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Mandalorians with bodyguard?
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Author:  R5Don4 [ Sun Dec 16, 2012 12:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Mandalorians with bodyguard?

His name is K-3PO, he made the Rebels the second faction to have swap to no effect whatsoever.

Author:  fingersandteeth [ Sun Dec 16, 2012 9:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Mandalorians with bodyguard?

R5Don4 wrote:
His name is K-3PO, he made the Rebels the second faction to have swap to no effect whatsoever.

yep your right, so little effect that i forgot about him.

so 4 factions with swap.

Author:  SenateCommando [ Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Mandalorians with bodyguard?

urbanjedi wrote:

thereisnotry wrote:

Ah, makes sense. I was toying around with a similar idea.

fingersandteeth wrote:
what do you think that should be?
As I said above, they've been designed as the "shooty" faction because that's what they were, well armed mercs.

I'm glad you asked.
I always think of mandalorians as being shooters but very aggro'y. They NEVER win through attrition. They charge in, swarm enemy positions and kill or die. I hate to say it but I'd envision fitting mandalorian stats somewhat similar to Senate Commandos. Solid stats for the price, high damage but no sneaky tricks, rewards for getting up close and personal (close quarters). Though commandos were there first so that ship's left the hangar.

If you follow them, Madalorians are sneaky sometimes but only when they are scouting or spying, when they fight in earnest, it's bloody, brutal and overpowering.

Now if I were going to translate this into game mechanics, Aggressive abilities would be very common in madalorians. Stuff like Charging fire, momentum, close quarters, satchel charge, bravado and similar affects would come easy to them, being either printed on the cards of their grunts or in conveniently cheap commanders.

Defensive abilities would focus on shrugging off damage rather than avoiding it. That's already done with boxcar gum.

Sneaky, or attrition based commander effects like Mobile attack, stealth, evade, override, activation control (except increasing activations) and similar abilities would be very rare in mandalorian commander effects and probably only appear on Costly unique commanders who seriously fit that effect.

The above applies also to teamwork based effects like Squad abilities, bodyguard, synergy, gregarious. Mandalorians are out for personal glory and if another mando needs help then he is weak and deserves what he gets. The Pacifist mandalorians under Dutchess Satine could break this rule but they should be made to have very little synergy with other mandos.

Grunts with sneaky effects like cloaked would never be geared towards being the power of a squad. They would generally be inexpensive and have low damage output but have abilities to support the main force such as recon, spotter, targeting or accurate shot.

Off the top of my head I would put forward these pieces based lightly off my senate commandos. Notice that while similar in some ways they don't step on the toes of the existing commandos. These are crappier at range but better up close. Though it may be more fitting to lower the cost and stats since this is intended to represent a basic mando crusader.

Random Mandalorian Crusader Commander 25pts
hp 60
def 19
atp 10
Dam 10

Twin attack
Bravado 10
Close Quarters
Rapport (Mando crusaders -1pt)

Commander Effect:
Mandalorian Crusader allies gain charging fire and Twin attack

Random Mandalorian Crusader 18 points
hp 40
def 18
atp 8
Dam 20

Bravado 20
Close quarters
Satchel Charge
Inexorable (my idea of an aggressively themed mando ability to help them fare against ranged squads. +4 def when targeted by enemies 12 or more squares away. maybe reduce to 6 squares)

Random Mandalorian Scout 8pts
hp 20
def 14
atp 6
dam 10
/wave (Replaces attacks, an enemy within line of sight loses stealth and cloaked. is there an ability like this already? *shrug*)

fingersandteeth wrote:
BTW - when people talk of them being the "weakest" faction its because tournament results show that they are the weakest.

Never gen con top 8
they've won one regional, ever.

The only faction who challenges the bottom like Mando's, is the vong.

Meh, that's just because mandos generally want to be run in groups of non-unique soldiers while the SWM meta from what I see has for the most part devolved into squads of maybe two strong GMA shooters and as many ways to hose your enemy's team as you can fit. And/Or Mace Windu. Or suicide groups like exploding vong or exploding Geonosians or these Naboo deathshots you folks were talking about.

Author:  thereisnotry [ Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Mandalorians with bodyguard?

Actually, I think one of the big reasons why both Vong and Mandos are at the bottom is because these two factions are both almost entirely centered around non-uniques while the game in general favors uniques over non-uniques. Many uniques (the good ones that is) are largely self-sufficient and only get stronger with good squad synergy. On the other hand, most non-uniques, even the good ones (ie Mando Scouts or Vong Jedi Hunters), are not self-sufficient at all and absolutely rely on good squad synergy in order to function well. There are obviously exceptions to this rule, but I'm speaking generally here. A big problem for both Mandos and Vong is that their commanders, who are absolutely essential if their non-unique grunts are going to function properly, generally cost too much. Therefore you are stuck in a dilemma: you either stack the CEs/synergy and have few points left over for attackers, or else you have a bunch of sub-optimal attackers without enough support. I think that's a big factor.

Another big factor is the lack of real movement breakers for either faction, but that's another discussion.

Author:  fingersandteeth [ Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Mandalorians with bodyguard?

thereisnotry wrote:
Another big factor is the lack of real movement breakers for either faction, but that's another discussion.

this is the real reason.

Even the OR has better movement breakers than the Mando's.

I don't think it has anything to do with whether your packing uniques or non-uniques. Accurate Echanis is still a t1 squad and the main power comes from non-uniques that are synergized up the yahoo. Lancers are non-unique and the squads are so powerful that design has been focused on lowering their impact.
Stormcommando centered squads are also very powerful, as are IG swarms.
The new sniper/spotter combo is a really tough non-unique concept and there are even more coming in Vset 5.
There is no basis to the statement that Vong and Mando's fail because they are non-unique based. The failing is that the synergy hasn't met expectations.

Author:  thereisnotry [ Wed Dec 19, 2012 11:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Mandalorians with bodyguard?

All of the powerful non-unique-centered squads that you listed are powerful because the commanders are cost-effective. My point is simply that typically, when squads are centered around non-uniques, you need to include more commanders than you would in a squad centered around uniques. Therefore, when those commanders are cost-effective the squads can work well, but when the necessary commanders are too expensive for what they do, then you've got a sub-par squad. We've had this discussion during our V-Set development, particularly around the Vong. I think the same has been true (though probably to a lesser extent) with the Mandos.

I'm not saying that non-uniques can't compete, because that's clearly not true. I'm simply saying that squad-building around them necessarily takes a different form, and the Mandos and Vong haven't yet been able to get the synergistic pieces they need to make their stuff work correctly.

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