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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 7:04 am 
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Wedge772 wrote:
Now let's take Kyle Katarn. He's 31% of your squad at 100pts, and he also locks you out of alot great support pieces from other factions. Your squad is going to lose. But build a 1000pt team with him, and he's 3.1% of your squad. That's manageable.


Yes, it is the same argument that 100 points of CE's (Thrawn and LV don't count!) is too many in 150, however in 200+... it is not too bad.

The more useless/subpar/obsolete/whatever you want to call them figures you add to the army, the more ineffective it will become. That said, I play ineffective characters all the time, in specific games we have at the LGS (random army games). Everyone tosses in figures costing between X and Y, deal them out randomly, play what you got. Why would people toss in good 40 pointers when they can add Xizor to the mix and hope they don't pull them!


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:16 am 
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Fang wrote:
Here's a piece I can't see anyone bother playing: Twi'lek Scoundrel.

For the same cost, the beloved Aqualush Assassin gains:
+1 defense
+2 attack
Stealth
Black Sun
Opportunist

The Twi'lek Scoundrel only has Cunning Attack on the Aqualish, which is basically traded for Opportunist. Since there are no CEs specifically for Twi'leks, and more for Black Sun, the Aqualish Assassin should beat the Twi'lek every time.

However, I do like the scoundrel's sculpt a little better.


You might absolutely want to play one in an Ithorian Commander/Han Stormtrooper swarm. With Cunning and the Commander Effect, they become a +13 attack for 30 damage. That's still the same damage as the Aqualish. And sometimes it's nice to have an option at the beginning of the round for when you win initiative and some key piece is sitting there with 30 HP left (which means the AAs wouldn't be able to kill it with one hit).

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:24 am 
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I agree with you Shinja... and in fact go well out of my way to play "Crazy Squads" (note that in my stint in the GVL, I only played the same squad twice... just because I had no time to whip up a new one). I lose sometimes because I do this, but I have fun trying to play with "lesser used pieces".

This having been said, I may disagree with Nickname (man I seem to end up on the opposite side of discussions with you a lot, Sir) if I'm understanding your point. There ARE obsolete pieces... there ARE balance goofs... and while you can (and should) try to find ways to make them make sense, as pointed out in subsequent commentaries (such as comparing LV squads to Mace squads) that doesn't invalidate the idea that there are these pieces. Yes, good players can and will try to find ways to make these "lesser" pieces work... but they are still "lesser". While I do agree with Shinja that few pieces (if any) are "unplayable", I do not agree with the implication that those of us that have been pointing out balance issues are suddenly incorrect by the realization that you can always play a lesser piece and still compete.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:18 pm 
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Alright, didn't get much outcry from the initial theory, so here's an extension on it:

Theory: Every piece does something better than any other piece at it's point level or lower. With Fringe pieces, this may only be true in certain factions. For instance, for Bespin Guards, it's not true in the Imperial faction, but it is true in the Old Republic faction.

As LoboStele pointed out, a Twi'lek Scoundrel hits someone who has not yet activated better than an Aqualish Assassin.

Even the mighty (terrible) Klatooinian Enforcer is the cheapest shooter that can put out 20 damage on a living character (without any commander effects)--he's actually tied with the Arcona Smuggler, but the Klatooinian Enforcer has 10 more HP than the Smuggler. Also, the Klatooinian is the cheapest Fringe shooter with 20 HP (and ties the cheapest 20 HP shooters from several other factions).

Han Solo (28) from Rebel Storm compared to Han Solo on Tauntaun (27) has a small base and +1 Defense.

Luke Skywalker of Dagobah (28) has multiples way to attack more than one opponent, while Luke Skywalker, Hoth Pilot Unleashed (28) is stuck attacking just one opponent at a time.

(I use Rebel examples because I'm the most familiar with them, but I think this could hold up with other factions, as well).

IG-88 (37) has Double Attack so he can put out 40 damage max while Aurra Sing (37) can only put out 30 damage max.

Is there such a thing as a completely obsolete character? That's the question I'm really asking here.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 7:14 pm 
Really Cool Alien from a Cantina
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RS Han isn't obsolete?

RS IG88 should be chosen of over CS Aurra?

sounds obsolete to me.

throwing a nikto soldier in a meta squad doesn't make it worth playing.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 7:44 pm 
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Lord_Nihl wrote:
RS Han isn't obsolete?

RS IG88 should be chosen of over CS Aurra?

sounds obsolete to me.

throwing a nikto soldier in a meta squad doesn't make it worth playing.


So say you want use Princess Leia (A&E) to give one of the follower Han's an extra attack for your squad idea. You can't fit Han Scoundrel or Han Rogue in your squad, so you're looking at Han Solo on Tauntaun or Han Solo RS, because you want Accurate Shot.

If you use Han Solo on Tauntaun, he can't use Mobile Attack effectively, because he has to stay in line of sight to use Leia's extra attack. With his large base, it's easy for your opponent to get a line on him. With his lower defense, it's easier to for your opponent to connect. Is his extra 10 HP enough to save him?

