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A survey of NPE's (Negative Play Experiences)
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Author:  audrisampson [ Thu Sep 06, 2012 9:38 am ]
Post subject:  A survey of NPE's (Negative Play Experiences)

I figured since it came up in the GOWK thread it might be a good idea for people to post the the figures that really make for a unfun game when you play against them. That is something our Vset designers can kindoff check out and hopefully not make more of.

I guess I'll start with mine.

1. Lobot - Sorry but starting the game with 20pts of hate against you sitting on the table is good tactics but I certainly don't think its fun. Also it doesn't help that since I lean heavy on melee and 90% of the time I go against Lobot, mouse droids are sure to follow.

2. Thrawn - If him having Yasamari wasn't bad enough he gets to tell you who goes first until you eat through the entire squad around him and get to him. I know there are other figures with Master Tac. but at least more often then not those figures actually have to come out and engage a little bit rather then just hiding in the back wearing a white Pimp Suit. Also if your not dealing with force bubbles then you get a cheaper for your opponent figure giving everyone Opportunist that they can add to Ozzel and make activation control more obnoxious

3. Dodonna, Hill, Ozzel.. I think every list will include these rule breakers. I don't think I need to go into details on this one.

4. Nom Anor - This is just a personal peeve of mine dating back to when I came into the game with Champions

I guess there are a few others that will appear on others list that really don't bother me all that much. Bastilla is annoying but since I love tanks she isn't really all that bad against me. Also the one squad I play that she can really screw with odds are Im bringing in Mando Scientist to deal with her.

Author:  thereisnotry [ Thu Sep 06, 2012 9:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A survey of NPE's (Negative Play Experiences)

Nice idea!

1. Dodonna/San/Ozzel. I'd prefer to just engage in combat, rather than waiting for my opponent to make his move at the end of the round.
2. Poggle. Drones for 2pts is fine. But giving them SD 20, that is another story entirely.
3. Mouse Swarms. Relay Orders on a 3pt piece is an excellent idea. But blocking LOS and movement is so annoying.
4. Naboo Pilots. Bravado +20 on a 11 9pt piece? Ok, and let's give them easy access to Twin too! :roll:

I've played all of these pieces/tactics before, and I likely will again...but that doesn't mean I enjoy them or think they're good for the game.

Author:  audrisampson [ Thu Sep 06, 2012 9:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A survey of NPE's (Negative Play Experiences)

thereisnotry wrote:
Nice idea!
3. Mouse Swarms. Relay Orders on a 3pt piece is an excellent idea. But blocking LOS and movement is so annoying.


+1

The mouse droid was probably one of the better ideas WOTC had. Even giving it a base 20 defense so it could last was a good idea but allowing a figure the size of a foot to provide cover and hinder movement is STUPID.

By the way here is my fix for the card

Miniuature Stature - This figure may not provide cover, nor can it block movement of enemy pieces. Also it can not make attacks of opportunity.

That would answer so many problems and also fit in the flavor of the piece since you see them getting stepped over in the film whenever you see them.

Author:  Echo [ Thu Sep 06, 2012 9:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A survey of NPE's (Negative Play Experiences)

I was thinking about starting this thread myself, so glad you did so.

My main NPE's (no real order):

1) Yobuck/Lancer. I put these two together because they are the two really big movement breakers. They can attack while they move which is a big part of why I don't like them. They just eat up swarms (which I actually enjoy; I loved playing 24 acts at GenCon!), and they force me to hide characters in closets. Sure, I don't really want Dodonna or Thrawn or whatever leading the charge, but I like to take shots or combine fire with everyone I can. Huge movement breaking (but these 2 pieces especially, since they attack while moving) mean that the only characters that I can even have out in the middle of the map are my beefy characters. I'd rather use my whole squad. Also, I don't like trying to figure out everywhere they can move. I've gotten pretty good at it since I've played against both of these pieces a ton, but it's still pretty annoying.

2) Bastila. She wrecks CE-heavy squads, and turning on ABM is such a gigantic swing because you're making your own characters much more effective (+10 Damage for everybody is a lot) while neutering my squad (or at least hurting it significantly; I play CEs a lot). I always thought Disruptive was fine because it was tactical and required careful play and placement since it's just within 6; it takes no tactical mind to use Bastila. All that for just 33 points, and then she's a great cleanup fighter! She could have easily had no fighting capabilities whatsoever and still be worth her cost just for 33 points. Or she could have had 1 less FP so you have to think a little harder about when to use ABM; starting with 3 FP makes it too easy to keep it up for most of the game.

3) Poggle the Lesser. Simply because more 2 point pieces is bad. Like I said, I like swarms, but 2 points is just too cheap, especially for what is really an effective piece. It's annoying and didn't need to happen.


