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 Post subject: Re: Trandoshan Huntmaster: Vset Project 1
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 7:42 am 
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R5Don4 wrote:
Still very limited. If it benefited Bounty Hunter or Mercenary characters it would be more useful.

Just thinking of the overpowered nature Jonny brought up about giving Bounty Hunters Ambush, what if it also gave them Mercenary if they cost more than 50?


On the risk of turning my submission into the Powell Motors' "Homer," I refined the CE. I don't like boosting BH's significantly as they have wide-access to numerous damage boosting abilities. And, unless the CE is non-unique based, most go to support already dominant BH's. I do support boosts Mercs as they are seldom used. That being said, if Bossk should be allowed to be boosted a bit, I'm all for it.


Last edited by Markedman247 on Thu Nov 08, 2012 8:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Trandoshan Huntmaster: Vset Project 1
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 7:45 am 
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If you insist on including Net Gun, may I suggest that it at least be the 16 save one, because that might just be worth giving up your attacks for.

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 Post subject: Re: Trandoshan Huntmaster: Vset Project 1
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 9:13 am 
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Trandoshan Hunt Master
Cost 26
HP 70
Def 17
Atk 9
Dam 20

SA's
Double Claw Attack
Rend + 10
Trandoshan Reserves (If you roll exactly 11 for initiative, you can add up to 20 points of Trandoshan characters to your squad immediately before your first activation of the round)
Regeneration 10
Bully (+4 Atk and 10 damage against adjacent characters with a lower cost than this character)
Net Gun 16
Rapport (-1 Trandoshan non-Uniques)

Commander Effect
Mercenary followers gain Net Gun 16. Trandoshan allies gain Bully and Indiscriminate.

Trandoshans hunt their prey... And don't stop until they get their trophy.

Edits: CE for Mercs. Trandoshans gain Bully and Indiscriminate. Lowered cost by 2.

Net gun fits a hunter if the hunter is for safaris or hunting parties.


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 Post subject: Re: Trandoshan Huntmaster: Vset Project 1
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:16 am 
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At the risk of pushing limits, I think we should try to include something new on this character to make it interesting and fresh. I know that Vset pieces usually are way too heavy on "new gimmicks" but as this is coming from the community, we should at least put out an option.

I'm just going to throw a bunch out there, to see if there is anything anyone else finds interesting or useful:


Special Abilities

Existing ones not mentioned yet or on Trandos normally but definitely could suit this guy:

Bloodthirsty
Vicious Attack
Merciless

New ones:

Hidden Attack (+20 damage against enemies that it does not have Line of Sight to at the beginning of its turn)

or

Bloodlust (+10 Damage attacks against adjacent enemies at half Hit Points or less) [like Merciless but only for adjacent]

or

Blindside (When an allied character misses an attack against a wounded character adjacent to this character, this character may make an immediate attack against that character.)

or

Trandoshan Affinity (Trandoshan allies count as the being the same Faction as the rest of this squad.)

or

Pack Mentality (Trandoshan allies within six squares gain Ferocity (Can make an immediate attack when defeated.)

or

Pack Mentality (when a Trandoshan follower within six squares becomes Wounded it may make an immediate attack)

or

Trandoshan Charm (Trandoshan followers within six squares gain Trandoshan Intimidation (Lower cost adjacent enemies of base size Medium or smaller may not activate or continue moving, save 11.)


Commander Effect

Followers with Bounty Hunter gain Preemptive Strike (When an adjacent enemy activates this character may make an immediate attack against them.)

or

Followers with Mercenary gain Reactive Shot (When hit by an attack from a non-adjacent enemy this character may make an immediate attack.)

or

Mercenary followers gain Loyalist (once per turn, when an allied commander within six squares is targeted this character may make an immediate attack against that character.)

or

Bounty Hunter and Mercenary followers gain Desperation (Usable on this character's turn, may choose to take 10 damage at the end of this turn and have +4 Attack and +10 damage this turn.)

or

Trandoshan followers gain Sound Alarm (When this character is defeated, one ally with line of sight to the attacker may make an immediate attack.)

or

Fringe followers gain Alert (Enemies attacking this character, receive no bonuses from Cunning Attack, Opportunist, Deceptive or Advantageous Attack.)

or

Followers with Bounty Hunter gain Defensive Overdrive (When damaged by an adjacent enemy this character may take an extra 10 Damage and make an immediate attack.)

or

Mercenary followers gain Intrepid (Once per round, after all activations on both sides have been played, this character can immediately move up to its speed before round is finished. This does not count as an activation and this character must take their turn as normal during the round.)

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 Post subject: Re: Trandoshan Huntmaster: Vset Project 1
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:47 am 
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forgetting balls crazy thinking

What base idea do we want to go with?
The bounty hunter idea or a trans/merc one.

