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 Post subject: Theory: Every fig can be competitive at every point level
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:16 pm 
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I hesitate to post this, because I'm afraid people will just dismiss it off-hand. But anyway, this theory of mine has been gaining momentum in my head recently, and I wanted to see what other people thought.

I think it might be possible that every single character in Star Wars Miniatures can be in a competitive squad at every point level. By competitive, I don't mean the squad could win a tournament at Gencon. I'll define competitive as being something a good player could take to a tournament and beat one or more other good players playing good squads. Again, "good" is subjective, but if I try to define that, I'll end up using another term I have to define, so I'll leave it here and you can use your own definition of "good".

Now, I'm not saying that Rebel Storm Han is always (or ever) a better choice than Han Solo on Tauntaun. But just because Han Solo on Tauntaun is a better choice, doesn't mean a squad using RS Han can't be competitive. Just because JWMs are better than the equivalent cost in CS Jedi, doesn't mean you can't make winning squads that use CS Jedi.

I'm also not saying that every squad can be competitive. A 200pt. squad consisting entirely of Klatooinian Enforcers is going to get creamed. But a Klatooinian Enforcer added in to an otherwise competitive squad isn't going to make it suddenly uncompetitive.

Characters like the Ithorian Commander, the Verpine Tech, etc. have really helped make pieces that were horrible before (Leia Captive, for instance) able to played in a competitive squad. Again, an Aqualish Assassin and 2 Ugnaughts is probably a better use of 13 points than Leia Captive, but I think one could use Leia Captive in a squad instead and still be competitive.

The "at every point level" part makes things tougher (and this is the main part I'm still trying to decide in my head). And in order for that to work, you have to assume huge-friendly maps at all point levels. But on a huge-friendly map, I think even a Reek at 100pts. could work well with the right support. The challenge is finding the support. Fitting the really big guys into 100 is hard (Revan, I'm looking in your direction), but I think it might be doable.

So what's the most worthless character that you feel can never be used competitively? B'omarr Monk? It costs 5 points more than Sly Moore. Will 5 points of filler make a competitive Sly Exar build suddenly uncompetitive? Dark Side Enforcer? Does the fact that she's not a JWM mean that it's an auto-loss to have one on the board?

Again, this is just a theory, and it can certainly be disproved more easily than it can be proved. I'm just curious what you, my board peers, think. :)


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:22 pm 
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My very first thought was to agree with you.

But then I realized that I have not come close to playing with all the different figures out there, so it would be tough for me to say so.

I do think it would be very difficult to build a competitive squad with Nute Gunray in it.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:30 pm 
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This is my basic beef with people who classify figures as "unplayable", (and to a lesser extent "obsolete").

A better option existing does not mean a lesser option can't be used anymore. It may not be the best choice, but it isn't necessarily bad, and doesn't guarantee a loss.

Sure, it may currently be better in every case to use a Stormtrooper over a Bespin Guard, but using that Bespin Guard is almost never the difference between winning and losing and the same thing can be applied to just about everything people call "unplayable".


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:50 pm 
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I wholeheartedly agree, that no figure is "unplayable" or "obsolete". Everything has its use, and in its own way can be used. And by the way, just to defy you Jedi1972 I present the Nute version of my squad that preforms very well in fact.

Dominance of the Fridge

-Telosian Tank Droid x2
-Darth Sidous
-Wat Tambor
-Nute Gunray
-BDO
-R5 Astromech
-Ugnaught Demolitionist x2

It works well against swarms and has a gaggle of reinforcements and a tad of reserves to force the opponent to be careful with MTB. Since the squad is mostly droids his CE has no effect (on the major pieces, oh well Ugnaughts). Reinforcements brings in SBDC and others, possibly a Geo Overseer (Droid Mark helps to keep him safe), Battle Droids for upping activations, or some BG Droids. Unlucky initiative brings in more goodness.

Sorry if this is a repost from my other thread but I felt it was needed (and I don't think its against the rules).

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:54 pm 
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I'm glad you defied me. This looks like a cool squad to play. I'm going to try it out.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:58 pm 
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Yup, but try it with the Geo Overseer, all that splash coming out of them tends to lay some waste on swarm squads (especially because of the ridiculously buffed +attack that the Fridges get on the Separatist side).

I'm not sure that its competetive, because I don't do much DCI around where I live, but I play a lot for fun with my brother and my good buddy.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 8:10 pm 
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Here's a piece I can't see anyone bother playing: Twi'lek Scoundrel.

For the same cost, the beloved Aqualush Assassin gains:
+1 defense
+2 attack
Stealth
Black Sun
Opportunist

The Twi'lek Scoundrel only has Cunning Attack on the Aqualish, which is basically traded for Opportunist. Since there are no CEs specifically for Twi'leks, and more for Black Sun, the Aqualish Assassin should beat the Twi'lek every time.

