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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 2:58 pm 
Death Star Designers
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FlyingArrow wrote:
Uncontrollable: This character will make attacks of opportunity against allies.


It won't work for a couple of reasons. AoOs are optional, and I don't want to make them mandatory in order for this SA to work.

[quote[Surrounding Slope: Adjacent squares are considered Difficult Terrain. This character may not be adjacent to a wall or door.[/quote]

Not a big fan of treating squares as terrain without the actual map lines. It can be treated similar, but not actually change the terrain type. And it really shouldn't have the restriction.

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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 3:14 pm 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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Sithborg wrote:
FlyingArrow wrote:
Uncontrollable: This character will make attacks of opportunity against allies.


It won't work for a couple of reasons. AoOs are optional, and I don't want to make them mandatory in order for this SA to work.



The AoO thing was off the top of my head - as someone mentioned this should be dangerous to allies as well as enemies. If that sounds like something like, we could iron out details later, but we could also just drop it - that's fine too.

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Quote:
Surrounding Slope: Adjacent squares are considered Difficult Terrain. This character may not be adjacent to a wall or door.


Not a big fan of treating squares as terrain without the actual map lines. It can be treated similar, but not actually change the terrain type. And it really shouldn't have the restriction.


On the placement, the restriction about walls/doors was for a couple reasons. First, so that you could still just use a 3x3 tile (with the center square counting as the character). Second, it didn't make sense to me for the terrain type to shift back and forth just because a door was opened or closed.

A more wordy version of Surrounding Slop could define surrounding squares to act like difficult terrain without actually being difficult terrain: don't provide cover and cost double to move into.

When you say 'not a big fan' does that mean there is a rules problem, or is that a design preference?



On a related note, I agree with the previous post that says we should leave RM open at this time until we have a design, since the base size is related to the design. Is that an option?


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 3:19 pm 
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Yes.

In the past, the RM was usually one of the last (or later) things to get decided upon in the process. People were talking about it which is why I posted my opinion/2 cents.

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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 6:18 pm 
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I thought it was mentioned that we would need to choose one ASAP. If we don't have to choose one until later, great.

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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 9:59 pm 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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Looks like Sarlacc has the most votes.


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 8:54 am 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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Now that we have a name, discussion of stats can begin in earnest.

The discussion about timing/voting/process is here:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=15879

Based on that, we will have 10 days for open discussion of SAs, stats, CEs, etc. On the November 10th, we will start a new thread where full stat card proposals can be posted. After a couple days to post them, voting will begin. Details about voting are not yet decided... see the thread above to discuss the voting process.

After the votes are resolved, we will have a Working Draft. We will have the last half of the month to test and modify (possibly radically modify) the Working Draft.


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 9:05 am 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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One thing that I think is important (and thematic) for Sarlacc is the idea that it's in a pit, so it can't be targeted by shooters from far away. It forces even shooters to get within reach of the Sarlacc before they can attack it. I'd lean toward Melee Reach 3 and immunity from attack by enemies more than 3 away. I could also see increasing both of those numbers to 6. If the Sarlacc can simply be shot up from far away, then as a Melee Attack Emplacement it's not going to useful at all.

Melee Reach 3
Sarlacc Pit: This character may not be targeted or attacked by characters more than 3 squares away. Allies may not move through this character. When adjacent characters activate, they must make a pit save. Moving out of a square adjacent to this character costs two additional movement.


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 9:44 am 
Third Jedi from the Left
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FlyingArrow wrote:
One thing that I think is important (and thematic) for Sarlacc is the idea that it's in a pit, so it can't be targeted by shooters from far away. It forces even shooters to get within reach of the Sarlacc before they can attack it. I'd lean toward Melee Reach 3 and immunity from attack by enemies more than 3 away. I could also see increasing both of those numbers to 6. If the Sarlacc can simply be shot up from far away, then as a Melee Attack Emplacement it's not going to useful at all.

Melee Reach 3
Sarlacc Pit: This character may not be targeted or attacked by characters more than 3 squares away. Allies may not move through this character. When adjacent characters activate, they must make a pit save. Moving out of a square adjacent to this character costs two additional movement.


Interesting mechanic. I actually like that. It prevents the pit from counting as terrain, which would cause some major mechanical headaches, but allows it to function as though it were. I would change the wording to state "Allies without flight may not move through this character".

The only other option that even comes close to this is cloaked or invisibility, but i neither really fits. I think i would prefer what you've come up with here.

I would love if this piece could have CLAMP. We only have seen one piece with it, and I think its completely justifiable for this piece (think Lando).

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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 9:52 am 
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FlyingArrow wrote:
Sarlacc Pit: This character may not be targeted or attacked by characters more than 3 squares away. Allies may not move through this character. When adjacent characters activate, they must make a pit save. Moving out of a square adjacent to this character costs two additional movement.


That's not how the saves with pits works. And you seriously can't have a figure that can't be attacked from far away that has a VERY good chance of defeating adjacent enemies just for being adjacent.

I just don't see how you can make it act like a pit that figures can fall into that is anywhere balanced. It may apply to an Epic, but I don't see how I can make it work in the normal skirmish game.

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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:08 am 
Third Jedi from the Left
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Sithborg wrote:
FlyingArrow wrote:
Sarlacc Pit: This character may not be targeted or attacked by characters more than 3 squares away. Allies may not move through this character. When adjacent characters activate, they must make a pit save. Moving out of a square adjacent to this character costs two additional movement.


