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Community Vset Fringe Project 1 Process
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Author:  FlyingArrow [ Mon Oct 15, 2012 1:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Community Vset Fringe Project 1 Process

In addition to two community designed pieces, we also have to decide on our own rules and procedures for making decisions. This thread is for that discussion.

This entry will hold the decisions we've reached.

Timeline (still tentative):

10/12: Launch
10/12-10/19: Brainstorming...
10/19: Form short list (any ideas that someone seconds other than the original person... this list could be quite long, actually)
10/19-10/22: Discussion of short list
10/22-10/24: Vote on short list
10/24: Trim to Finalists (say, 5 max?) for final voting
10/24-10/27: Discussion of finalists
10/27-10/29: Vote on Finalists


Voting Process (proposed, open for discussion):

Suggestions that earn the support from at least one other person will be advanced to the short list. The candidates on the short list will be posted in a thread. Everyone votes for as many pieces as they want by copying the list of candidates and adding "+1" next to each candidate they want to vote for.

The five candidates with the most votes on the short list advance to be finalists. (In the event of ties, all tied candidates advance to the finalist stage.) The same procedure will be followed for the finalists to get the two winners. If the top votegetter from the short list gets approval from 2/3 of the voters and gets twice as many votes as the 2nd place suggestion, the winner will immediately be considered one of the winners. The other 4 will be voted on as finalists to vie for the second spot.

Tiebreaker for the finalist stage yet to be determined.

Author:  FlyingArrow [ Mon Oct 15, 2012 1:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Community Vset Fringe Project 1 Process

Reserved.

Author:  FlyingArrow [ Mon Oct 15, 2012 5:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Community Vset Fringe Project 1 Process

R5Don4 wrote:
There are still many more days for entries to be allowed and voices to be heard. It is not entirely unlikely of us having 200+ entries, which is fantastic, I hope it is more. To face a short list of 100 though, because of a small arbitrary rule ok'd by a couple people who happened to chime in on this thread at the right time, seems a disservice to the process. What I'm hoping we don't see is a super long short list, that only has people voting for their own entries and unwilling to support others ideas because they feel it will be at the expense of their entry.


Wow, yeah. I was thinking we'd have somewhere between 15 and 40 entries on the short list. I don't think that's too many for anyone to go through on a ballot. It would only be a minute or so of adding +1 to the selections. But 100+ - yeah that would be something else. I guess a cutoff of 50 (?) entries on the short list (+ any ties) is as arbitrary as needing one person to +1 it to advance, but it would put a cap on how big the list could be. And that would be a good thing. At this point, that would include anything with a +1, but if the list gets too large over the next few days, it would mean you need two +1s.

(This was crossposted from the main discussion thread. I thought it might be cleaner to separate out the rules discussion, but if the discussion doesn't take off here, that's fine too.)

Author:  FlyingArrow [ Mon Oct 15, 2012 6:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Community Vset Fringe Project 1 Process

I do think it's important to have a process in place for selecting the names, but hopefully 2 will eventually clearly rise to the top and the specific voting process will not have mattered. After all, this part is not that much unlike a real-life election, and we are all familiar with those.

During the actual design, though, things are not so clear cut. How do we decide when we have reached a consensus on anything? We don't even have a closed list of people who are participating, so a majority is impossible. With all the various proposed SAs and stat sets and even whole rationales for various designs, there will be a huge numbers of variations possible... probably too many to boil it down to a simple election. So how do we handle it? Suggestions welcome.

Probably the best way to do this is to ask youself, "What if I have a great idea that I love and exactly 1/3 of the people agree with me. I'm bound to lose out to another idea - what guidelines would I want in place to ensure that my ideas were treated fairly?" (This is assuming attempt to reach a consensus failed... that's obviously the ideal. We all discuss and reach unanimous agreement! Realistically, that's unlikely to happen, but we'd like to have some structure that ensures everyone feels they're treated fairly and the community designed piece is ultimately able to move forward without grinding to a halt in arguments.)

Author:  FlyingArrow [ Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Community Vset Fringe Project 1 Process

Here's one proposal:

We could do the same sort of thing for design that we did for the names. After a week of batting ideas around, have a thread for "Formal Proposals". Everyone who wants to can put up a full stat card in that thread. Hopefully there aren't that many. Ideally, there would be only certain variations because in the discussion, people come to agree on some ideas. Then out of three people who agree, only one bothers to post a proposal, for example. So we get maybe 8 proposals instead of 20.

Vote on the proposals. (Approval voting, just like we did for the names - vote for as many as you like.)

