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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 11:54 pm 
Intelligence Operative
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Alright as a melee emplacement I still feel the pit is the way to go to not be attacked but alternatively if going a different route then I say cloaked would be better. There are way way to many counters to stealth and on an emplacement yet would not work very well. I am fine with tw not instant death and taking away the save part to if that is the popular opinion. Though calling it a young Sarlacc pit would be better maybe? I do like the Sarlacc Pit Special Ability as it is or with minor tweaking. This piece is going to be interesting on completion.


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 5:48 am 
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Cloaked means that you need to be adjacent to attack. You need to be able to attack it non adjacent.

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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 6:24 am 
Sith Apprentice
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FlyingArrow wrote:
Furious Tentacles- replaces turn, this character attacks all adjacent characters once.


I would rename this to something like "Sweeping Attack" (and perhaps even make it just replace attacks) this change would put it in line with lightsaber sweep, so that it could potentially be used on other figures down the line.


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 8:47 am 
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Again your trying too hard adding way too many things outside of jake.

I like jakes idea but would go 30 damage save 16 add in double or triple.


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:34 am 
Sith Apprentice
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jonnyb815 wrote:
Again your trying too hard adding way too many things outside of jake.

I like jakes idea but would go 30 damage save 16 add in double or triple.

Provided anyones submission will all fit on a card and have at least slightly larger print than Mara Jade Skywalker, Ability Addict... er Jedi Master (27 lines of text not counting the "Force Powers" and Commander Effect" lines). I don't see a problem with adding as much as each submission deems necessary to get the appropriate feel.


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:52 am 
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FlyingArrow wrote:
Sarlacc Cost 29
Hp 100
Def 16
Atk 10
Damage 10

Melee Attack
Melee Reach 3
Double Attack
Emplacement
Savage
Indiscriminate
Stealth
Furious Tentacles- replaces turn, this character attacks all adjacent characters once.
Sarlacc - A character hit by this character may be placed in any legal space adjacent to this character. When an adjacent character activates they take 30 damage and can not move this turn, save 11.


Changes from my previous version: -Clamp, +Double, +Stealth, +Savage, +Indiscriminate

In this version, Clamp isn't really needed because when a character is hit by an attack, the Sarlacc SA prevents movement (save 11) anyway.

I added Double Attack because I think deciding between Furious and a regular attack should be a real decision. With only a single attack, Furious would probably be a no-brainer most of the time. Maybe it should get Triple Attack instead.

I added Stealth because it needs something to prevent it from getting shot to death before it does anything. I'm not sure Stealth is the answer, but I don't have a better one right now.

Savage and Indiscriminate have been on several versions that people have posted, and I think both make sense.

I changed the Sarlacc SA from moving the hit character to placing the character to avoid any movement problems (like moving the character through enemies to or stuff like that).

sthlrd2, this was built off of what you posted, so I'm curious what you think of it.


I actually like that. I'm not sure on stealth but don't know a better way yet. I disagree with savage. With emplacement, it doesn't have to deal with the negative aspect but can just get boosted by Celeste and rancor keeper and what not. I love indiscriminate on him.

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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:59 am 
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Feel really
All I see is power creep forgetting that the piece is a support piece which puts it in the 5-8 power rankings.

That being said. I say we work on jakes idea since it has a good base line.


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 10:04 am 
One of The Ones
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It's only power creep if it's undercosted, and cost is one of the last things we need to worry about.

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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 12:17 pm 
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Well, I actually think cost is important.
I don't think we can just throw a bunch of stats on and cost it later. We need to have some idea of where we want this to be costed at, put stats on accordingly and then adjust cost by a few points if need be. It's the issue of what we want this piece to do and what it's role will be in a squad.
If we wanted this piece to be a major piece and do a lot, (which I think is a mistake) then we could say cost between 50-60 and work from there. We don't need to set cost in stone but we have to have some idea of where we want this to be costed. (which is why I suggested my line at a cost of 29).

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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:17 pm 
One of The Ones
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sthlrd2 wrote:
I actually like that. I'm not sure on stealth but don't know a better way yet. I disagree with savage. With emplacement, it doesn't have to deal with the negative aspect but can just get boosted by Celeste and rancor keeper and what not. I love indiscriminate on him.


Boosting would be even more dramatic without Savage. Perhaps drop Savage, but 'not subject to commander effects' should be part of the Sarlacc ability?

For defense against shooters, we could add back in the rule prohibiting targeting/attacking while more than 3 away. Not exactly thematic without a pit, but we can tell ourselves that it's inside an indestructible metal pot that prevents LOS from too far away. Makes more sense inside a building or starship that way, anyway.

Quote:
I like jakes idea but would go 30 damage save 16 add in double or triple.


I think save 16 would hurt Melee attackers too much, but I could go with Triple instead of Double. I'm kind of on the fence between the two, assuming a Furious Assault type ability is also included.

Quote:
I would rename this to something like "Sweeping Attack" (and perhaps even make it just replace attacks) this change would put it in line with lightsaber sweep, so that it could potentially be used on other figures down the line.


Good point about Replaces Attacks. On this piece it makes no difference since it can't move anyway, but a replaces attack ability is more likely to be re-used. Also, I agree that sweeping might be a better term to put in the ability's name. There should probably also be a term that sounds 'out of control' to indicate that it attacks all adjacent characters - not just enemies. Wild Sweep? I think an ability called "Sweeping Attack" should only target enemies.

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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:45 pm 
Death Star Designers
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What is the sweeping attack supposed to simulate? Why not just give it tripple or quad rather than create a new ability? Maybe if you reference a scene in the movie to explain what the power is supposed to represent, that would make more sense to me.


