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 Post subject: Re: Community Vset Fringe Project 1 Process
PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:09 pm 
Sith Apprentice
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Lord_Ball wrote:
How about this:
Submission of stats - 1 set per individual (changes allowed until the submission date cut off)
voting on SAs/CE (find out which SAs are preffered) - figure out base stats using the average
Tweak stats submission to included preffered SAs/CE and the decided base stats(shorter time frame)
vote on final build

kind of a combination of both methods that way.

A slight modification:
Instead of voting on SAs/CE vote on your 2 favorite builds of those builds select 2-3 SA's from each and 1 CE (when applicable) that you like the most (basically limits the SAs selection to 4-6, but helps keep some consistency in that "paired" SAs have a better chance of sticking together).

Then of the top 5(or so?) SAs 2-3 are required in the tweaked build and choose 1 of the top 3 CEs (when applicable)

it's a bit muddy but I think anyway it's handled will be to a certain degree.


Last edited by Lord_Ball on Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Community Vset Fringe Project 1 Process
PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:24 pm 
Droid Army Commander
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Weeks wrote:
Deadline for first draft of both pieces November 31st.


30 days hath November. Dec 1?

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 Post subject: Re: Community Vset Fringe Project 1 Process
PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:26 pm 
Death Star Designers
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R5Don4 wrote:
Weeks wrote:
Deadline for first draft of both pieces November 31st.


30 days hath November. Dec 1?


It's a leap year, extra day in November. :)

End of November.

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 Post subject: Re: Community Vset Fringe Project 1 Process
PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:04 pm 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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How about for now we say that we have ten days of open discussion. On the tenth we will start posting full stat cards. Voting on the eleventh or twelfth. Hopefully by then we will have decided on how to handle the voting. Then another couple weeks for tweaking and changing. Sound good?


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 Post subject: Re: Community Vset Fringe Project 1 Process
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 5:50 am 
Sith Apprentice
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FlyingArrow wrote:
How about for now we say that we have ten days of open discussion. On the tenth we will start posting full stat cards. Voting on the eleventh or twelfth. Hopefully by then we will have decided on how to handle the voting. Then another couple weeks for tweaking and changing. Sound good?

Since the first part is going to be posting full stats regardless we can start with having people post 1 set of stats per character while the discussion takes place - that way there is more than one to two day(s) of allowing for posting.

then if after voting there is a clear winner (or even a top 2-3 that stand above the rest) I could see "skipping" the SA/CE idea in favor of allowing members to submit a tweaked version of 1 of the top ones and having the final vote on the tweaked versions - or perhaps have 2 runs of tweaking if time allowed.

so something like
nov1-9 Initial stats
nov10-12 voting on top 2 faves (must vote for at least 1 that's not your own submission - so a single vote for your own submission isn't accountable, however if accompanied by a vote for another submission it is).
nov13-17 base stats determined and tweaking round one or resubmissions including preffered abilities and averaged stats
nov 18-20 revoting
nov 21-26 tweaking (round 2)
nov 26-28 final vote
nov 29-30 cost discussed/determined - first draft finalized


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 Post subject: Re: Community Vset Fringe Project 1 Process
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 8:43 am 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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I prefer simplicity where possible.

Nov 1-10: Discussion. People are free to post SAs/CEs/full stat cards for discussion, but no voting takes place yet.
Nov 11-12: Post full stat cards in a separate thread.
Nov 13-14: Voting on full stat cards, using approval voting (i.e. +1s on as many or as few proposals as you like). Result is an official Working Draft. Open question: how the Working Draft is drawn from the proposed stat cards. Perhaps the Working Draft is simply the winning stat card - perhaps some combination of stats... yet to be decided.
Nov 15-30: Testing and changes on the Working Draft. Anyone can propose changes. Two-thirds vote required for a change to take effect. (That is, two-thirds of the people who vote. For each proposal, there is a 24 hour window of voting before it is rejected or accepted.)

I could see having a run-off vote for the top 2 stat cards, but breaking it up into separate votes for CEs/SAs/etc seems more complicated than necessary. I think that can be handled by the open proposals and two-thirds votes during the second half of the month.


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 Post subject: Re: Community Vset Fringe Project 1 Process
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 9:07 am 
Sith Apprentice
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FlyingArrow wrote:
I prefer simplicity where possible.

Nov 1-10: Discussion. People are free to post SAs/CEs/full stat cards for discussion, but no voting takes place yet.
Nov 11-12: Post full stat cards in a separate thread.

To me this is WAY too short of a time span for official stat entry. I see no reason why the discussion cannot happen simultaneously as people submit their stats. Stats can certainly be modified (just edit your post) throughout the submission period so that when the voting time comes lock the thread if desired so each person only has one submission that is no longer editted.

Discussion of stats should be handled in the project threads that way the stat threads are just that stat submissions and nothing else.