However, I do like the scoundrel's sculpt a little better.


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 Post subject: Re: Theory: Every fig can be competitive at every point leve
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 8:23 pm 
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shinja wrote:
Now, I'm not saying that Rebel Storm Han is always (or ever) a better choice than Han Solo on Tauntaun. But just because Han Solo on Tauntaun is a better choice, doesn't mean a squad using RS Han can't be competitive. Just because JWMs are better than the equivalent cost in CS Jedi, doesn't mean you can't make winning squads that use CS Jedi.


So you are saying that a 72 point squad could win consistently even if it included Han Solo? Or that a squad that includes CS Jedi could - consistently?

Any squad CAN win depending on how the dice rolls go. But the better options you include the less you have to depend on outright luck to achieve victory, and IMO that should be the goal all the time.

Think how much better squads like those would do if you included the better options instead.

Quote:
I'm also not saying that every squad can be competitive. A 200pt. squad consisting entirely of Klatooinian Enforcers is going to get creamed. But a Klatooinian Enforcer added in to an otherwise competitive squad isn't going to make it suddenly uncompetitive.

Characters like the Ithorian Commander, the Verpine Tech, etc. have really helped make pieces that were horrible before (Leia Captive, for instance) able to played in a competitive squad. Again, an Aqualish Assassin and 2 Ugnaughts is probably a better use of 13 points than Leia Captive, but I think one could use Leia Captive in a squad instead and still be competitive.

The "at every point level" part makes things tougher (and this is the main part I'm still trying to decide in my head). And in order for that to work, you have to assume huge-friendly maps at all point levels. But on a huge-friendly map, I think even a Reek at 100pts. could work well with the right support. The challenge is finding the support. Fitting the really big guys into 100 is hard (Revan, I'm looking in your direction), but I think it might be doable.

So what's the most worthless character that you feel can never be used competitively?


There are several that will consistently fail to squads with better-designed cohesion. For example:

Squad A
37 IG-88 (RS)
25 Bespin Guard x5
72 General Windu
08 Wicket
06 Ewok x2

Does this squad look vaguely familiar? It should. Look closer...

Squad B
37 Grand Admiral Thrawn
25 Stormtrooper x5
71 Lord Vader
08 Mas Amedda
06 Ugnaught x3

Which would you rather play? I hope you get my point. You can't just swap superior pieces for inferior options and expect to do as well as you would if you maximized the squad potential. All things being equal, squad B will beat squad A 99 times out of 100.

So no, not every piece can be included in a competitive squad at any point level and still win. I have a saying: Garbage in, garbage out, meaning that if you add junk elements to your squad, deck, warband, whatever, you aren't going to perform very well. At least, not consistently.

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 Post subject: Re: Theory: Every fig can be competitive at every point leve
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 8:58 pm 
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Boris wrote:
So no, not every piece can be included in a competitive squad at any point level and still win.

I agree. Some pieces are just junk and should not every be played. The Mando Wardroid (that is not a droid) and the Knoby White Spider come to mind.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:06 pm 
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I agree that many figs can be made a lot better by commanders, and sets such as A&E have helped make older figs better. I for one like using unique jedi over JWM's and I think that while JWM's are better the CS Jedi are also good. You have made many good points, but for the more competive games, people are going to use the best option they have. It doesn't mean figs are unplayable, just means that there are better choices.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:08 pm 
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I hope you get my point. You can't just swap superior pieces for inferior options and expect to do as well as you would if you maximized the squad potential. All things being equal, squad B will beat squad A 99 times out of 100.


You miss his point. He isn't saying use all inferior pieces in a squad like in your example. He's saying you can build a competetive squad that contains one or two inferior pieces and remain competetive. Sure it's not as good as if you use all optimal pieces, but it's still competetive.


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 Post subject: Re: Theory: Every fig can be competitive at every point leve
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:09 pm 
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Boris wrote:
shinja wrote:
Now, I'm not saying that Rebel Storm Han is always (or ever) a better choice than Han Solo on Tauntaun. But just because Han Solo on Tauntaun is a better choice, doesn't mean a squad using RS Han can't be competitive. Just because JWMs are better than the equivalent cost in CS Jedi, doesn't mean you can't make winning squads that use CS Jedi.


So you are saying that a 72 point squad could win consistently even if it included Han Solo? Or that a squad that includes CS Jedi could - consistently?

Any squad CAN win depending on how the dice rolls go. But the better options you include the less you have to depend on outright luck to achieve victory, and IMO that should be the goal all the time.

Think how much better squads like those would do if you included the better options instead.