That's not how the saves with pits works. And you seriously can't have a figure that can't be attacked from far away that has a VERY good chance of defeating adjacent enemies just for being adjacent.

I just don't see how you can make it act like a pit that figures can fall into that is anywhere balanced. It may apply to an Epic, but I don't see how I can make it work in the normal skirmish game.

Valid point. Do you feel like the rest of the description is ok, outside of the instant death/forced adjacency combo?

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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:19 am 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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It's not forced adjacency (except for melee of course) - just forced to be within striking distance, but point taken.

The main point there is that being in the pit should prevent long-range shots.


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:55 am 
Third Jedi from the Left
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FlyingArrow wrote:
It's not forced adjacency (except for melee of course) - just forced to be within striking distance, but point taken.

The main point there is that being in the pit should prevent long-range shots.


Well, you are forced to move adjacent to defeat it.

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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 11:19 am 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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adamb0nd wrote:
FlyingArrow wrote:
It's not forced adjacency (except for melee of course) - just forced to be within striking distance, but point taken.

The main point there is that being in the pit should prevent long-range shots.


Well, you are forced to move adjacent to defeat it.


No - just within 3. Then you could shoot it. But you'd also be within range of Melee Reach 3 at that point.

Early on someone (R5Don4 I think) said they imagined the Sarlacc being good versus melee but would be easy to shoot up. I looked at it kind of the opposite way. Since it's in a pit, you shouldn't be able to shoot it unless you're close. And melee attackers would be better equipped to beat off the tentacles.

My thoughts right now are...

* Medium base that affects surrounding squares somehow
* Safe from distant shooters
* Dangerous to allies, but more dangerous to enemies
* Melee, but with Melee Reach 3 or higher


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:38 pm 
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FlyingArrow wrote:
My thoughts right now are...

* Medium base that affects surrounding squares somehow
* Safe from distant shooters
* Dangerous to allies, but more dangerous to enemies
* Melee, but with Melee Reach 3 or higher


My design for the sarlacc involves:
*Huge
*Melee multi attacker with Reach 4
*Emplacement
*Indiscriminate (to me this is a vital ability for the beast especially if it has Emplacement)
* 2 new SAs
;)


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 2:11 pm 
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If you do the 3 squares thing, should the Grenades ability ignore this? (Been watching Band of Brothers a lot recently...)

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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 2:14 pm 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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kezzamachine wrote:
If you do the 3 squares thing, should the Grenades ability ignore this? (Been watching Band of Brothers a lot recently...)


Oh - good point. They wouldn't require LOS.


===


I would like to see this be an Emplacement Sarlacc with a pit, where the tile is used and characters can be on the tile... conceptually sliding into the pit before they are finally defeated. Unfortunately, I'm not sure it can work.

Sithborg, you mentioned problems with treating characters as terrain, but did not go into detail. Earlier, I listed two problems I see:
* If the RM is a huge, then you can't physically place a character on another character. So it can't function very well as terrain that way.
* If part of the character is supposed to be terrain, you shouldn't be able to attack the terrain and hurt the character.

My proposed solution was to make the Sarlacc actually a medium base character that affects the surrounding terrain. I said to make it difficult terrain so that in practice we could actually use a 3x3 tile (which would cover up the affected terrain on the board). You said you didn't like the idea of changing terrain without lines on the board, but I didn't know if that was a design preference or a rules issue. Also, in practice the lines would be there because the tile would be used by most people (I think) instead of a medium-sized RM.

At any rate, if we don't have any pit-type terrain associated with the Sarlacc, I would probably prefer to just go with the idea of a younger Sarlacc that can move around. Leave the pit for an epic.


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:42 pm 
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Lord_Ball wrote:
My design for the sarlacc involves:
*Huge
*Melee multi attacker with Reach 4
*Emplacement
*Indiscriminate (to me this is a vital ability for the beast especially if it has Emplacement)
* 2 4 new SAs
;)

Looks like I'll need 4 new SAs to have it operate correctly now :(

1 ability (when originally designed was called Ruthless, but has since been changed due to Ruthless being used)
Callous (This character may target allies with it's attacks, special abilities, and force powers.)


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 6:17 pm 
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You know the thought of a Sarlacc actually attacking is funny. In RotJ it didn't strike anyone, it grabbed Lando and tried to drag him into its maw. Most people were knocked in. I think it should have an ability that's a cross between Snare Rifle and Mines, and another one like Demolition Charge that eats characters effected by the first ability. Sounds messy but conceptually it is true to the source material.

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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 6:50 pm 
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Sithborg wrote:
I strongly encourage you to not push the limits with any new SA's that you make up. The designers, for the most part, have learned the limits of what they can push in terms of rules, even if a lot of them are not rules experts.

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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 7:25 pm 
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Sithborg wrote:
Sithborg wrote:
I strongly encourage you to not push the limits with any new SA's that you make up. The designers, for the most part, have learned the limits of what they can push in terms of rules, even if a lot of them are not rules experts.

Yeah that's something we'll have to learn as well which is why I would like to see the stat submission thread started so that any SAs that need to be reworked/dropped can be addressed before the voting begins...

There's really only one issue that I would maybe consider "questionable" and can be removed if necessary.


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