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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 3:10 pm 
Intelligence Operative
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Young Sarlacc
75, HP 200, def 14, atk 10, dmg 30
SA
Emplacement
Melee Attack
Triple Attack
Melee Reach 3
Clamp
Sarlacc Pit (this character cannot be targeted by enemies further then 3 squares. Enemies that are hit by this characters attacks immediately move adjacent to this character; when an adjacent living character activates they are immediately defeated, save 6. A character with melee attack may reroll a failed save once)
Regeneration 10

This way ranged attackers have to get snagged/pulled in to be eaten while melee has an additional chance of survival against the great Sarlacc. Also regeneration fits this character pretty well, or absorb life energy? Thoughts?

Oh and we should start collecting Special Abilities that we think are obvious. So far it seems:
Emplacement
Melee Attack
Melee Reach 3 (especially when combined with Sarlacc Pit or something similar to bring engagements within 3 squares)
Clamp

Are the standard ones that make sense thus far


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 6:14 pm 
Droid Army Commander
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I don't see how this piece should have a damage output of 120 Damage in a round. Those stats are not for a Sarlacc, even for 75 Pts, that is a Rabid Rancor chained to the ground.

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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 6:43 pm 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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R5Don4 wrote:
I don't see how this piece should have a damage output of 120 Damage in a round. Those stats are not for a Sarlacc, even for 75 Pts, that is a Rabid Rancor chained to the ground.


I agree with that. This should not be a high-damage figure. Only 10 damage per attack, but plenty of attacks. Actually, it's not like a Sarlacc would quickly attack the same victim multiple times. I'd go with not granting multiple attacks at all and instead a melee version of Furious Assault. The multiple attacks should all have to attack different victims. Also, if we say that allies are legal targets (like in LS Throw 3), then you have to choose between attacking one enemy or attacking all enemies but also attacking any allies in the way. That could be a good way to make the figure dangerous to both allies and enemies.

Furious Melee: Replaces attacks; attack each adjacent character once.


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 6:55 pm 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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Here's another take on the slanted ground...

Slanted Ground: Whenever a character (including this character) within 3 squares with Melee Attack hits another character, the acting player may move the hit character one square toward this character.


And here's yet another take on Sarlacc Pit. In this version, there is no save to force a player to stay adjacent. It's just a pain to get away (+6 movement cost)... enough that most characters won't be able to move away and attack the same turn.

Sarlacc Pit: When a character adjacent to this character activates, it is defeated, save 6. Characters with Melee Attack get +4 to the save. Moving out of a square adjacent to this character costs an additional 6 movement. Allies treat this character as an enemy for the purpose of movement.

I didn't want to specify Flight in Sarlacc Pit because Force Leap should also let people jump over the pit, as well as any other flight-like abilities. The main thing is that allies should be able to walk 'over' the pit, which is something enemies can't do anyway. Acrobatic would also let people bypass the pit, which is a bit of a stretch perhaps, but not too much of one.


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 7:19 pm 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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Sithborg,

I'd like to get a better handle on what is doable and what is not regarding terrain. We want to somehow simulate a slope and the presence of a pit.

These are difficulties that I see with treating a character as terrain:

1. You can't actually fit the character on the board on top of another character.
2. If part of the character is terrain, you shouldn't be able to attack the terrain part of the character and cause damage to the character.
3. The RM wouldn't have the terrain lines (although a tile used as a proxy could).

These are difficulties that I see with allowing a character to change the surrounding terrain:

a. The RM doesn't have the terrain lines (although a tile used as a proxy could).
b. Allowing players to drop a pit wherever they want could make push abilities too powerful. (Costing the piece high enough that it can't be competitive could solve that issue, though.)

Are there other rules issues that I'm not seeing?


In particular, are there rules issues that would make the following unworkable:
* A medium-based piece that changes the surrounding terrain to difficult terrain. Issues 1-3 above don't apply. A 3x3 tile as a proxy could include the terrain lines in practice (handling Issue a), and 'overcosting' the piece would solve imbalance issues with pushers (Issue b).

* Treating a character as a pit during characters' voluntary movement. If it's only during their own movement, then pushers would not be able to push people into the pit. Treating it as a pit during movement would get us the movement rules we want without laying out all of the individual exceptions (Flight/Force Leap/unknown future abilities). The wording would need some help, but something like, "This character is treated as a pit during all characters' movement phases." (As far as I can tell, 'movement phase' is not a game term, but I don't know what to call it or if there is an game term for that.)


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 8:25 pm 
Sith Apprentice
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"Realism" will have to be somewhat sacrificed in favor of usefulness and playability within the given rules.

So I'm going 20 Damage personally.