Quote:
I'm also not saying that every squad can be competitive. A 200pt. squad consisting entirely of Klatooinian Enforcers is going to get creamed. But a Klatooinian Enforcer added in to an otherwise competitive squad isn't going to make it suddenly uncompetitive.

Characters like the Ithorian Commander, the Verpine Tech, etc. have really helped make pieces that were horrible before (Leia Captive, for instance) able to played in a competitive squad. Again, an Aqualish Assassin and 2 Ugnaughts is probably a better use of 13 points than Leia Captive, but I think one could use Leia Captive in a squad instead and still be competitive.

The "at every point level" part makes things tougher (and this is the main part I'm still trying to decide in my head). And in order for that to work, you have to assume huge-friendly maps at all point levels. But on a huge-friendly map, I think even a Reek at 100pts. could work well with the right support. The challenge is finding the support. Fitting the really big guys into 100 is hard (Revan, I'm looking in your direction), but I think it might be doable.

So what's the most worthless character that you feel can never be used competitively?


There are several that will consistently fail to squads with better-designed cohesion. For example:

Squad A
37 IG-88 (RS)
25 Bespin Guard x5
72 General Windu
08 Wicket
06 Ewok x2

Does this squad look vaguely familiar? It should. Look closer...

Squad B
37 Grand Admiral Thrawn
25 Stormtrooper x5
71 Lord Vader
08 Mas Amedda
06 Ugnaught x3

Which would you rather play? I hope you get my point. You can't just swap superior pieces for inferior options and expect to do as well as you would if you maximized the squad potential. All things being equal, squad B will beat squad A 99 times out of 100.

So no, not every piece can be included in a competitive squad at any point level and still win. I have a saying: Garbage in, garbage out, meaning that if you add junk elements to your squad, deck, warband, whatever, you aren't going to perform very well. At least, not consistently.


Actually Squad A would have a chance since Windu could absort LV's Lightsaber Assaults, Vader JH B&B, however would definitely be able to beat Squad A.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:16 pm 
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NickName wrote:
Quote:
I hope you get my point. You can't just swap superior pieces for inferior options and expect to do as well as you would if you maximized the squad potential. All things being equal, squad B will beat squad A 99 times out of 100.


You miss his point. He isn't saying use all inferior pieces in a squad like in your example. He's saying you can build a competetive squad that contains one or two inferior pieces and remain competetive. Sure it's not as good as if you use all optimal pieces, but it's still competetive.


I didn't get that from the post. My bad. :oops:

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:19 pm 
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Not surprised. Word is you're a punk. :D

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:34 pm 
Moff Disra
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NickName wrote:
Not surprised. Word is you're a punk.

Nickname is incorrect


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:42 pm 
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NickName wrote:
Not surprised. Word is you're a punk.

It's scary what two spammers can do to a server...

I think that every fig has its place, I'm sure you can find a way to squeeze in any bad fig that's under 30 points, but once you get higher than that your squad starts to suffer.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:45 pm 
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Engineer wrote:
NickName wrote:
Not surprised. Word is you're a punk.

Nickname is incorrect


Yeah, now the secret is out. I am a punk. I didn't want you guys to know. So far, I'd only told my wife... :P

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:57 pm 
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Boris wrote:
Yeah, now the secret is out. I am a punk. I didn't want you guys to know.

Boris, we all saw you at Gencon. The blue/yellow spiky hair, eyebrows full of safety pins, leather jack with 8 metal zippers, and 3 hankerchiefs (on your stone/acid washed jeans) was a dead give away. You looked like Nicholas Cage from a 1980's movie.

Sorry to be the one to point this out to you.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 10:26 pm 
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Engineer wrote:
Boris wrote:
Yeah, now the secret is out. I am a punk. I didn't want you guys to know.

Boris, we all saw you at Gencon. The blue/yellow spiky hair, eyebrows full of safety pins, leather jack with 8 metal zippers, and 3 hankerchiefs (on your stone/acid washed jeans) was a dead give away. You looked like Nicholas Cage from a 1980's movie.

Sorry to be the one to point this out to you.


They weren't safety pins. They were straight pins. And the jacket has 12 zippers not 8.

I was going for more of a Billy Idol look but Nicholas Cage is probably closer to how it turned out. :P

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:36 am 
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So the premise is that you can afford to use some bad figures in a squad and remain competitive, right?

I think it's all a matter of percentages. You can toss a Nikto Soldier into a 200pt squad, win a tournament, and then beat your chest that you won a tournament with a Nikto Soldier. I've done that at 150pts with Bib Fortuna. But ultimately, that Nikto was only 2.5% of your squad total. Not going to matter too much.

Now let's take Kyle Katarn. He's 31% of your squad at 100pts, and he also locks you out of alot great support pieces from other factions. Your squad is going to lose. But build a 1000pt team with him, and he's 3.1% of your squad. That's manageable.


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