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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 8:58 am 
Third Jedi from the Left
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I like the wording on that sunken ability.

Don, How are we handling the final stats? Is there going to be a vote on this?

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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 10:17 am 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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adamb0nd wrote:
I like the wording on that sunken ability.

Don, How are we handling the final stats? Is there going to be a vote on this?


Please see this discussion. Short answer... no decision has been made yet:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=15879&p=160873#p160873


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 3:04 pm 
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A playtest report, or even just a few complete squad ideas might help us get an idea of what we like about a particular version.

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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 9:03 pm 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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komix wrote:
Sunken: Characters without Flight that move into a square within 2 squares are automatically placed adjacent to this character, save 11. This character cannot be attacked by enemies more than 3 squares away.


Updated wording for Sunken:

Sunken: Characters without Flight that move into a square within 2 squares must end their movement and are placed adjacent to this character, save 11. This character cannot be attacked by enemies more than 3 squares away.


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 9:23 pm 
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FlyingArrow wrote:
komix wrote:
Sunken: Characters without Flight that move into a square within 2 squares are automatically placed adjacent to this character, save 11. This character cannot be attacked by enemies more than 3 squares away.


Updated wording for Sunken:

Sunken: Characters without Flight that move into a square within 2 squares must end their movement and are placed adjacent to this character, save 11. This character cannot be attacked by enemies more than 3 squares away.



Is this clearer?:

Sunken: This character cannot be attacked by enemies more than 3 squares away. Characters without Flight that move within 2 squares of this character end their movement and are placed adjacent to this character, save 11.

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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 10:10 pm 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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R5Don4 wrote:
FlyingArrow wrote:
komix wrote:
Sunken: Characters without Flight that move into a square within 2 squares are automatically placed adjacent to this character, save 11. This character cannot be attacked by enemies more than 3 squares away.


Updated wording for Sunken:

Sunken: Characters without Flight that move into a square within 2 squares must end their movement and are placed adjacent to this character, save 11. This character cannot be attacked by enemies more than 3 squares away.



Is this clearer?:

Sunken: This character cannot be attacked by enemies more than 3 squares away. Characters without Flight that move within 2 squares of this character end their movement and are placed adjacent to this character, save 11.


Removing the word 'must' is good, as is adding "of this character". But I think the attack restriction is clearer if it is listed after the save so that it's clear that there is no save for it. If the attack restriction comes first, some people may interpret that to mean that they can avoid the restriction by rolling a successful save 11.

Another ambiguity - is this something that you have to save for on every square as you move around near the Sarlacc, or is it just once per turn? I don't know what was intended, and I don't know what the best answer is. I tend to think it should only be once per turn. Here are clearer versions for either interpretation:

Sunken: Once per turn, characters without Flight that move within 2 squares of this character end their movement and are placed adjacent to this character, save 11. This character cannot be attacked by enemies more than 3 squares away.

Sunken: Each time characters without Flight move into a square within 2 squares of this character, their movement ends and are they are placed adjacent to this character, save 11. This character cannot be attacked by enemies more than 3 squares away.


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 6:59 am 
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What I intended was that for each square entered to have to make a save. Recreating the act of running along the pit wall, a save would be required for every step. No running by it at that close range without the danger of getting close. Most of the time though if a character is coming that close, adjacent is just where they want to be because they are coming to attack it so if they fail the save it puts them exactly where they want to be.

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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 12:30 pm 
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R5Don4 wrote:
Most of the time though if a character is coming that close, adjacent is just where they want to be because they are coming to attack it so if they fail the save it puts them exactly where they want to be.


Which is the exact reason I'm not too keen on the idea. They either fail their save and be where they want to go or they make the save and move there anyway. It's pointless to make a new ability that is going to make you roll a pointless save. And that save will be pointless most of the time. It will rarely hurt an opponents turn and thus even more pointless. Just my 2 cents.

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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 1:37 pm 
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Without it everyone will just walk around it like any other character. With the ability it simulates the pit/hole aspect of the character. I suppose you could just give it Jedi Reflexes combined with the MR3 would work as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 2:20 pm 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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sthlrd2 wrote:
R5Don4 wrote:
Most of the time though if a character is coming that close, adjacent is just where they want to be because they are coming to attack it so if they fail the save it puts them exactly where they want to be.


Which is the exact reason I'm not too keen on the idea. They either fail their save and be where they want to go or they make the save and move there anyway. It's pointless to make a new ability that is going to make you roll a pointless save. And that save will be pointless most of the time. It will rarely hurt an opponents turn and thus even more pointless. Just my 2 cents.


