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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 11:16 am 
Sith Apprentice
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sthlrd2 wrote:
Sarlac Cost 29
100
16
8
10

Special Abilities - Emplacement, Clamp, Indiscriminate, Stealth, Advantagous cover, Melee reach 3,
(New ability) to be named later - when an adjacent character activates, that character takes 20 damage and can not move this round, save 11 negates.



I kinda like this approach only I'd add in something similar to my sarlacc ability so that it's not subject to CEs and doesn't provide cover at least, and probably a multi-attack ability.


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 6:27 pm 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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UrbanShmi wrote:
Tentacles: Characters affected by this character's Melee Reach ability are also considered adjacent during their own turns.


This sounds like something that would cause some unintended problems. The Sarlacc gets AoOs from 3 away now. A character can't shoot at anyone if they are within 3 of the Sarlacc. The Sarlacc (3 away) is adjacent while a character 2 away is not. Those don't seem to be problems - just new interactions that we haven't seen before. I imagine there could be more that are bigger issues that I'm not thinking of.


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 6:31 pm 
Black Sun Thug
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R5Don4 wrote:
Savage? Melee Attack?


Yes, probably both. I'm a touch ambivalent about Savage. I like the idea of what it represents for the piece, but I get thrown off a little bit because I perceive Savage as being more about movement than CEs, and this piece isn't going to move. That's probably just my own issue with the ability, though. I DO think that the piece needs an ability that represents sort of a wild, uncontrollable nature, and Savage is what we have to do that with in-game.

The piece would of course have Melee Attack--I left it off for brevity's sake, only because I figured it was self-evident with Melee Reach 3.


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 6:38 pm 
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FlyingArrow wrote:
UrbanShmi wrote:
Tentacles: Characters affected by this character's Melee Reach ability are also considered adjacent during their own turns.


This sounds like something that would cause some unintended problems. The Sarlacc gets AoOs from 3 away now. A character can't shoot at anyone if they are within 3 of the Sarlacc. The Sarlacc (3 away) is adjacent while a character 2 away is not. Those don't seem to be problems - just new interactions that we haven't seen before. I imagine there could be more that are bigger issues that I'm not thinking of.


Good points. The wording probably needs some tweaking--what I was trying to get at is the extended range for the AoOs (that seems appropriate to the idea of the tentacles), as well as allowing it to have cloaked and still be shot/swung at from three away. I hadn't considered the impact on targeting rules for non-melee pieces, but that's something that would certainly need to be clarified. It might make sense in a way--if you're face to face with a Sarlaac, are you really going to be shooting at anything else? However, the design team has made it pretty clear that we shouldn't mess too much with established mechanics, and it's possible that forcing a shooter to target the Sarlaac from three away is over the line.


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 7:20 pm 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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The new Caedus has a movement breaker that seems to be eons better than any other involuntary movement breaker we have seen so far. You can affect tons of enemies and allies at the same time from all the way across the board, with no regard for targeting rules (if you target your own character), and there is no directional limit (whereas most of the other involuntary movement abilities are toward or away from a specific square).

If there is abuse available for a Sarlacc, he's it. That makes me think that Stealth/Advantageous Cover should be enough for the Sarlacc. I know I was one of the earliest people advocating for no attacks outside 3 squares, but I've evolved on that one. I do think he should have a boatload of HP, though. Perhaps even more HP but lower defense so that all the scrubs can chip away at him. (Would this be the first character with a higher attack than defense?)

Sarlacc 28

HP 200
Def 14
Atk 15
Dmg 0

Melee Attack, Melee Reach 3, Emplacement, Savage, Stealth, Advantageous Cover, Clamp
Sarlacc: Each time characters without Flight move into a square within 3 squares of this character, their movement ends and are they are placed adjacent to this character, save 6.
A character that begins its turn adjacent to this character takes 30 Damage, save 11.

I combined a movement breaker SA and damaging SA into one new one and called in Sarlacc. That's 8 abilities on the character, but only 1 new one, though it could possibly be split into two if we think either might be re-used.

In many cases, this guy will be sitting in Gambit, and in some maps with open gambit, his movement breaker and MR3 will cover all of gambit.


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 8:41 pm 
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I personally don't like Savage as being the way to limit Commander Effects - due to the Savage CEs. These things weren't really able to be tamed just fed.


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 9:30 pm 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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Lord_Ball wrote:
I personally don't like Savage as being the way to limit Commander Effects - due to the Savage CEs. These things weren't really able to be tamed just fed.



I don't have a preference either way.