There are probably more, but those are the main ones that I can think of right now. I'll add more later if I think of more.

Author:  fingersandteeth [ Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A survey of NPE's (Negative Play Experiences)

sure, i'll play

1. Mace LotLS - oh you mean i lost because I attacked you and you crit 3 times on a riposte? seems fair. Thanks for the game.

2. The rebels before Bastilla. Hey, let me put 4 really strong commanders on my squad for a total of less than 50 that makes it hard for you to keep up with activations, evade 50/50 attacks, makes my 16 point non unique cannons and more than double the firepower of any follower. Not only that, but let me make everything else cheap so you can have that and 10 billion activations. Oh don't mind them, they sit in the back spinning.

3. San Lancer - you mean you'll wait me out and kill all my tech before i can do stang? Hey great game, let me know when you've taken your 15 minutes to count out and make your "clever" move.

4. lock out - so you've killed all my door control and you won't let me play. I'll be at the bar.

5. Boba BH - you crit, so, game over? Well played, you worked hard for that 20.

6. SSM - another 11+ save? Perhaps in one of the next 24 saves you might have to spend a force point

7. stupid dice - ROLL ABOVE A 4 OR I WILL END YOU!!!!

8. Mice - Ha Ha, you can't see or step over my 6 inch droid. Ha, i have 15 of them too.

Author:  Echo [ Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A survey of NPE's (Negative Play Experiences)

Deri hasn't been happy with the meta in years, apparently. :lol:

Author:  fingersandteeth [ Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A survey of NPE's (Negative Play Experiences)

there have been factors with this game that have pissed me off since day one.

I could write a book.......

Author:  Lord_Ball [ Thu Sep 06, 2012 11:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A survey of NPE's (Negative Play Experiences)

audrisampson wrote:
Miniuature Stature - This figure may not provide cover, nor can it block movement of enemy pieces. Also it can not make attacks of opportunity.


I would have preferred a base 16 defense and
Tiny (+6 defense for attackers more than 6 squares away, does not provide cover)

You have to allow them to block movement - at the very least they are a tripping hazard! :lol: but yeah they should never have provided cover.

Author:  audrisampson [ Thu Sep 06, 2012 11:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A survey of NPE's (Negative Play Experiences)

Lord_Ball wrote:
audrisampson wrote:
Miniuature Stature - This figure may not provide cover, nor can it block movement of enemy pieces. Also it can not make attacks of opportunity.


I would have preferred a base 16 defense and
Tiny (+6 defense for attackers more than 6 squares away, does not provide cover)

You have to allow them to block movement - at the very least they are a tripping hazard! :lol: but yeah they should never have provided cover.


Why do they have to block movement? Even a 4 yr old could step over them as small as they are. Also this would force them into being used as they are and not used for the mouse dump. Also the reason I like the 20 defense is because they are the one thing that hold together squads like Mandos. Once they are blown up the squad can fall into dissaray pretty badly... Trust me on this one LOL

Here is a Vset 5 figure proposal

Average Guy:

Cost 5pts
Hp 10
attack: 1
Defense:10
Damage: 0

Common Sense: When this character enters play all mouse droids gain Miniuature stature until the end of the match.
Civilian: May not be subject to commader effects

"Yup, Steve you were right I can just step over that Mouse Droid in the hallway"

Author:  hannahcannon [ Thu Sep 06, 2012 1:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A survey of NPE's (Negative Play Experiences)

I love that idea Audri. It would turn them back into what they were designed for. Nothing worse than losing because I'm getting shot up from behind an impenetrable wall of ankle high droids.

Attacking characters with override are also very annoying. Override door open with R7, shoot, override door shut is incredibly aggravating.

Author:  audrisampson [ Thu Sep 06, 2012 1:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A survey of NPE's (Negative Play Experiences)

hannahcannon wrote:
I love that idea Audri. It would turn them back into what they were designed for. Nothing worse than losing because I'm getting shot up from behind an impenetrable wall of ankle high droids.

Attacking characters with override are also very annoying. Override door open with R7, shoot, override door shut is incredibly aggravating.


I think that is Ben saying... Audri I'm sick of you playing Atton Rand LOL :mrgreen:

Author:  thereisnotry [ Thu Sep 06, 2012 1:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A survey of NPE's (Negative Play Experiences)

Audri, I love what you suggested. However, the piece has to be Unique, or else we'll have Average Guy Swarms dominating the meta next year. :)

And I had something very similar to your version of "Miniature Stature" too.
audrisampson wrote:
George Lucas
Cost 2pts
Hp 10
Defense: 10
Attack: +0
Damage: 0

Special Abilities:
Unique
Common Sense: For the duration of the skirmish, all characters whose name contains Mouse Droid gain Diminutive [this character does not provide cover and moves to the nearest empty space when a non-Diminutive character enters its space].
Director: This character is not subject to commader effects.