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 7:12 am 
Dark Lord of the Sith
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I personally dont think this piece can be done as a non epic and really think we just need to go to the pirate Captain. We are trying to go big or go home and its just too much.

At this point dont feel we will get anything done for this piece because it wont feel right or people want to much. Thats why I really feel we should of just played it save and if we did a good job. There will be more to come.


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 10:46 am 
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You cannot have the piece act as a pit the way you want it to. A character cannot be pushed into another character. This is covered in the glossary. And there are far, far too many interactions based on movement and being a character, that you cannot have a character also act as terrain. Especially a terrain that has far to many contradictions with being a character.

The only type of terrain change I'm comfortable with is removing. And even then, that is only for doors.

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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 3:01 pm 
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jonnyb815 wrote:
I personally dont think this piece can be done as a non epic and really think we just need to go to the pirate Captain. We are trying to go big or go home and its just too much.

At this point dont feel we will get anything done for this piece because it wont feel right or people want to much. Thats why I really feel we should of just played it save and if we did a good job. There will be more to come.


It's probably not going to be as "useful" as desired but I wouldn't say it can't be done. A lot of designs seem to be oriented in making the piece play like a scenario. Once people step away from that and start making it just a functional piece it can be done - sure it'll be somewhat underwhelming, but it can function similar enough to be acceptable.


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 8:58 pm 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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Sithborg,

Thanks for the clarifications.

Here's another attempt...
=================
Sarlacc 42
HP: 200
Def: 14
Atk: 10
Dmg: 10

Emplacement
Melee Attack, Double Attack
Melee Reach 3
Savage
Furious Tentacles
: Replaces turn; attack each adjacent character once.
Sarlacc Pit: This character may not be targeted or attacked by characters more than 3 squares away. Moving out of a space adjacent to this character costs 5 additional movement. Characters may not move through this character unless they can move through pits. Characters who begin and end their turn adjacent to this character are defeated, save 6. Characters with Melee Attack get +4 to the save.
Sloped Ground: Characters within 3 squares that are hit by a Melee Attack are moved one square closer to this character. (Help needed with wording on this one... I don't want it to work on AoOs, and the movement shouldn't provoke AoOs. I'd like to say that in as few words as possible.)


More brainstorming. This gets the 'pit' and the 'slope' idea without changing the terrain.

The pit is represented by the movement restriction and by automatic defeat, but only if a character chooses to stay next to the Sarlacc for their whole turn (so it's easy to avoid the auto-death save just by moving away - notice the absence of Clamp in this version).

The slope is represented by characters moving toward the Sarlacc when hit by a Melee attack and the fact that it's a lot more expensive to move away from the Sarlacc when you're adjacent to it. The damage output is very limited, but it's a major movement hindrance for enemies - potentially making them sitting ducks for the rest of the squad. There might be too much text for the card, though.


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 9:26 am 
Intelligence Operative
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Ok for starters we are doing good and making progress, there are a lot of fresh and good ideas and when this piece gets made it will be legendary haha. The thing we should focus on is:
Keeping it simple, which I believe means using Special Abilities that already exist; dropping the acts as terrain/pit idea and replicating it with the same auto-death in the proposed Sarlacc Pit idea. I really like thrashing tentacles though. And for those not so sure about the Sarlacc fighting, check out the mouth in the special edition of Star Wars as well as the force unleashed boss fight.
So lets keep it simple! Clamp should say, we can drop the damage down to make up for it.


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 1:55 pm 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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If we can't represent the pit/slope with mechanics that are simple enough, then we should just say we have an above-ground Sarlacc (perhaps even one that moves). We could still have an instant death save that represent being eaten.


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 4:13 pm 
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IMO, it seems like we're trying way to hard. Personally, I'd like to see a cheaper piece, like mid to high 20,s. I can tell you now that I will never include it in a squad if its expensive. I don't like all this talk about melee gets another save, or +5 or somthing movement when adjacent. It all seems forced. Also while I understand the want for instant death and I'm not opposed to it, I don't necessarily think it needs to be instant death. It could be like one of the many corruption like abilities we have. (when an adjacent character activates he takes 20 (30) damage and cannot move this turn.
With that, you can probably make it save 11.
Simple, less words, easier to understand, and nothing that will cause rules issues.