I think we have the base stats pretty much down just need to figure out what the CEs we want and if there are any new SAs


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 Post subject: Re: Trandoshan Huntmaster: Vset Project 1
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:57 am 
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Great list, R5Don4. I particularly liked Alert and Desperation. Minor changes below, plus one of my own:

Alert (Enemies attacking this character or an adjacent Fringe follower use printed Attack and Damage ratings with no bonuses.)

Desperation (Usable on this character's turn. +4 Attack, +10 Damage; this character takes 10 damage at the end of this turn)

Mercenaries gain Overwatch (If not activated, this character may make an attack of opportunity when a character that has no cover from this character moves. This character is considered activated.)


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 Post subject: Re: Trandoshan Huntmaster: Vset Project 1
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:11 pm 
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jonnyb815 wrote:
forgetting balls crazy thinking

What base idea do we want to go with?
The bounty hunter idea or a trans/merc one.

I think we have the base stats pretty much down just need to figure out what the CEs we want and if there are any new SAs


I like the Merc/Tran support version. BH's aren't hurting for support. Most people use BH's for Fringe help. Very few use Mercs. That being the CE for Mercs could be something help survivability.

CE
Allied Mercenary characters gain Shields 1 if they have not moved. Trandoshan followers gain Bully and Net Gun 16.


Last edited by Markedman247 on Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Trandoshan Huntmaster: Vset Project 1
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:31 pm 
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Dipping into the MERCS bag of tricks TJ? :D Nice.

I don't mind the tweaks, please feel free. Anything new we can add to make the game better, I'm all for.

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 Post subject: Re: Trandoshan Huntmaster: Vset Project 1
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:39 pm 
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R5Don4 wrote:
At the risk of pushing limits, I think we should try to include something new on this character to make it interesting and fresh. I know that Vset pieces usually are way too heavy on "new gimmicks" but as this is coming from the community, we should at least put out an option.


I've had this discussion with the designers. New for newness sake is not good, and is in fact terrible design. When I start seeing a lot of new stuff I have to write up, a warning sign goes off. You must have a good reason for why you need a new ability. And ideally, it will do something new, but still based on precedents.

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 Post subject: Re: Trandoshan Huntmaster: Vset Project 1
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:08 pm 
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Defense is where Merc are hurting the most so a boost in that area would be preferred, Shields sound like a good choice.

Perhaps granting them Stealth (within 6) so Prince Xizor could grant them Accurate though that may end up being a bit abusive (would create a defensive boost and have access to a rather expensive though quite large offensive boost as well).

Markedman247 wrote:
BH's aren't hurting for support.

Granting Ambush then becomes just one of those many options, as pointed out there's only a few figures it could be considered "dangerously powerful" on. The biggest problem with BH's not hurting for support is that it still leads to usage of a select few while the others are left in the box.


Last edited by Lord_Ball on Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Trandoshan Huntmaster: Vset Project 1
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:17 pm 
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Every Vset thus far has had more new Special Abilities than Rebel Storm (43) (first set starting from 0) and Universe (44) which had the most new of any WotC set. Vengeance tied for most new Force Powers (17) with Champions of the Force. Let's not pretend for one second that we should be marched out to the shooting range and executed for considering adding a new Special Ability to this piece.

In the past, it was the reusing of old or new SA's that left the biggest mark on the game. The creativity of a set though, was usually judged on how many new things it brought to the table. Now there are so many new SA's and FP's that are used only once it's a bit ridiculous. Please don't stifle our creativity for trying to come up with something interesting, we are just following the Vset designer mentality.

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 Post subject: Re: Trandoshan Huntmaster: Vset Project 1
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:45 pm 
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R5Don4 wrote:
Every Vset thus far has had more new Special Abilities than Rebel Storm (43) (first set starting from 0) and Universe (44) which had the most new of any WotC set. Vengeance tied for most new Force Powers (17) with Champions of the Force. Let's not pretend for one second that we should be marched out to the shooting range and executed for considering adding a new Special Ability to this piece.

In the past, it was the reusing of old or new SA's that left the biggest mark on the game. The creativity of a set though, was usually judged on how many new things it brought to the table. Now there are so many new SA's and FP's that are used only once it's a bit ridiculous. Please don't stifle our creativity for trying to come up with something interesting, we are just following the Vset designer mentality.


Yes, because I totally ignored the 4 pages of glossary I typed up for V4. And I totally did not ask the V4 designers to evaluate the nescessity of new abilities. I'm not against new stuff. But making a new ability "just because we can" really, really rubs me the wrong way. It is a terrible way to design a piece, community or otherwise.

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 Post subject: Re: Trandoshan Huntmaster: Vset Project 1
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:03 pm 
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Sithborg wrote:
R5Don4 wrote:
Every Vset thus far has had more new Special Abilities than Rebel Storm (43) (first set starting from 0) and Universe (44) which had the most new of any WotC set. Vengeance tied for most new Force Powers (17) with Champions of the Force. Let's not pretend for one second that we should be marched out to the shooting range and executed for considering adding a new Special Ability to this piece.

