def 18
Atk 8
Dmg 10

Special Abilities
Unique. Ghost Crew. Double Attack

Affinity [May be in a Rebel squad]

Cloaked [If this character has cover, she cannot be targeted by nonadjacent enemies]

Explosives Expert [+4 to this character’s save rolls against abilities whose names contain Grenades, Mines, or Missiles]

Explosive Traps [Enemies within 6 squares -4 to saves against abilities whose names contain Grenades, Mines or Missiles]

Grenades 40 [Replaces attacks: range 6; 40 damage to target and to each character adjacent to that target; save 11]

Mines 20 [An enemy that moves adjacent to this character takes 20 damage; save 11]

Rigging Defuser [This character and each ally within 6 squares ignores Rigged Detonators]

Thorium Charge [Replaces attacks: Designate 1 door within 6 squares as open; it remains open for the rest of the skirmish and cannot be closed]

Traps [Enemy characters within 6 squares get -4 Defense]

___________________________

TimmerB123
Looks fine to me
___________________________

urbanshmi2
Quote:
TimmerB123 wrote:
Looks fine to me


I agree. Looks good.

One quibble--she gets Survival Expert from Hera, right? Won't that stack with Explosives Expert? Avoid Missiles, Grenades, and Mines on a 3 or better? I don't think it's totally out of line, but--wow.

_______________________________

fingersandteeth
Well she didn't initially have it, then, after comparisons with Mira she went through a number of changes and that was suggested so I added it as I was trying to find her identity.

It is a big deal, no question. She can now run up to people and grenade them while being adjacent with a 90% chance of coming out unscathed whilst improving the odds of a successful grenade (~65%).

It wasn't something i intended her to be capable of so it might be worth dropping explosive expert to avoid this. Its thematic for her to have it, but then with what Hera brings its starting to get excessive as far as saves.

Due to her cloaked its unlikely she will be targeted for grenades too often so dropping it would
A) stymy some possible abuse
B) make her more likely to be partnered with Hera
C) keep her cost down.

There has been a wide range of suggestions around Sabine from doing nothing, to taking away some of her defensiveness, losing TC, significantly upping her cost, confining her to Rebels etc while 2 out of the 3 playtest comments were positive with minor changes.

I'm struggling to assimilate it all, currently, and thus finding it hard to decide what her specifics should be, what should stay and go.

She was always supposed to be tough and a counter to several NPE's but i think there are differing opinions on what the level of toughness should be.

I think part of the issue is that she is a dual faction piece and this brings me back to the challenge of creating Garen Malek, aiming for a decent competitive piece and in the end creating a T2 figure that helps neither faction.

I'm not opposed to her being soley Rebel where i think she could probably stand to be costed cheaper than in Mando's, or even adding a rapport for rebel builds and costing her to t1.5-2 in Mando's.

Once you get past her cloaked mines she is a pretty squishy piece which isn't a good trait for a figure that has to stand within 6 of enemies to start working her traps. Many figs and builds can off her quickly from long distances and she doesn't have the luxury of a distant mobile game like Mira if she needs to keep her distance.
_______________________________________

LESHIPPY
I think that she should just be in a rebel squad. I know this is a significant change, but hear me out. We are looking at this character as we do most characters, in a specific time frame. In this time frame she is clearly only working with the rebels. She has mando armor and mentions being in the Imperial Academy. However, she doesn't have affinty for IMP nor should she. Which makes me ask beside the armor why have affinity to Mandos?

Another point is that it has been released that she is going to have movie that has boba in it. By dropping the Mando, we allow future designers to develop a character that specific time with out worrying about tring to compare the two in the same faction. The news about the movie was release some time in Jan. well after we had the set list. I think that since she is going to be a main character in a movie is a good reason not to have her in Mandos and save it for later.

It also let's us focus on just as a rebel and not in Mandos.

After all that if she is just in Rebels and we are trying to get them to fit into 200 that she keeps TC so this group will have door control options.

__________________________

fingersandteeth
I'm not against her being Rebel only for sure. Less playtests, more focused design, smaller chance of letting something stupid through.

I originally thought she would be rebel with possible affinity Mando's, but I could also be happy with her being soley Rebels.

Its not that significant of a change, the cards haven't been started yet, so she would move a couple of places at most in the mini-setlist.

________________________________

urbanshmi2
I'm fine with having her in the Rebel faction exclusively. Makes sense for what we're trying to capture.
____________________________

fingersandteeth
So current rendition, lost explosive expert which is big. One att back on. cost point dropped, defense dropped one.

Rebel only.

Quote:
fingersandteeth wrote:
Quote:
5/9

Sabine Wren
Rebels
Cost 25

HP 70
Def 17
Atk 9
Dmg 10

Special Abilities
Unique. Ghost Crew. Double Attack

Cloaked [If this character has cover, she cannot be targeted by nonadjacent enemies]

Explosive Traps [Enemies within 6 squares -4 to saves against abilities whose names contain Grenades, Mines or Missiles]

Grenades 40 [Replaces attacks: range 6; 40 damage to target and to each character adjacent to that target; save 11]

Mines 20 [An enemy that moves adjacent to this character takes 20 damage; save 11]

Rigging Defuser [This character and each ally within 6 squares ignores Rigged Detonators]

Thorium Charge [Replaces attacks: Designate 1 door within 6 squares as open; it remains open for the rest of the skirmish and cannot be closed]

Traps [Enemy characters within 6 squares get -4 Defense]

______________________

TimmerB123
PT
_______________________

urbanshmi2
I'm good with that. PT.
______________________

_________________
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 Post subject: Re: Inside the minds of the design team - Sabine Wren
PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2015 10:27 am 
Imperial Dignitaries
Imperial Dignitaries

Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 12:17 pm
Posts: 5934
LESHIPPY
Quote:
urbanshmi2 wrote:
I'm good with that. PT.


+1
________________________________


TimmerB123
Done
________________________

urbanshmi2
Done.

________________________________

fingersandteeth
Done
_________________________
swinefeld
* QC *

Quote:
5/9

Sabine Wren
Rebels
Cost 25

HP 70
Def 17
Atk 9
Dmg 10

Special Abilities
Unique. Ghost Crew. Double Attack

Cloaked [If this character has cover, she cannot be targeted by nonadjacent enemies]

Explosive Traps [Enemies within 6 squares get -4 to saves against abilities whose names contain Grenades, Mines or Missiles]

Grenades 40 [Replaces attacks: range 6; 40 damage to target and to each character adjacent to that target; save 11]

Mines 20 [An enemy that moves adjacent to this character takes 20 damage; save 11]

Rigging Defuser [This character and each ally within 6 squares ignores Rigged Detonators]

Thorium Charge [Replaces attacks: Designate 1 door within 6 squares as open; it remains open for the rest of the skirmish and cannot be closed]

Traps [Enemy characters within 6 squares get -4 Defense]


“Forget the explosion. Look at the color.”
________________________

rest is qc on the card art work - enjoy Les

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