Here are some stats just of the top of my head without much thought. Just something to think about.
Sarlac. Cost 29
Hp 100
Def 16
Atk 10
Damage 10

Melee, melee reach 3, clamp, emplacement,
Thrashing tentacles- replaces turn, this character can atk all adjacent enemys 1 time.
Sarlac pit- This character can not be attacked by enemys further than 3 away. A character hit by this character may me moved to any legal space adjacent to this character. When an adjacent character activates they take 30 damage and can not move this turn -save 11- negates

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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 5:23 pm 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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sthlrd2, I really like most of where this is going. Though there's nothing in your version that really says 'pit' except not being able to be attacked from more than 3 away. If we aren't going to reflect the idea of a pit in the SAs, I think we might as well get rid of the pit idea completely. At least it will make more sense thematically to have the Sarlacc inside a starship then.

I prefer the name Furious Tentacles so that it easily reminds people that it's like Furious Assault (attacking everyone). I also prefer it to be characters instead of enemies so that it's a choice between attacking one (or 2 or 3 if we grant double or triple attack) enemy or attacking all enemies (but also all allies).

Sarlac. Cost 29
Hp 100
Def 16
Atk 10
Damage 10

Melee, melee reach 3, clamp, emplacement,
Furious tentacles- replaces turn, this character can atk all adjacent characters 1 time.
Sarlacc - A character hit by this character may me moved to any legal space adjacent to this character. When an adjacent character activates they take 30 damage and can not move this turn -save 11- negates


If we drop the idea of being down in the pit, I do think it would need something else to provide defense against long-range shooters or else it would be unplayable.


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 5:50 pm 
Droid Army Commander
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How about old fashioned Stealth?

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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 6:00 pm 
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Here's my full stats for the Sarlacc

Sarlacc
cost: 32
HP: 100
Def: 20
Att: 9
Dam: 20

SA:
Melee Attack; Triple Attack; Melee Reach 4
Emplacement (Cannot move or be moved. Set up anywhere on your half of the battle map.)
Indiscriminate (This character ignores abilities and commander effects that prevent enemy characters from being targeted or attacked)
Callous (This character may target allies with it's attacks, special abilities, and force powers.)
Sarlacc (Not subject to commander effects. This character does not block the movement of enemies, does not provide cover and always has cover against non adjacent attackers. Whenever a Living character is defeated by this character remove 10 Damage. You may not have more than one character with Sarlacc in your squad.)
Entangling Attack (when hit by this characters attack, Save 11. On a failure move target 1 square closer to this character; this movement does not provoke Attacks of Opportunity, and the target cannot move or make extra attacks for the rest of the round)
Engulf (characters that move into spaces occupied by this character and adjacent enemies attacked by this character are defeated, save 6 negates.)

Edit: Added Living restriction to those who allow removing 10 Damage.


Last edited by Lord_Ball on Wed Nov 07, 2012 6:39 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 6:26 pm 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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R5Don4 wrote:
How about old fashioned Stealth?


I guess that could work. A few points against it:

* It doesn't seem to make sense thematically. But it makes just as much sense as Evade on Palpatine on Throne.
* With so many ways to cancel Stealth, it's not necessarily that much protection.
* Once you're within 6, you can shoot it without getting close enough to be hit by the Sarlacc.

I guess it would at least be close enough that the Sarlacc's allies would be able to engage.

Would DR10 make sense? Then lightsabers could bypass it - advantage to melee that way.


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 8:15 pm 
Droid Army Commander
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Lightsabers have to be adjacent to work, which should have its own drawbacks.

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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 8:24 pm 
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R5Don4 wrote:
Lightsabers have to be adjacent to work, which should have its own drawbacks.


Lightsaber Throw and Telekinetic Attack.

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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 8:55 pm 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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Sarlacc Cost 29
Hp 100
Def 16
Atk 10
Damage 10

Melee Attack
Melee Reach 3
Double Attack
Emplacement
Savage
Indiscriminate
Stealth
Furious Tentacles- replaces turn, this character attacks all adjacent characters once.
Sarlacc - A character hit by this character may be placed in any legal space adjacent to this character. When an adjacent character activates they take 30 damage and can not move this turn, save 11.


Changes from my previous version: -Clamp, +Double, +Stealth, +Savage, +Indiscriminate

In this version, Clamp isn't really needed because when a character is hit by an attack, the Sarlacc SA prevents movement (save 11) anyway.

I added Double Attack because I think deciding between Furious and a regular attack should be a real decision. With only a single attack, Furious would probably be a no-brainer most of the time. Maybe it should get Triple Attack instead.

I added Stealth because it needs something to prevent it from getting shot to death before it does anything. I'm not sure Stealth is the answer, but I don't have a better one right now.

Savage and Indiscriminate have been on several versions that people have posted, and I think both make sense.

I changed the Sarlacc SA from moving the hit character to placing the character to avoid any movement problems (like moving the character through enemies to or stuff like that).

sthlrd2, this was built off of what you posted, so I'm curious what you think of it.


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