"Since I am the license, there's no way that a 6-inch tall remote controlled car is going to provide cover and block movement!" --what Lucas should have said.

Author:  Weeks [ Thu Sep 06, 2012 1:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A survey of NPE's (Negative Play Experiences)

thereisnotry wrote:
Audri, I love what you suggested. However, the piece has to be Unique, or else we'll have Average Guy Swarms dominating the meta next year. :)

And I had something very similar to your version of "Miniature Stature" too.
audrisampson wrote:
George Lucas
Cost 2pts
Hp 10
Defense: 10
Attack: +0
Damage: 0

Special Abilities:
Unique
Common Sense: For the duration of the skirmish, all characters whose name contains Mouse Droid gain Diminutive [this character does not provide cover and moves to the nearest empty space when a non-Diminutive character enters its space].
Director: This character is not subject to commader effects.

"Since I am the license, there's no way that a 6-inch tall remote controlled car is going to provide cover and block movement!" --what Lucas should have said.


I would love killing this piece every game.

Author:  audrisampson [ Thu Sep 06, 2012 1:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A survey of NPE's (Negative Play Experiences)

thereisnotry wrote:
Audri, I love what you suggested. However, the piece has to be Unique, or else we'll have Average Guy Swarms dominating the meta next year. :)

And I had something very similar to your version of "Miniature Stature" too.
audrisampson wrote:
George Lucas
Cost 2pts
Hp 10
Defense: 10
Attack: +0
Damage: 0

Special Abilities:
Unique
Common Sense: For the duration of the skirmish, all characters whose name contains Mouse Droid gain Diminutive [this character does not provide cover and moves to the nearest empty space when a non-Diminutive character enters its space].
Director: This character is not subject to commader effects.

"Since I am the license, there's no way that a 6-inch tall remote controlled car is going to provide cover and block movement!" --what Lucas should have said.


OMG its perfect!!! How do we get this on Vset 5??

Author:  hannahcannon [ Thu Sep 06, 2012 1:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A survey of NPE's (Negative Play Experiences)

audrisampson wrote:
I think that is Ben saying... Audri I'm sick of you playing Atton Rand LOL :mrgreen:


More like I'm sick of Shawn and his ERC's on broken base. I haven't seen as many people play with the doors too badly with Atton. And love the George Lucas thing. That's awesome.

Author:  Echo [ Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A survey of NPE's (Negative Play Experiences)

hannahcannon wrote:
More like I'm sick of Shawn and his ERC's on broken base..


I definitely think this thread should be opened up to things other than pieces that are NPE's, like maps. I find it really interesting to see what things I love that others consider an NPE (Ravaged Base is the best map!), and vice-versa the things that I hate that others love.


The new Cantina Map is, in my opinion, an NPE. It takes way too long to get from the right side to the center, and the scattered low objects around the left side are annoying to say the least. I've played on it a few times and disliked it every time. I also think that the new Zam with Rigged Detonators will probably be able to abuse the heck out of it with all the low objects.

The old hardboard map from the RotS starter is also an NPE for me, and I have no idea why when people see "Standard Map List" at things like the Jedi Challenge at GenCon that they think "Oh sweet, a chance for me to use the hardboard map!". It's too small and the lines of sight are too long, there isn't enough opportunity for tactical movement, and it's just an awful shooting gallery. There aren't many other Standard maps that people play even when that list is legal, but for some reason I see it being played by multiple people every single year at GenCon during those tournaments.

Author:  audrisampson [ Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A survey of NPE's (Negative Play Experiences)

Ill start on that idea.. I deplore Broken Base. All it is around for to allow stupid tactics like lock out or jamming figures with mouse droids. Nothing ever good comes from seeing that map on the table and usually the person playing the map has some sort of scheme to screw you out of "normal" match and instead replace it with something that is a lot less fun to play against.

Author:  TimmerB123 [ Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A survey of NPE's (Negative Play Experiences)

Most of my NPE can be summed up as this - Outrageous bad luck losing me games where I outplayed my opponent. I am not talking normal luck that is in every game, like losing a key init. I mean OUTRAGEOUSLY bad luck. I respect an opponent when the outplay me. Frustrated with myself sure, but it feels just that they win. When I lost to Weeks in the champs this year, he beat me. I made a stupid reinforcement choice, and I also made a large play error. He capitalized, and beat me. He deserved the win. Other losses still make my blood boil. In the 2010 champs I outplayed top eight finisher (IMO), but when all I needed to kill his Capt Rex was anything but a 1, and I roll THREE ones in a row, thus losing me the game - that sucks. Odds of that happening are 1 in 8000. In 2011 I lost one game due to rolling 3 of 4 rolls under 4, followed by him rolling 3 of 4 rolls over 18, to kill my lancer, then he ran and hid to get the 2 pt win. Had we not run out of time I would have surely won. Not quite as dramatic, but still pretty bad. This year I lost my 2nd game by my opponent rolling 27 successful evade saves. And they were shot from a force bubble, so no rerolls! Then once again, he ran and hid and stalled out the time to get the 2pt win, where had we finished I would have surely won. If we played it again, I would do it exactly the same way. I played it precisely as I should have, but an INSANE number of lucky saves kept me out of the top 8.