Anyone have a strong opinion in favor of Savage? If not, might as well add 'not subject to CEs' to Sarlacc and remove Savage.


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 10:33 pm 
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FlyingArrow wrote:
The new Caedus has a movement breaker that seems to be eons better than any other involuntary movement breaker we have seen so far. You can affect tons of enemies and allies at the same time from all the way across the board, with no regard for targeting rules (if you target your own character), and there is no directional limit (whereas most of the other involuntary movement abilities are toward or away from a specific square).

If there is abuse available for a Sarlacc, he's it. That makes me think that Stealth/Advantageous Cover should be enough for the Sarlacc. I know I was one of the earliest people advocating for no attacks outside 3 squares, but I've evolved on that one. I do think he should have a boatload of HP, though. Perhaps even more HP but lower defense so that all the scrubs can chip away at him. (Would this be the first character with a higher attack than defense?)

Sarlacc 28

HP 200
Def 14
Atk 15
Dmg 0

Melee Attack, Melee Reach 3, Emplacement, Savage, Stealth, Advantageous Cover, Clamp
Sarlacc: Each time characters without Flight move into a square within 3 squares of this character, their movement ends and are they are placed adjacent to this character, save 6.
A character that begins its turn adjacent to this character takes 30 Damage, save 11.

I combined a movement breaker SA and damaging SA into one new one and called in Sarlacc. That's 8 abilities on the character, but only 1 new one, though it could possibly be split into two if we think either might be re-used.

In many cases, this guy will be sitting in Gambit, and in some maps with open gambit, his movement breaker and MR3 will cover all of gambit.


Your stats here are very similar to my last posted stat line. With the same thinking with stealth and Advantagous cover being enough because of the fact that it's not great on it's own but teamed up with the right pieces (like Caedus) and this guy could be deadly.

The issue I have with Savage is because of emplacement. Savage has its own limitations with its negative movement clause and this guy obviously gets around that. But after more thinking, I'm under the impression that we can just leave him a follower. Assuming we use a stat line similar to what we posted.
What is going to break him the most? What kind of squads? Caedus? Force push/pull? If you have it in a squad with Caedus then your not going to have Celeste, so savage isnt a problem. Leave savage off and put Caedus in your squad, what other ce are you going to add that would break it? Bandon? I'm not worried about him breaking it. So then go a different faction and try and break him, and chances are your not going to have the movement abilities that will make the Sarlacc most effective. Even with Caedus, I'm sure there are better options than the Sarlacc so I'm not to concerned with him remaining a follower. Maybe playtests will show otherwise but I don't see anything to cause alarm.

If anyone has time, Playtest with either mine or flying arrows last stat line and try and break it as much as possible. My theory is that whatever you can do to break it, won't make it most effective, so it will be a moot point anyways.

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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:41 am 
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Sarlacc: Each time characters without Flight move into a square within 3 squares of this character, their movement ends and are they are placed adjacent to this character, save 6.
A character that begins its turn adjacent to this character takes 30 Damage, save 11.

I think Sarclacc Pit or Recessed Ground would be a better term for this ability; the creature is a Sarlacc and it lives in a hole. Having its name as a specific ability seems clumsy. Just a thought.

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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:45 am 
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R5Don4 wrote:
What I intended was that for each square entered to have to make a save. Recreating the act of running along the pit wall, a save would be required for every step. No running by it at that close range without the danger of getting close. Most of the time though if a character is coming that close, adjacent is just where they want to be because they are coming to attack it so if they fail the save it puts them exactly where they want to be.


+1 to that idea although...

Sarlacc Pit/Recessed Ground: Each time characters without Flight move into a square within 3 squares of this character, their movement ends and are they are placed adjacent to this character, save 6. A character that begins its turn adjacent to this character takes 30 Damage, save 11.

...seems a tidier option.

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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 6:28 am 
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FlyingArrow wrote:
Lord_Ball wrote:
I personally don't like Savage as being the way to limit Commander Effects - due to the Savage CEs. These things weren't really able to be tamed just fed.



I don't have a preference either way.

Anyone have a strong opinion in favor of Savage? If not, might as well add 'not subject to CEs' to Sarlacc and remove Savage.

Another problem with going the Savage route is Empathy

The other problem I see with most of the stats blocks is you're going for a character in a hole yet it's still providing cover - just feels wierd.

Sarlacc (Not subject to Commander Effects. Does not block Line of Sight and does not provide cover. You may only include one character with Sarlacc in you squad.)