I would seriously play Han Solo RS before I played Han Solo on Tauntaun in a squad where I wanted to exploit Leia's CE like that. Every single time I've tried Hantaun for that, his large based-butt ends up sticking out too far from where I'm trying to hide him and he dies quickly. It's worth the extra 1 point to me (and sacrificing +1 Attack) to get the better surviving Han RS.

Now, I'm pretty sure in every single other situation, I'd rather have Hantaun. But because there exists a situation where I'd rather have Han RS, I don't think he's obsolete. Also, if someone doesn't own Hantaun, I think they can run Han RS with Princess Leia and still have a competitive squad.

IG-88's easier to justify. He's better against the Vong, being non-Living. He's better against swarms, because of Double Attack (unless multiple figs base Aurra so she can sweep). He can move and still get +15 attack against a non-Jedi. Again, now that I own Aurra, I'll probably run her way more often than IG-88--but there are things that he does better than her, so I don't think he's completely obsolete.

And back to the OP, just because Aurra is undeniably better than IG-88 (although still not in every way), doesn't preclude IG-88 from being competitive. He can reliably put 40 damage per round on Uniques (although non-Accurate). I think that's worth his 37 points.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 8:29 pm 
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This having been said, I may disagree with Nickname (man I seem to end up on the opposite side of discussions with you a lot, Sir) if I'm understanding your point.


I think you're misunderstanding in this particular case. I think we actually agree in concept.

Quote:
There ARE obsolete pieces... there ARE balance goofs... and while you can (and should) try to find ways to make them make sense, as pointed out in subsequent commentaries (such as comparing LV squads to Mace squads) that doesn't invalidate the idea that there are these pieces. Yes, good players can and will try to find ways to make these "lesser" pieces work... but they are still "lesser".


Completely agree, except I don't refer to something as "obsolete" just because it's "lesser". I said as much in my post. You can still include the worst pieces in the game in competetive squads. The squad is no longer optimal, but as long as the squad containing it remains competetive then it doesn't meet my definition of "obsolete" or "unplayable" just because there's an even better option out there.

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While I do agree with Shinja that few pieces (if any) are "unplayable", I do not agree with the implication that those of us that have been pointing out balance issues are suddenly incorrect by the realization that you can always play a lesser piece and still compete.


It's not my intent to imply otherwise. There are miscosted pieces. There are pieces that can almost objectively be considered worse in every concievable gameplay situation and absolutely are worse in 99% of situations.

I don't think that's in any way mutually exclusive with the concept that no currently available piece in the game is so bad that its mere presence on the board moves the squad from "competetive" to "bad" regardless of the rest of the contents of the squad.

I stop short of saying that every piece can be "good" in some regard as in Shinja's latest post. There are some serious clunkers out there--they just aren't so bad as to be "unplayable" even in a competetive environment.

There are a couple cases that are even harder to justify than the examples Shinja picked.

Erm131's favorite is the Geo Drone vs the Ewok. There is only one current situation where the Drone is preferred, and that's when fighting against Antilles.

Another is Quinlan Vos vs JWM. There are only single point differences in the stats but the JWM is advantageous in every other regard by such a wide margin it's hard to make much of a case. Then he's non-unique so less vulnerable to BHs and able to use way more CEs. And he's got no Savage issue. QV is basically never the better option.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 10:18 am 
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NickName wrote:
I stop short of saying that every piece can be "good" in some regard as in Shinja's latest post. There are some serious clunkers out there--they just aren't so bad as to be "unplayable" even in a competetive environment.

There are a couple cases that are even harder to justify than the examples Shinja picked.

Erm131's favorite is the Geo Drone vs the Ewok. There is only one current situation where the Drone is preferred, and that's when fighting against Antilles.

Another is Quinlan Vos vs JWM. There are only single point differences in the stats but the JWM is advantageous in every other regard by such a wide margin it's hard to make much of a case. Then he's non-unique so less vulnerable to BHs and able to use way more CEs. And he's got no Savage issue. QV is basically never the better option.


Forget my latest post responding to Nihl...I think I got off track from the second theory. All the theory says is that any given piece does something better than any other piece at it's point level or lower.

In the case of Quinlan vs. JWM, Quinlan has 10 more HP and +1 Attack so he does 2 things better than a JWM. That's all I was saying in my theory. I'm not saying every piece can be "good".

Geo Drone vs. Ewok is a toughie. Geo Drone has a large base and is Separatist, but their aren't any CEs that specifically affect Sep followers, or depend on base size, or affect Geonosians. Like you said, it's better against Captain Antilles. I would add that you can bring it in with Nute's Separatist Reinforcements or Reserves or San's Reserves. But that's pretty flimsy reasoning.

I'm about ready to drop the second theory as it's proving difficult to defend. :)

I appreciate all the discussion this has drawn.


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