If he's in gambit, it could be pretty hard to ignore him. He only leaves open 4 gambit squares that he can't reach if gambit doesn't have walls and he's occupying 8 squares.


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 6:33 pm 
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Then I along with everyone else will walk up to wthn 3 and shoot away, and you can do nothing in return. He will be a complete waste of points and will not see much, if any play at all, if he doesn't have away of bringing you in himself.

I'd much rather make my opponent think about how to avoid this creature, rather than make it to my opponent either has to be an idiot or just make a huge mistake. Anyone and everyone can avoid this way with no thought whatsoever.

I strongly believe it must be the Sarlac that brings you in, and the save when an adjacent character activates. We are making stats for the creature and not the ground around him. With my method the ground is signified but still the creatures abilities that effect the gameplay, this method seems more based around the ground and less about the actual creature.

If this character hits figure, place that figure in any legal adjacent square. When an adjacent figure activates, it take x damage and can not move this turn. Save 11. This method will make my opponent think much more, and I encourage thinking and strategic play. Making my opponent make a save to place the figure where he was going to move anyway is use useless and will not encourage my opponent to think.

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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 6:52 pm 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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FlyingArrow wrote:
Cost 32
HP 150
DF 14
AT 8
DM 0

Melee Attack
Emplacement
Savage
Clamp
Melee Reach 3
Sunken: Characters without Flight that move into a square within 2 squares are automatically placed adjacent to this character, Save 11. This character cannot be attacked by enemies more than 3 squares away.
Tentacle: A character that begins its turn adjacent to this character takes 30 Damage, Save 11.


sthlrd2,

Quoting myself here because this version has MR3 and Sunken. You still have the idea of a wall that is difficult to scale, but with MR3 there aren't any really 'safe spots'. You might not get dragged in, but you can be attacked from 3 away.

On the other hand, Clamp is 50/50 and there's no base damage. Here's another thought - what if we gave the Sarlacc really high attack (like 15 or 16), and then said "not subject to commander effects" (dropping Savage). That way, you have a much higher chance to hit and Clamp - nearly 50/50 in most cases. But no chance it will turn into a big attacker.

Another thought for Sunken:

Sunken - Characters without Flight that move into a square within 4 squares are automatically placed adjacent to this character, Save 6. This character cannot be attacked by enemies more than 3 squares away.

With the bigger range and the easier save, characters are far more likely to tread closer to the Sarlacc. First, they'll need to since it dominates such a large amount the landscape. Second, the save is easier, so they're less likely to fear failing the save. I don't know if I like this idea - just tossing it out there for discussion.


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 10:48 pm 
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FlyingArrow wrote:
FlyingArrow wrote:
Cost 32
HP 150
DF 14
AT 8
DM 0

Melee Attack
Emplacement
Savage
Clamp
Melee Reach 3
Sunken: Characters without Flight that move into a square within 2 squares are automatically placed adjacent to this character, Save 11. This character cannot be attacked by enemies more than 3 squares away.
Tentacle: A character that begins its turn adjacent to this character takes 30 Damage, Save 11.


sthlrd2,

Quoting myself here because this version has MR3 and Sunken. You still have the idea of a wall that is difficult to scale, but with MR3 there aren't any really 'safe spots'. You might not get dragged in, but you can be attacked from 3 away.

On the other hand, Clamp is 50/50 and there's no base damage. Here's another thought - what if we gave the Sarlacc really high attack (like 15 or 16), and then said "not subject to commander effects" (dropping Savage). That way, you have a much higher chance to hit and Clamp - nearly 50/50 in most cases. But no chance it will turn into a big attacker.

Another thought for Sunken:

Sunken - Characters without Flight that move into a square within 4 squares are automatically placed adjacent to this character, Save 6. This character cannot be attacked by enemies more than 3 squares away.

With the bigger range and the easier save, characters are far more likely to tread closer to the Sarlacc. First, they'll need to since it dominates such a large amount the landscape. Second, the save is easier, so they're less likely to fear failing the save. I don't know if I like this idea - just tossing it out there for discussion.