Initial submission period should probably be the longest followed closely by a "final tweaks" period. a few days for voting is fine, but really votes should be limited to perhaps 3. My restriction was so that people don't ONLY vote for themselves - which should help slightly in varying the top choices.

Honestly the "discussion of stats" portion sounds basically like figuring out the selection of preffered SAs/CE that I had been throwing around.

so perhaps lets modify this to:
nov 1-10 initial stat submissions
nov 11-12 voting
nov13-18 more in depth stat discussion
nov 19-25 tweak submissions
nov 26-28 final voting
nov29-30 figure point cost discussion

Since it only needs to be a first draft by the end of the month I wouldn't worry so much about the "testing" portion you mention at this time. The big test issues should get worked out in the stat discussion portion anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: Community Vset Fringe Project 1 Process
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 9:31 am 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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People can develop their stat cards over the course of the first 10 days. No reason they can't post full stat cards. The reason for the shorter submission period is just what you said - so that the stat card thread has only the stats without discussion. That should make voting much easier on people. If the formal proposals thread is opened earlier, I think the stat card proposals and the discussion will get mixed together.


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 Post subject: Re: Community Vset Fringe Project 1 Process
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 9:44 am 
Sith Apprentice
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FlyingArrow wrote:
People can develop their stat cards over the course of the first 10 days. No reason they can't post full stat cards. The reason for the shorter submission period is just what you said - so that the stat card thread has only the stats without discussion. That should make voting much easier on people. If the formal proposals thread is opened earlier, I think the stat card proposals and the discussion will get mixed together.

I guess I just don't understand the point of stat discussion before the first round of submission. It seems like it'd be counter-productive at that point.

After the first round of voting is when stat discussion will really matter - until then things are so up in the air and wide open (as they should be) I see it as a waste of precious time.

Should someone comment in the stat thread just request they remove their post. Hopefully people would read the first post and abide by the wishes of a clutter free topic, but I think that may be asking too much of the internet.


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 Post subject: Re: Community Vset Fringe Project 1 Process
PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 6:14 pm 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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jonnyb815 wrote:
Lets come up with a few other designs and play test them. Since this one seems like a winner.
We make up two others play test them and see who is the winner at the end. Voting on stats is dumb and pointless


We aren't likely to have time to thoroughly test several designs before we need to submit a draft (the 30th). I doubt the committee is going to take several variants into formal playtesting. If you have a proposal and want to playtest before we have a vote, that's fine - it would strengthen your arguments. But ultimately, we are likely to need a vote at some point. Right now, we don't have that process in place.

You say voting is dumb and pointless, but that is the way we would find a winner. If playtesting is done before voting, so much the better, but even after playtesting it's unlikely there will be unanimity. Consensus is voting.


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 Post subject: Re: Community Vset Fringe Project 1 Process
PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 11:10 pm 
Dark Lord of the Sith
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Voting is dumb then why dont we just come up with a stat card together like they do.

They post a stat. Talk about it then test it if it doesnt work they rework the card. They can post up to 2-5 different ideas before they even go to testing. They have 3-4 people talking vs like 10. Its the same idea though. We dont need to vote. We just need to work together and if you dont like something about the build or where its going speak up and post your idea.

Most the time in my job we throw a few ideas out then we as a group a long with the idea even if we dont like. We just make it work. If the idea is a flop we go back to the drawing board. There is kind of a vote. People speak up and if they dont like it they say so. Then a lot of time we try and work some of there ideas into the video or flyer.

Just voting like we do for a name or a art banner is not the way to go. Unless we as a greoup really have a few soild ideas.
Ball thinks everyone should get a shot even if their idea is not even worth a shot.

Again what I am saying is we should try and work together and get a base line. Throw out a few tests. If its not the way we want it to go then we go back to the drawing board.

We really need to get the flavor down and stop worrying what about game play but the feel of the character as a stat card.


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 Post subject: Re: Community Vset Fringe Project 1 Process
PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 11:12 pm 
Dark Lord of the Sith
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Lord_Ball wrote:
FlyingArrow wrote:
People can develop their stat cards over the course of the first 10 days. No reason they can't post full stat cards. The reason for the shorter submission period is just what you said - so that the stat card thread has only the stats without discussion. That should make voting much easier on people. If the formal proposals thread is opened earlier, I think the stat card proposals and the discussion will get mixed together.

I guess I just don't understand the point of stat discussion before the first round of submission. It seems like it'd be counter-productive at that point.

After the first round of voting is when stat discussion will really matter - until then things are so up in the air and wide open (as they should be) I see it as a waste of precious time.

Should someone comment in the stat thread just request they remove their post. Hopefully people would read the first post and abide by the wishes of a clutter free topic, but I think that may be asking too much of the internet.

can you just leave? I am sick of it.

I am just gone. Ball is pissing me off.