Take the winner (or maybe have a second round of runoff voting between the top 2 or 3). The winner becomes the 'official card' that we'll work from. From that point, proposed changes need two-thirds approval from people who voice an opinion. (Say, 24 hours from the time of the proposal for people to vote.) At the end, adjust the final cost for the card by taking the median of everyone's votes on what they think the card should cost. The card would have had a cost all along for playtesting purposes - just saying that for that particular number, it should be an average of sorts... not something that requires two-thirds agreement on an exact number. This process will guarantee we always have an 'official card', so whatever is on that card when the deadline comes up is what we hand to the committee.

Playtesting is also going to occur in there somewhere - I figure that's just going to be something that's used to bolster people's arguments for what is broken/not fun/doesn't work, etc.

Author:  adamb0nd [ Mon Oct 22, 2012 9:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Community Vset Fringe Project 1 Process

I suggest this for the final voting process:

Make 2 threads. Each thread has a poll configured with the complete list of all 5 finalist minis. Each user can then vote in each of the 2 threads. We each get two votes. When the deadline hits, both polls are added together for the winners. This also means that if a personal really wants to see one piece make it into the set, he could potentially put both of his votes towards the same piece.

Author:  FlyingArrow [ Mon Oct 22, 2012 10:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Community Vset Fringe Project 1 Process

adamb0nd wrote:
I suggest this for the final voting process:

Make 2 threads. Each thread has a poll configured with the complete list of all 5 finalist minis. Each user can then vote in each of the 2 threads. We each get two votes. When the deadline hits, both polls are added together for the winners. This also means that if a personal really wants to see one piece make it into the set, he could potentially put both of his votes towards the same piece.


We wouldn't need two threads for that. We could do it with one thread where everyone is allowed exactly two votes, but you could vote for the same thing twice.

I don't have any strong opposition to that idea, but I would favor the simpler 'approval voting' that we've used so far - where everyone votes either yes or no on each of the five finalists. If people can vote for something twice, a less popular name with a few strong proponents could beat out a name that would make nearly everyone happy.

Example: 65% of the people use one of their two votes on X. 33% of the people vote for Y, but they all vote 'double' for Y, while 67% don't vote for Y at all. Allowing 2 votes per person could have Y winning, even though 67% didn't want it, and there's another option (X) that 65% of the people agreed on. I think our goal should be to maximize the number of happy people.

Still, see if there are other people who agree with your voting rules. I'm not opposed if that's what everyone wants to do.

Author:  FlyingArrow [ Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Community Vset Fringe Project 1 Process

Proposal for tiebreaker on the names (if needed):

24hour (or less) Runoff vote - one vote per person. If it's still a tie, R5Don4 breaks the tie.

Author:  R5Don4 [ Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Community Vset Fringe Project 1 Process

The only way I'll be able to break a tie, is if I hold my vote to the last, which I am happy to do because just like everyone else, I only have one vote.

Author:  FlyingArrow [ Thu Oct 25, 2012 8:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Community Vset Fringe Project 1 Process

So if there's a runoff you'll play the role of the Vice President in the Senate? Oh wait - you're Canadian. Yeah - anyway, that's what the Vice President does. He's the 101st vote in the Senate, but only votes if it's to break a tie.

Author:  R5Don4 [ Thu Oct 25, 2012 8:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Community Vset Fringe Project 1 Process

Yeah I watched John Adams.

Author:  R5Don4 [ Thu Oct 25, 2012 8:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Community Vset Fringe Project 1 Process

If it happens to be relevant my favorite alien races are:

Trandoshan
Snivvian
Quarren
Rodian
Chevin
Dashade
Arcona
Gotal
Gran
Ishi Tib
Mantellian Savrip
Duros

Author:  kamikaze13 [ Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Community Vset Fringe Project 1 Process

FlyingArrow wrote:
Proposal for tiebreaker on the names (if needed):

24hour (or less) Runoff vote - one vote per person. If it's still a tie, R5Don4 breaks the tie.
Well, I don't have a problem with that.

Author:  Lord_Ball [ Tue Oct 30, 2012 5:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Community Vset Fringe Project 1 Process

For the stat portion I think probably the best way to go would be after the full submissions are made use the average for the base stats then based on the submissions figure out how many SAs the figure should have and have people vote for their top ones (how ever many is decided upon minus auto-includes such as emplacement/droid/ewok, etc.). This way if Sithborg nixes a SA it doesn't necessarily invalidate a whole build.

let the cost be determined last and the 1 thing that gets tweaked the most in play testing.

Author:  R5Don4 [ Tue Oct 30, 2012 6:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Community Vset Fringe Project 1 Process

Scott won't kill an SA necessarily outright, just change the way it works.