First off, I do think this is a little better. Honestly, I think I just don't like the sunken idea and for a couple reasons. First, I think it's consentrating to much on the ground and not the actual creature. I think the ground in gameplay should only be to hide the figure from attacks. There are stairs and different terrain on the maps but still all flat on one level and this seems as if we're trying to make another level. Second, the fact the opponent has to move into a square, and it feels (at least to me) to much like covert opps training. I dont enjoy abilities like that and it takes the fun out of games. (here's my fig and you either ignore him or roll a save just for walking into a square). I don't like the concept behind it. IMO my fig on my turn should use an ability to effect you, not you get effected just for walking near me. Really all were doing is going back and forth on certain ideas which mean nothing until the voting begins. And then the voting starts and baseline set of stats are chosen and then we discuss these same issues over again. Bottom line is one of us is going to be unhappy with the final outcome. I dislike the sunken idea for all the reasons listed above, and I feel so strongly, that if does end up on it then I will be disappointed and will be unhappy with the community designed piece that I probably wont play it. I'm not sure if you feel as strongly towards your beliefs as mine but if so the same will be true of the opposite.
I mean if we didn't care then we wouldn't be discussing this here. I just don't want to see one of the most involved project members be unhappy or I feel as if they won't give a project like this again. And the more and more I think about this, this is a really hard project to cooporate and come to an agreement between the community rather than 3-4 other guys. This could be a disaster in the making. Which is why I'm trying to stay sane and still stay passionate about the project.

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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 10:51 am 
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Honestly the Sarlacc should not be much of a threat on it's own.

To me, it's a tactical obstacle piece, as was the Sarlacc in ROTJ. By itself easily avoidable or dealt with, however, when accompanied by others routing and directing prey into it's grasp it becomes dangerous. Placement is key to it's survival.

That why the Stats I came up with for it certainly aren't the strongest (probably far from it), but create a semi-useable semi-accurate representation of the creature.

Here's my full stats for the Sarlacc

Sarlacc
Cost: 32
HP: 170
Def: 19
Att: 9
Dam: 20

SA:
Melee Attack; Triple Attack; Melee Reach 4
Emplacement (Cannot move or be moved. Set up anywhere on your half of the battle map.)
Indiscriminate (This character ignores abilities and commander effects that prevent enemy characters from being targeted or attacked)
Callous (This character may target allies with it's attacks, special abilities, and force powers.)
Sarlacc (Not subject to commander effects. Enemies may move through spaces this charcter occupies. This character does not provide cover and always has cover against nonadjacent attackers. Whenever this character defeats a living character remove 10 Damage. You may not have more than one character with Sarlacc in your squad.)
Entangling Attack 1 (When hit by this characters attack, Save 11. On a failure Huge or smaller targets move 1 square closer to this character; this movement does not provoke Attacks of Opportunity, and the target cannot move or make extra attacks for the rest of the round.)
Engulf (characters that move into spaces occupied by this character and adjacent enemies attacked by this character are defeated, save 6 negates.)


The big question is - is representation or functionality more important in this piece?


Here's my Glossary definitions for the new abilities to clarify intent:
Callous: Characters with this ability may target allied characters as well as enemy characters with it's attacks, Special Abilities, and Force Powers. An allied character is treated as an enemy character for the purpose of targeting rules, and any effect that mentions enemy characters applies to the ally as though they were an enemy. Allies defeated in this way grant the opponent victory points as normal.

Sarlacc: This character cannot be bolstered or hindered by commander effects. Enemy Characters may move through spaces occupied by a character with this ability. Characters cannot recieve a cover bonus from this character and this character does not block line of sight, also this character benefits from cover whenever it is attacked by a non-adjacent attacker. This type of character is rare to encounter so you may not include more than one character with this ability when squad-building. Ignore this ability's squad-building restriction in "Out of the Box" games.

Entangling Attack X: If the target of this characters attack is Huge or smaller and the attack of this character hits, the target of that attack is moved X spaces closer to this character: it's final position must be closer to the acting character than it's starting position. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity. A character moved in this way cannot enter a space occupied by another character, whether enemy or ally, and is affected by terrain (if only moving the character 1 space ignore terrain that increases the cost of movement). If the target would be moved into a wall or another character, it slides along the impassable squares as far as possible. The acting character's controller decides which way the character is moved. For the remainder of the round a character hit by this attack may not move normally (they may still be moved by Special Abilities or Force Powers of other characters) or use abilities that grant extra attacks.

Engulf: When a character first moves into a space currently occupied by this character or if an adjacent character is hit by this characters attack rolla a save of 6. On a failed save that character is immediately defeated. If you are scoring points the opponent of the defeated characters controller scores points as if they had defeated that character.


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 10:36 pm 
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That's too many new special abilities to include on one new character. I'm positive that will not fly with the designers (who have the final say). I honestly believe we have to restrict ourselves to no more than 2 new special abilities. But I am thinking that stealth and advantageous cover may be the way to go now. This is quick thinking now so something might be a little off but as long as the idea of what I'm getting at is clear.

