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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 12:07 am 
Intelligence Operative
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R5Don4 wrote:
You know the thought of a Sarlacc actually attacking is funny. In RotJ it didn't strike anyone, it grabbed Lando and tried to drag him into its maw. Most people were knocked in. I think it should have an ability that's a cross between Snare Rifle and Mines, and another one like Demolition Charge that eats characters effected by the first ability. Sounds messy but conceptually it is true to the source material.


Quite a different story with the force unleashed one, but maybe that's Sarlacc unleashed.

Anyways here is a sample one with a lot of different SAs, nothing rule breaking, and it shouldn't have all of these, but some at least:

Young Sarlacc
75, HP 200, def 14, atk 10, dmg 30
SA
Emplacement
Melee Attack
Triple Attack
Melee Reach 3
Clamp
Sarlacc Pit (this character cannot be targeted by enemies further then 3 squares. Enemies that are hit by this characters attacks move adjacent to this character; when an adjacent character activates they are immediately defeated, save 6. Characters may not move through this character unless they have flight)
Absorb life energy
Regeneration 20
Tentacle Thrash (replaces turn, 10 damage to all characters within 6 squares)
Bite (replaces attacks, make one immediate attack against an adjacent enemy at +50 damage)


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 12:17 am 
Death Star Designers
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You do understand that anything with an immediate defeat option is going to need a LOT more restrictions. A 25% of instant defeat is not going to cut it.

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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 5:58 am 
Dark Lord of the Sith
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Base

Young Sarlacc
41 HP 160, def 14, atk 8 dmg 30
SA
Emplacement
Melee Attack
Triple attack
Melee Reach 3
Grab

Some type of cover bonus stealth or something.


Last edited by jonnyb815 on Fri Nov 02, 2012 6:34 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 6:10 am 
Dark Lord of the Sith
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Sithborg wrote:
You do understand that anything with an immediate defeat option is going to need a LOT more restrictions. A 25% of instant defeat is not going to cut it.


Why betrayal is save 11
Pits save 11
D20 5%

Why not

My idea is that they have a shot of entering the pit but they have to be attacked to die. They can enter by being grabbed or moving into it. They have a shot of moving out each turn. Or being eaten alive.


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 6:36 am 
Dark Lord of the Sith
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R5Don4 wrote:
You know the thought of a Sarlacc actually attacking is funny. In RotJ it didn't strike anyone, it grabbed Lando and tried to drag him into its maw. Most people were knocked in. I think it should have an ability that's a cross between Snare Rifle and Mines, and another one like Demolition Charge that eats characters effected by the first ability. Sounds messy but conceptually it is true to the source material.

I agree


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 7:16 am 
Imperial Dignitaries
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GeneralGrievous wrote:

Young Sarlacc
75, HP 200, def 14, atk 10, dmg 30
SA
Emplacement
Melee Attack
Triple Attack
Melee Reach 3
Clamp
Sarlacc Pit (this character cannot be targeted by enemies further then 3 squares. Enemies that are hit by this characters attacks move adjacent to this character; when an adjacent character activates they are immediately defeated, save 6. Characters may not move through this character unless they have flight)
Absorb life energy
Regeneration 20
Tentacle Thrash (replaces turn, 10 damage to all characters within 6 squares)
Bite (replaces attacks, make one immediate attack against an adjacent enemy at +50 damage)


Just a bit of guidance. This is probably too much stuff to fit on a non epic card. That is one thing you have to keep in mind when designing.

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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 7:39 am 
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LESHIPPY wrote:
GeneralGrievous wrote:

Young Sarlacc
75, HP 200, def 14, atk 10, dmg 30
SA
Emplacement
Melee Attack
Triple Attack
Melee Reach 3
Clamp
Sarlacc Pit (this character cannot be targeted by enemies further then 3 squares. Enemies that are hit by this characters attacks move adjacent to this character; when an adjacent character activates they are immediately defeated, save 6. Characters may not move through this character unless they have flight)
Absorb life energy
Regeneration 20
Tentacle Thrash (replaces turn, 10 damage to all characters within 6 squares)
Bite (replaces attacks, make one immediate attack against an adjacent enemy at +50 damage)


Just a bit of guidance. This is probably too much stuff to fit on a non epic card. That is one thing you have to keep in mind when designing.