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:55 pm 
Sith Apprentice
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FlyingArrow wrote:
Good point about Replaces Attacks. On this piece it makes no difference since it can't move anyway, but a replaces attack ability is more likely to be re-used. Also, I agree that sweeping might be a better term to put in the ability's name. There should probably also be a term that sounds 'out of control' to indicate that it attacks all adjacent characters - not just enemies. Wild Sweep? I think an ability called "Sweeping Attack" should only target enemies.


If you want to go that route I suggest my Callous ability and word the sweep so that it attacks all "adjacent legal targets". This way you have 2 abilities that can be useful for other characters and when combined create the desired effect.


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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 5:59 pm 
One of The Ones
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adamb0nd wrote:
What is the sweeping attack supposed to simulate? Why not just give it tripple or quad rather than create a new ability? Maybe if you reference a scene in the movie to explain what the power is supposed to represent, that would make more sense to me.


It represents the fact that the sarlacc is dangerous to both allies and enemies, so if the sarlacc attacks all the nearby enemies, it'll get the nearby allies too.

Lord_Ball's suggestion might be a better approach: grant Callous (allies are targets) and Sweeping Attack (attack adjacent targets) as two separate abilities. Separating the two abilities might make them more useful for future characters. However, turning allies into targets is going to cause other problems. For instance, if an ally is adjacent, then you can't target anyone non-adjacent. Not sure if that was intended. A moot point on the sarlacc, but Callous might not be very useful for anyone else. If we try to go that route, I'm sure Sithborg will let us know of any other problems. Splitting it would make the card a line longer than necessary, but I'm not too worried about that.

These two options are intended to do the exact same thing on the sarlacc. I'd be happy with either version:

OPTION A: SEPARATE ABILITIES
Sweeping Attack: Replaces attacks; attack each adjacent target once.
Callous: Allies count as legal targets. (OR: Adjacent allies count as legal targets.)

OPTION B
Wild Sweep: Replaces attacks; attack each adjacent character once.

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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 6:17 pm 
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Callous is not happening. If it makes it out of playtesting, it will be because of a misunderstanding of the interactions. It is just a bad ability. Even worse than Savage or Mercenary or Speed 0.

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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 6:27 pm 
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Sithborg wrote:
R5Don4 wrote:
Lightsabers have to be adjacent to work, which should have its own drawbacks.


Lightsaber Throw and Telekinetic Attack.


Appropriately rare.

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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 6:38 pm 
One of The Ones
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Sithborg wrote:
Callous is not happening. If it makes it out of playtesting, it will be because of a misunderstanding of the interactions. It is just a bad ability. Even worse than Savage or Mercenary or Speed 0.


Would Wild Sweep (as written) cause any similar issues?

Wild Sweep: Replaces attacks; attack each adjacent character once.

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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 6:39 pm 
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This is what I'm thinking

Sarlacc

Cost 29
HP 150
DF 14
AT 0
DM 0

Melee Attack
Emplacement
Stealth
Savage
Clamp
Sunken: Characters without Flight that enter a square within 2 squares must end their move adjacent to this character, Save 11.
Gaping Maw: A character that moves adjacent to this character takes 30 Damage, Save 11.

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Last edited by R5Don4 on Mon Nov 05, 2012 10:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 6:56 pm 
One of The Ones
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R5Don4,

Is Melee Attack missing? With Empathy/Thrawn or any other atk/dmg boost, we'd have a shooting Sarlacc.

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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 8:16 pm 
Sith Apprentice
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Sithborg wrote:
Callous is not happening. If it makes it out of playtesting, it will be because of a misunderstanding of the interactions. It is just a bad ability. Even worse than Savage or Mercenary or Speed 0.


Is that for FlyingArrows rewrite of the ability or my original version as well?

As I originally had it it's more of an optional ability (though another ability that requires attacking all potential targets would make using it mandatory - which was my suggestion). I can see the problem involved in counting them as legal targets, but my original wording wasn't quite that extreme.

Edit: My "Glossary Text" entry would look something like this
"Characters with this ability may target allied characters as well as enemy characters with it's attacks, Special Abilities, and Force Powers. When using this ability an allied character is treated as an enemy character for the purpose of targeting rules, and any effect that mentions enemy characters applies to the ally as though they were an enemy. Allies defeated in this way grant the opponent victory points as normal."


Last edited by Lord_Ball on Tue Nov 06, 2012 7:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Sarlacc: Vset Community Project 1
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 8:18 pm 
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I never liked the Callous idea, just never had a chance to respond (work) before Scott responded.

With R5Don4's latest version. I don't like the 0 atk, and 0 dam.
I prefer to see the attack portion of the Sarlac ability worded like this. When this character hits a character, that character is moved to any legal space adjacent to this character.
I envisioned a tentacle flying through the air and hitting and wrapping around someones legs.

The part when an adjacent character activates, it takes 20(30) damge, and can't move as a figure like Lando trying to escape and crawl out and the tenticle wraps tighter and pulls him back in.

I think if you just put -Sarlac Pit- as the ability that limits attacking this character I think it's fine as it gets the point across in a simple understood method. We have to remember it doesn't have to make sence logically, just gameplay wise (which I think it does)

Also on a side note, I think we should limit the new abilities that we create to no more than 2 on this character.

We should start looking into ce's that could break it (even the savage ones) and start adjusting the atk rating accordingly.

Also one more note, who does the PT for these pieces?
Do we?, does the PT committee?, the designers? All of the above? Is this mentioned in our rules/guidelines? And also what is our timetable now?

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