Sarlac Cost 29
100
16
8
10

Special Abilities - Emplacement, Clamp, Indiscriminate, Stealth, Advantagous cover, Melee reach 3,
(New ability) to be named later - when an adjacent character activates, that character takes 20 damage and can not move this round, save 11 negates.

Not really to great on his own, but synergises well with lots of different squads to set up a deadly Sarlac. Force push and pull squads, the new Caedus sith lord, anything to force movement from your opponent and set them up near the now deadly sarlacc. Stealth and Advantagous cover to give them survivability against shooters and can signify a pit without having to create a new ability (always a plus). Clamp to stop people that he atks and setting up your allies to get them closer and the 1 new ability to damage and stop people from moving out of the trap. If you can set this up, the Sarlacc can be deadly.

I like the simplicity of the abilities teamed up with the complexity of the piece. IMO the Sarlacc is simple yet complex and deadly. Either clamp or the stuck feature in the new ability might have to go, I fear both might be to much. What do you guys think of this way? A Sarlacc on his own, you can avoid and destroy but teamed up with people that can force you there (just like jabba in Rotj) and that Sarlacc becomes very deadly.

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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 12:34 am 
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So I haven't been involved in this discussion so far, but I did read the thread, and I wanted to add my SA suggestion.

Basically, I am totally in agreement with Emplacement, Clamp, and Melee Reach 3, but I also like the idea of a new ability:

Tentacles: Characters affected by this character's Melee Reach ability are also considered adjacent during their own turns.

Basically, this would give a sense of the sheer reach of this character, and it would also essentially give melee characters melee reach 3 against him (essentially slicing at the tentacles). It would also let him have cloaked (which I think might be the closest we can get to actually putting him in a pit), since characters could still shoot at him from 3 away.

If we go this way, we would probably have to stick to a stat line similar to Jake's last suggestion (10 damage), because we obviously don't want to force people into a situation where they have to risk sudden death simply to attack.

Sarlaac Cost 32
100
17
8
10

Special Abilities - Emplacement, Clamp, Indiscriminate, Cloaked, Melee reach 3, Tentacles, Double Attack, Double Claw Attack


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 10:04 am 
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UrbanShmi wrote:
So I haven't been involved in this discussion so far, but I did read the thread, and I wanted to add my SA suggestion.

Basically, I am totally in agreement with Emplacement, Clamp, and Melee Reach 3, but I also like the idea of a new ability:

Tentacles: Characters affected by this character's Melee Reach ability are also considered adjacent during their own turns.

Basically, this would give a sense of the sheer reach of this character, and it would also essentially give melee characters melee reach 3 against him (essentially slicing at the tentacles). It would also let him have cloaked (which I think might be the closest we can get to actually putting him in a pit), since characters could still shoot at him from 3 away.

If we go this way, we would probably have to stick to a stat line similar to Jake's last suggestion (10 damage), because we obviously don't want to force people into a situation where they have to risk sudden death simply to attack.

Sarlaac Cost 32
100
17
8
10

Special Abilities - Emplacement, Clamp, Indiscriminate, Cloaked, Melee reach 3, Tentacles, Double Attack, Double Claw Attack


This isn't that bad, I could get behind something like this. I think this way is more self reliant. Meaning it will work on its own without the help of a squad. I can see it but not sure what everyone else will think.
Another issue is double claw attack is useless on this character.
Double Claw Atk - on his turn, this character can make one extra atk instead of moving; both atks must be against adjacent enemies.
With him being melee and having double, this is just a waste of space as it does nothing for him. Did you possibly mean Rend +(10)(20)? That's what I figured you meant but wanted to verify.

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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 10:28 am 
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Savage? Melee Attack?

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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 10:31 am 
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Yeah, she meant Rend. Oops.

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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 10:53 am 
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sthlrd2 wrote:
That's too many new special abilities to include on one new character.


Only 1 is specific to the Sarlacc. The others can be reused on a variety of other characters so I don't think it's as bad as it looks.

For instance:
Callous could have been a part of the Sarlacc ability, but as a separate ability I can see it used on a new Shimrra, Vader, or even Vaders Apprentice.

Engulf could have been a part of either Entangling Attack or Sarlacc, but as a separate ability it would fit on say Jabba's Rancor.

Entangling attack I setup as a potentially expandable ability so it could be used on beasts or characters that use whip type weapons.


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