We can keep it simple and still stay true to the source material

taking it down a notch


Young Sarlacc
Cost 50, HP 200, def 14, atk 5, dmg 10
SA
Emplacement
Melee Attack
Triple Attack
Melee Reach 2
Clamp
Sarlacc Pit (this character cannot be targeted by enemies further then 3 squares. Enemies that are hit by this characters attacks move adjacent to this character; when an adjacent character activates they are immediately defeated, save 6. Characters may not move through this character unless they have flight)

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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 7:53 am 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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Immediate death should be rare - I'm thinking save 2. But it should also be hard to get away from the Sarlacc, so that you need a save 16 or else you're stuck and have to try the save again next turn. Something along those lines.


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 8:41 am 
Third Jedi from the Left
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I like you'res R5Don4. This is my take on it:


Fringe Sarlac Pit 50
Hit Points: 200
Defense: 15
Attack: 10
Damage: 20
Base: Huge

Emplacement (Cannot move or be moved. Set up anywhere on your half of the battle map.)

Savage (This character must end his move next to an enemy if he can and does not benefit from commander effects)

Melee Attack (Can attack only adjacent enemies)

Triple Attack (On his turn, this character can make 2 extra attacks instead of moving)

Clamp (An enemy hit by this character's attack takes +10 Damage and cannot move this round; save 11 negates)

Sarlacc Pit (This character cannot be targeted by characters further than 3 squares away. Characters may not move through this character unless they have flight.)

Melee Reach 3 (When attacking, this character treats enemies up to 3 squares away as adjacent)

Absorb Life Energy (When a living enemy is defeated by this character, remove 10 damage and this character gets +1 Attack and +1 Defense. These bonuses are cumulative.)


It doesn't do everything we'd like it to... but unfortunately, no mini can. Sithborg seems to be against the instant-death save, and i think this sort of build is far more likely to make it through the scrubbing process in the end. For me, the biggest things I think a sarlacc should do are: 1. Grab people with tentacles , 2. Eat them. I think Absorb life and Clamp are vital for the flavor of this piece.

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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 9:34 am 
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Stomp, Demolition Charge, Disintegration, Force Pushing/Repulsing into Pits, all cause instant death, it is not new to the game, all of them have a save, except the Big D, which only occurs on a crit (5%) of the time. I'm not a fan of Absorb Life Energy, that is very much a convoluted Vset SA that Rob never would have created. I don't think it fits the piece. The Sarlacc did not get more powerful during the battle, the more Jabba Goons it ate. I don't see how Save 6 for defeat could be a problem. Rebel Demolitionist had Demolition Charge in its first draft and it was taken off because the piece was priced too low and it was believed it would be problematic having an auto kill ability on a piece that cheap, even though Gotal Fringer from RotS had Disintegration and the chances of getting Demolition Charge off are slimmer than getting Disintegration off with a Gotal Fringer.

We can't make this piece only targetable if a character is risking death by attacking it, that is abusable and not going to make a good gaming experience.

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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:12 am 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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The Sarlacc digested characters extremely slowly - I don't think Absorb Life Energy is essential.

Sarlacc
HP 200
Def 14
Atk 10
Dmg 10

Melee Attack, Melee Reach 3, Emplacement, Savage
Sarlacc Pit: This character may not be targeted or attacked by enemies more than 3 squares away. If a character begins its turn adjacent to this character, it is defeated, save 2. Allies treat this character as an enemy for the purpose of movement. Movement out of a square adjacent to this character is increased by 2.
Triple Attack
Furious Melee: Replaces turn; attack each adjacent character once.
Clamp


Sithborg didn't say no to instant-death saves, just that it needs a lot more balance. I agree that 25% is too much, but moving it to save 2 (5%) would help a lot in that regard, I think.

I'd like to see some proposals for younger, mobile Sarlacc. The more I think about it, the less I like the Sarlacc Pit idea. Or, to be more specific, the less I like what we are bound to end up with based on the restrictions we have.


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:35 am 
Third Jedi from the Left
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FlyingArrow wrote:
I'd like to see some proposals for younger, mobile Sarlacc. The more I think about it, the less I like the Sarlacc Pit idea. Or, to be more specific, the less I like what we are bound to end up with based on the restrictions we have.


I don't think the restrictions are terrible. Personally, i like the pit idea, and if a pit-like-death is not a problem, but just one that needs to be handled carefully, i'd say lets see what we can come up with. I can't speak for the community, but i assumed when we said sarlacc, we meant a sarlacc pit.

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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:46 am 
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good point about the slow digestion.