In the past, it was the reusing of old or new SA's that left the biggest mark on the game. The creativity of a set though, was usually judged on how many new things it brought to the table. Now there are so many new SA's and FP's that are used only once it's a bit ridiculous. Please don't stifle our creativity for trying to come up with something interesting, we are just following the Vset designer mentality.


Yes, because I totally ignored the 4 pages of glossary I typed up for V4. And I totally did not ask the V4 designers to evaluate the nescessity of new abilities. I'm not against new stuff. But making a new ability "just because we can" really, really rubs me the wrong way. It is a terrible way to design a piece, community or otherwise.


My favorite quote: "Just because you can, doesn't mean you should."

The Sarlac is more necessary for new abilities but a Trando HM feels less necessary. Granted, I am proposing "Bully" as a new ability but, without any insight, something similar is probably being mulled over. And, since Bravado is the opposite, it is easier to explain. I prefer the conservative approach with this piece (90% existing abilities) and leave the spiffy, new to N/U rares or Uniques. Let them pop the cork and then filter to fodder pieces via natural trickle down effect.


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 Post subject: Re: Trandoshan Huntmaster: Vset Project 1
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:48 pm 
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R5Don4 wrote:
Every Vset thus far has had more new Special Abilities than Rebel Storm (43) (first set starting from 0) and Universe (44) which had the most new of any WotC set.


Vengeance had ~30 new Special Abilities (including identifiers and stuff that barely counts), R&R had ~27 new Special Abilities. So no, you're verifiably incorrect about that.

Design the piece however you want to. If you create lots of new abilities that aren't necessary, they'll be most likely to be removed by the design team (remember, this piece will be able to be tweaked by the design team after the community finishes their final version, depending on if it really needs it or not). When designing new abilities good things to keep in mind are that if it can be more or less done with existing abilities, that's good; if it can only be used by one single character, that's bad; if it's not absolutely necessary for the character's flavor, that's bad (this is one of the reasons it will be more OK for the Sarlacc to get new abilities than the Trandoshan; the Sarlacc will probably need something new to represent it); if it's very similar to an ability that already exists but has an important difference, that's usually good (Bully is a good example of this).

If a design posts advice, it's given for good reason. If you ignore it, the card is much more likely to be changed when it gets in the final designers hands.

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 Post subject: Re: Trandoshan Huntmaster: Vset Project 1
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:51 pm 
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Oh is that why S&V only had 30 new SA's? Thanks for that. That is more on par of the average WotC set. Well that's a step in the right direction overall reusing SA's whenever possible. Nevertheless, new for new's sake is not necessarily a bad thing or the game would never get new SA's. Most of the SA's I threw out there were ways of triggering an immediate attack in response to being attacked. Many squads could benefit from something of an assassination deterrent.

Edit- in regard to Daniel's reply, I was going by the glossary on Bloo that said R&R contained 47 new SA's. DotF 45 and Vengeance 58.

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 Post subject: Re: Trandoshan Huntmaster: Vset Project 1
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:56 pm 
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R5Don4 wrote:
Edit- in regard to Daniel's reply, I was going by the glossary on Bloo that said R&R contained 47 new SA's. DotF 45 and Vengeance 58.


I'm curious how you saw that. I literally went through all of both R&R and Vengeance and counted the new abilities by hand. Is there a place on BlooMilk that shows that? It might be either counting multiple instances of things (like if Omega Squad was given to 2 characters it counts as 2 new SAs, even though it's just 1 new SA on 2 characters) or counting things like Rapport and Affinity which BlooMilk has to have programmed as different abilities, but it's ridiculous to count every single version of Rapport or Affinity as a new SA, because they aren't according to the actual official glossary.

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 Post subject: Re: Trandoshan Huntmaster: Vset Project 1
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:59 pm 
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In Glossary under Sets. There is a Column for Special Abilities and Force Powers.

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 Post subject: Re: Trandoshan Huntmaster: Vset Project 1
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 3:03 pm 
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Yeah, it must be counting new versions of stuff like Affinity, since that's how BM has to be programmed. That's silly, though, and if you gave this character Rapport -1 for Trandoshans no one would ever consider that a new ability. Although now I'm also curious as to how you got 30 as the number of new SAs in S&V, because I just counted those by hand and got 35, more than either Vengeance or R&R.

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 Post subject: Re: Trandoshan Huntmaster: Vset Project 1
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 3:08 pm 
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S&V I just counted by manually too. Wasn't going for an exact figure though. Regardless, point taken.

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 Post subject: Re: Trandoshan Huntmaster: Vset Project 1
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 3:12 pm 
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Lord_Ball wrote:
he can boost both
Camaraderie (trandoshan allies gain Bounty Hunter +2)
CE Bounty Hunters gain....



CE: Bounty hunters gain Merciless

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