These things are supposed to be rare so taking the war coordinator method, made it unique without being unique. I would also reccomend the always has cover against non adjacent, but that's just a preference.


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 7:11 am 
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Lord_Ball wrote:

Sarlacc (Not subject to Commander Effects. Does not block Line of Sight and does not provide cover. You may only include one character with Sarlacc in you squad.)

These things are supposed to be rare so taking the war coordinator method, made it unique without being unique. I would also reccomend the always has cover against non adjacent, but that's just a preference.


I like this a lot!

I know I'm probably in the minority, but I really don't like the mechanic of having to make a save every time you move into a square within 3. For one thing, as has been pointed out before, most characters are going to WANT to end up adjacent anyway, so there's no penalty to it. That makes it just something there for "flavor" but, imo, without significant in-game purpose. Not that there's anything wrong with creating abilities that represent the character as we see it (that's kind of the point), but I think we do need to be careful not to go too far down the road of flavor for flavor's sake.

The other concern I have is the "annoyed" factor. Having to make and resolve a save every time you want to move is going to get very irritating very fast.

All that said, if the majority are in favor of that type of mechanic, then of course that's what we should go forward with.

EDIT: Just wanted to add, I get wanting to simulate running along the edge of the pit, trying to avoid being pulled in, etc. I think I would just prefer an attack mechanism rather than a save mechanism to recreate that, which is why I made the suggestion of Tentacles.


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:23 am 
Black Sun Thug
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How about this:

Tentacles: Enemy characters within three squares are considered adjacent for purposes of attacks of opportunity. An enemy hit by this character's attack (of opportunity?) is immediately placed one square away from this character, save 6. This character can make more than one attack of opportunity per turn.

This is sort of a compromise position, in that you still have the potential to be moved right next to the Sarlacc, but at least it has to hit you first.


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:40 am 
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Are we assuming this is a medium, large, or huge piece? My vote still goes for huge.

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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 9:38 am 
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adamb0nd wrote:
Are we assuming this is a medium, large, or huge piece? My vote still goes for huge.


Would really depend on the final stats. My stats are for a Huge, but there's far from a consensus on anything regarding this figure.


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 9:57 am 
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Just a little something I made =)
Sarlaac
Image
Image
Image


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:13 am 
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I don't really understand why nearly all of the presented versions have damage presented as 0. I know that in film he wasn't in best shape, but that doesn't mean that he (it) is so weak. Go play TFU 1.

What's the point of using Sarlacc if he (mostly) would only strike 1 character via special ability??
IMO Sarlacc should have high HP, mid-def mid att and dam at least at 20. Otherwise, I don't see myself using it at all. He won't ever be a game changer but let's create a DECENT version.
Savage SA is a must, come on :P Via this SA he gets boosted by Celeste and Malakii.


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:31 am 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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komix wrote:
I don't really understand why nearly all of the presented versions have damage presented as 0. I know that in film he wasn't in best shape, but that doesn't mean that he (it) is so weak. Go play TFU 1.

What's the point of using Sarlacc if he (mostly) would only strike 1 character via special ability??
IMO Sarlacc should have high HP, mid-def mid att and dam at least at 20. Otherwise, I don't see myself using it at all. He won't ever be a game changer but let's create a DECENT version.
Savage SA is a must, come on :P Via this SA he gets boosted by Celeste and Malakii.


The 0 (or at most 10) is because the Sarlacc didn't inflict damages on attacks. It grabbed and pulled and if you fell in you were dead. If you got caught and got away, you were fine. More importantly, though, is that people are shooting for 20s and 30s for a cost, not 50s and 60s. Hence the lower damage output. Being a huge movement hindrance is valuable.


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:38 am 
Black Sun Thug
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It can probably be one or the other. Either the base damage is low (probably 10), and it can have Savage to get boosted by Celeste and Malakili, or else the base damage is higher, and it's just not subject to CEs at all. With Clamp he would already be at 20 damage most of the time (assuming the target fails the save), and then Celeste would put him at 30, and Malakili would make it unavoidable. Depending on the total number of attacks, I could see 30 being okay. 40 or more gets a little crazy. The piece should be playable, but not ridiculous, imo.

EDIT: And, yeah, pretty much what Flying Arrow said.


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 11:32 am 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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Points of disagreement:

Damage output level: High Damage VS Low Damage w/Movement Hindrance
Move adjacent when attacked VS Move adjacent when moving
Savage VS Specific restriction that it's not subject to CEs
Provides Cover VS Does Not
Stealth/Advantageous Cover VS Cannot be attacked outside 3 squares


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