If we are going to make up something with a save 2 kill ability, I'd just as soon give it Disintegration.

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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 11:49 am 
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R5Don4 wrote:
good point about the slow digestion.

If we are going to make up something with a save 2 kill ability, I'd just as soon give it Disintegration.


Here's the approach I'm taking on it.
Engulf (characters that roll a 1, 2, or 3 on a save against this character are immediately defeated and remove 10 damage from this character.)

Depending on ruling from Sithborg if 3 is still to high 1 or 2 would suffice (slightly better chance than disintegration but with reroll CEs/FPs it's probably only just as powerful at best - at least at 2 anyway).

Damage removal is also optional but it's a small benefit anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 12:05 pm 
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He doesn't have a problem with a save 6 it is how unfair it is that you can't attack the Sarlacc unless you are risking defeat of the attacking unit that he will never allow.

I think that whatever restriction we put on attacking the Sarlacc it should only be for Attacks. It can still be targeted by special abilities (Grenades, Missiles, Flamethrower, etc.) or Force Powers ( Grip, Push, Lightning, Corruption, etc.). That is where the balance comes in. It can't be an Uber powerful piece that can't be defeated without sacrificing off units to do so- that is Epic territory, which is where we are going to run into trouble.

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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 12:25 pm 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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Melee + Emplacement is pretty rare territory, too, though. Only The Ganner is like that. I think making his attack range and his vulnerability range the same is fine. It may mean that melee attackers aren't so useful against him, but I think that's okay. Or we could give melee attackers a bonus for escaping since they'd have to move adjacent to attack.


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 12:57 pm 
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R5Don4 wrote:
He doesn't have a problem with a save 6 it is how unfair it is that you can't attack the Sarlacc unless you are risking defeat of the attacking unit that he will never allow.

I think that whatever restriction we put on attacking the Sarlacc it should only be for Attacks. It can still be targeted by special abilities (Grenades, Missiles, Flamethrower, etc.) or Force Powers ( Grip, Push, Lightning, Corruption, etc.). That is where the balance comes in. It can't be an Uber powerful piece that can't be defeated without sacrificing off units to do so- that is Epic territory, which is where we are going to run into trouble.


My version isn't uber powerful so i'll go to a save 6.

Engulf (characters that move into spaces occupied by this character and adjacent enemies attacked by this character, save 6. On a failure that character is immediately defeated and remove 10 Damage from this character.)


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 1:09 pm 
Third Jedi from the Left
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R5Don4 wrote:

Engulf (characters that move into spaces occupied by this character and adjacent enemies attacked by this character, save 6. On a failure that character is immediately defeated and remove 10 Damage from this character.)


How about

Devour Characters that moves adjacent to this character, and adjacent enemies who take damage from it are defeated, and 10 damage is removed from this character; save 6 negates.

I think you should be able to fly over it safely enough. I also think characters with parry and block should be able to avoid those tentacles.

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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 1:29 pm 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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Lord_Ball wrote:
My version isn't uber powerful so i'll go to a save 6.

Engulf (characters that move into spaces occupied by this character and adjacent enemies attacked by this character, save 6. On a failure that character is immediately defeated and remove 10 Damage from this character.)


Is this what you intend? I think there's some ambiguity with your wording.

Engulf (Characters that move into spaces occupied by this character and adjacent enemies attacked by this character are immediately defeated, and remove 10 Damage from this character. Save 6 negates.)

I agree with adamb0nd regarding characters with Flight.


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 1:44 pm 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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Thinking about non-melee and melee facing the Sarlacc...

Non-melee: Non-melee and long-range SAs shouldn't be able to attack a Melee Emplacement from far away. So we let them shoot/target from within 3, but then they can also be attacked at that range with MR3. However, they do not have to be adjacent.

Melee: Being adjacent to the Sarlacc should be a Very Bad Thing (tm). However, Melee has to get adjacent to attack. To make up for that, they should be able to have some advantage to make it a Less Very Bad Thing (tm).


So what about a bonus on a save for sudden-death and/or being stuck?

Gripping Tentacles: Characters who begin their turn adjacent to this character may not move, save 16; the character is defeated if the save is 5 or less. Characters with Melee Attack gain +4 to the save.

Thematically, characters with Melee Attack would generally have weapons that could more easily bat away/slice the gripping tentacles. Granted, even a blind person might conceivably be able to shoot a tentacle, but how often would that happen?


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