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 Post subject: Re: Community Vset Fringe Project 1 Process
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 7:05 am 
Sith Apprentice
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jonnyb815 wrote:
Lord_Ball wrote:
FlyingArrow wrote:
People can develop their stat cards over the course of the first 10 days. No reason they can't post full stat cards. The reason for the shorter submission period is just what you said - so that the stat card thread has only the stats without discussion. That should make voting much easier on people. If the formal proposals thread is opened earlier, I think the stat card proposals and the discussion will get mixed together.

I guess I just don't understand the point of stat discussion before the first round of submission. It seems like it'd be counter-productive at that point.

After the first round of voting is when stat discussion will really matter - until then things are so up in the air and wide open (as they should be) I see it as a waste of precious time.

Should someone comment in the stat thread just request they remove their post. Hopefully people would read the first post and abide by the wishes of a clutter free topic, but I think that may be asking too much of the internet.

can you just leave? I am sick of it.

I am just gone. Ball is pissing me off.

:lol:

It's a discussion thread on how the process should work that was rather quiet, so I offered a differing point of view regarding probably the most complicated section of this entire process. I don't believe I was ever rude (if I was it wasn't my intent), however I was seeking insight into what the goal FlyingArrow was looking to achieve during the discussion period.

jonnyb815 wrote:
Ball thinks everyone should get a shot even if their idea is not even worth a shot.

You mean I want this communtiy effort project to feel like it was actually a COMMUNITY EFFORT :shock:


All that said, excuse me if I fail to give a damn what you think of my ideas.


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 Post subject: Re: Community Vset Fringe Project 1 Process
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 10:15 am 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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jonnyb815 wrote:
Again what I am saying is we should try and work together and get a base line. Throw out a few tests. If its not the way we want it to go then we go back to the drawing board.


Exactly. That's what we're doing right now. In the end, though, there are too many people to expect unanimity, so a vote eventually is inevitable. Hopefully there's so much agreement that the vote is just over small things like the attack rating or minor wording, etc. But I think it's a bit optimistic that any amount of discussion will reach a unanimous decision on the stat card.


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 Post subject: Re: Community Vset Fringe Project 1 Process
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 2:27 pm 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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I initially said to post for voting on the 10th, but I don't think we're close to being ready for a vote and then refinement. New proposed timeline:

Continue discussion (and playtesting if people can)... now until the 16th.
Post stat cards the 18th.
Voting starts on the 20th, end 22nd.
Still leaves a week for refinements.

Perhaps we have 2 stat cards move forward for the last week of changes and then have a showdown between the top two.

(Or maybe we'll shock the world and have a whole Internet community coalesce around a single card. That would take some Jedi Mind Trick powers I think. :obi: )


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 Post subject: Re: Community Vset Fringe Project 1 Process
PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 10:57 am 
Sith Apprentice
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FlyingArrow wrote:
I initially said to post for voting on the 10th, but I don't think we're close to being ready for a vote and then refinement.


Wasn't the point of voting to narrow down the base design to be refined?

With different points of view and approaches to the figures (especially the Sarlacc) voting was determined to be the way to narrow that down to 1 or 2 different builds to continue with before deciding on the final design to submit for the first draft of the character.


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 Post subject: Re: Community Vset Fringe Project 1 Process
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:44 am 
Sith Apprentice
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FlyingArrow wrote:
Continue discussion (and playtesting if people can)... now until the 16th.
Post stat cards the 18th.
Voting starts on the 20th, end 22nd.
Still leaves a week for refinements.

Perhaps we have 2 stat cards move forward for the last week of changes and then have a showdown between the top two.

The threads are getting quiet I think it may be time to move on to the next step...


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 Post subject: Re: Community Vset Fringe Project 1 Process
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:22 pm 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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I agree.


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 Post subject: Re: Community Vset Fringe Project 1 Process
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:45 pm 
Droid Army Commander
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I agree, I also think it's safe to say, we're ready for next step.

We better act quick while everyone is distracted by free TOR!

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 Post subject: Re: Community Vset Fringe Project 1 Process
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:02 pm 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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Based on the unanimous agreement, we shall move forward!

R5Don4, can you go ahead and start new threads for full stat card submissions? There were a few proposals, but as far as I remember no one voted for anything they didn't post so I'm not sure what to do about that.

I suggest simple voting kind of like what we had on the names...

* Post full stat cards from whenever you get the threads up until... noon on Nov 25? You can choose. Due to Thanksgiving, this window might need to be a bit longer than it would otherwise be.
* After time is up, start a new thread (so early entries don't get a head start) for voting. Leave voting open for 48 hours or so.
* Approval voting (i.e. +1s). So anyone can +1 anything they like. Whatever gets the most +1s moves forward as our stat card.
* Further discussion can change the stat card if any change gets 2/3 approval out of those who voice an opinion (minimum 24 hours discussion per change).


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