Author:  FlyingArrow [ Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Community Vset Fringe Project 1 Process

Lord_Ball wrote:
For the stat portion I think probably the best way to go would be after the full submissions are made use the average for the base stats then based on the submissions figure out how many SAs the figure should have and have people vote for their top ones (how ever many is decided upon minus auto-includes such as emplacement/droid/ewok, etc.). This way if Sithborg nixes a SA it doesn't necessarily invalidate a whole build.

let the cost be determined last and the 1 thing that gets tweaked the most in play testing.


I like the idea of averaging stats to determine the initial card. However, I don't think we should mix and match the SAs quite that way. Stat card ideas aren't usually able to be broken up that way - if you lose one part you could lose the whole idea of the card. You could wind up with a Sarlacc with some sort of Pit ability (and Emplacement) along with Speed 1, which wouldn't make sense.

I'd propose the following process:

* Open discussion for X amount of time, where X is about one-third of our allotted design time.

* Allow proposals of full card stats. Give a day or two for people to post their full proposals. Start voting only after that time is up (so that early posters don't earn an advantage). Vote for 3 days or so.

* Take the SAs and CEs from the winning stat card, and then take the median for the four base stats (rounding to the nearest 10 for dmg and HP) from all of the proposed stat cards.

* Based on that stat card, everyone can suggest a cost. (Only allow 24 hours for the cost suggestions.) Take the median cost that was suggested. With the cost, that gives a complete stat card.

* From that point, we have a complete stat card and about half of our allotted design time remaining. Anyone can propose changes (removing abilities, tweaking them, changing stats or cost, etc). Whenever a formal proposal for a change is made, everyone can voice a +1 or -1. After 24 hours, if at least two-thirds of people voting approve the change, it is accepted. Whenever time is up, whatever is left on the accepted card is what is submitted to the design committee.

Author:  Lord_Ball [ Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Community Vset Fringe Project 1 Process

FlyingArrow wrote:

I like the idea of averaging stats to determine the initial card. However, I don't think we should mix and match the SAs quite that way. Stat card ideas aren't usually able to be broken up that way - if you lose one part you could lose the whole idea of the card. You could wind up with a Sarlacc with some sort of Pit ability (and Emplacement) along with Speed 1, which wouldn't make sense.


Obviously contradictory abilities would have to be sorted out so only the logical ones apply (this would be done when combining the SAs) - if Speed 1 got the highest votes and emplacement and a pit ability made second and third - speed 1 should be dropped in place of the next to highest that function better together.

The main idea is to get a collaboration of efforts from differing point of views, so perhaps another option is, just as with the official name, allow a shorter window of tweaking based on SAs from other submissions.

Author:  FlyingArrow [ Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Community Vset Fringe Project 1 Process

I think if we allot half the design time to tweaking, there will be enough time for the community to agree on changes. The first part of the process I suggested is to reach a starting point, and a way to ensure that we always have "a card" to submit to the committee, should things bog down in the middle.

Making judgment calls on the 'contradictory' SAs thing would get really controversial really quickly. One person suggested Troop Cart and Emplacement for the Sarlacc - some might think those are contradictory, but they're part of one person's design. I think we'd be better off with an open discussion, followed by a vote of full stat cards, and then tweak the winner as much as the community wants to.

That being said, if you have another preference, it would be great to see a full set of proposed rules for the process. Feel free to write them up and post them.

Author:  Lord_Ball [ Wed Oct 31, 2012 3:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Community Vset Fringe Project 1 Process

FlyingArrow wrote:
Making judgment calls on the 'contradictory' SAs thing would get really controversial really quickly. One person suggested Troop Cart and Emplacement for the Sarlacc - some might think those are contradictory, but they're part of one person's design. I think we'd be better off with an open discussion, followed by a vote of full stat cards, and then tweak the winner as much as the community wants to.


Contradictory would just be that - two abilities that cannot ever work in conjunction with one another.

Emplacement and Troop Cart would work fine together (Basically it would mean the "cart" just provides cover), though Troop Cart wouldn't really fit the sarlacc as is (especially since it's relative to allies only) - however a modified version of it just may. Emplacement and any Speed is clearly contradictory, and the idea of a moving pit would certainly have to be ruled on by Sithborg before outright allowing.


FlyingArrow wrote:
That being said, if you have another preference, it would be great to see a full set of proposed rules for the process. Feel free to write them up and post them.

How about this:
Submission of stats - 1 set per individual (changes allowed until the submission date cut off)
voting on SAs/CE (find out which SAs are preffered) - figure out base stats using the average
Tweak stats submission to included preffered SAs/CE and the decided base stats(shorter time frame)
vote on final build

kind of a combination of both methods that way.

Author:  Weeks [ Wed Oct 31, 2012 3:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Community Vset Fringe Project 1 Process

Deadline for first draft of both pieces November 31st.

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