But - as far as more specifics

#1
fingersandteeth wrote:
SSM - another 11+ save? Perhaps in one of the next 24 saves you might have to spend a force point
Well said Deri. And the more annoying in my opinion is Zannah, but GOWK is in a faction with a much deeper talent pool. I'll piggyback and add that Lightsaber Combat Expert is one of the worse creations in the game. It's FREE to use, and it discourages aggressive play. With disintegration, you can avoid being shot, or use a bodyguard, or KILL BOBA BH FIRST. With Reflect, you can shoot from a force bubble, or use melee, or make them use up their FPs. But unless you have direct damage, you have to ATTACK to win, and this is something that could bite you back FOR FREE every time you attack. Lame. Advantage should go to the aggressor.

#2
fingersandteeth wrote:
Mace LotLS - oh you mean i lost because I attacked you and you crit 3 times on a riposte? seems fair. Thanks for the game.
Also well put. When the guy who wins the World Championship uses him and says he's broken and tried to get him tempered in playtesting - you know there's a problem. A. Crits on 17,18,19,20 B. Triple damage on a crit C. extra attack on a crit. One of these needed to go

#3
Avoid Defeat. It wasn't so bad when you needed to be adjacent to a 30pt droid without that ability itsself, or a 10 dam weak shooter. But now it's on sluggers than can dish out 80+ damage easily, and the new NR Mara makes me want to pull my hair out. At a regional this year a kid who had no business being in a close game with me made 6 avoid defeat saves in a row. The rolling wasn't even that dramatic, he used lots of FPs to reroll. He just got the 50/50 single die roll when he needed it. He averaged about 68% 11+, which isn't out of this world, but it made a HUGE difference in the game. If it were an even slightly more skilled player I would have lost that game.

#4
hannahcannon wrote:
Attacking characters with override are also very annoying. Override door open with R7, shoot, override door shut is incredibly aggravating.

Agreed. Advanced door gimmick is so much better - locking doors is the issue. The only thing that is worse than this is adding avoid defeat and FPs. Whoops

#5
fingersandteeth wrote:
Mice - Ha Ha, you can't see or step over my 6 inch droid. Ha, i have 15 of them too.

No problem with relay orders. Not a huge problem with costing 3 and easy to make it cost 2. Don't mind them as mass activation fodder. HATE them as mobile brick walls with 20 Def (24 in cover, 28 with HK or GGDAC). If they didn't provide cover that's all it would need IMO

#6 Weir squads without a speeder. It's almost always a 2 pt win for EITHER side, barring facing all melee where they run at you and get torn apart. Gee, you have a bunch of glass cannons. Wow, I can play slow and cagey and win but it's a 2pt win. Or you get a 2 pt win. Or I run at you like an idiot to give you a 3pt win. That sucks.

#7
thereisnotry wrote:
Naboo Pilots. Bravado +20 on a 11 9pt piece? Ok, and let's give them easy access to Twin too! :roll:

Actually the real problem is Captain Panaka of Theed. Pilots, troopers and soldiers would just be decently good without board-wide twin. Try it out with a czerka - MUCH harder.

#8
Believe it or not:
Echo wrote:
Yobuck/Lancer. I put these two together because they are the two really big movement breakers. They can attack while they move which is a big part of why I don't like them. They just eat up swarms (which I actually enjoy; I loved playing 24 acts at GenCon!), and they force me to hide characters in closets. Sure, I don't really want Dodonna or Thrawn or whatever leading the charge, but I like to take shots or combine fire with everyone I can. Huge movement breaking (but these 2 pieces especially, since they attack while moving) mean that the only characters that I can even have out in the middle of the map are my beefy characters. I'd rather use my whole squad. Also, I don't like trying to figure out everywhere they can move. I've gotten pretty good at it since I've played against both of these pieces a ton, but it's still pretty annoying.

The reason why was put well by Graham a while back. Don't feel like digging it up - but it was something to the effect of the fact that it is extremely hard to play single lancer. It is devastatingly powerful, but fragile. It can surely win many games, but one minor slip and you are finished. No room for error. Also - all the counting gets tedious.

thereisnotry wrote:
I've played all of these pieces/tactics before, and I likely will again...but that doesn't mean I enjoy them or think they're good for the game.


I have sworn off certain of the above pieces/tactics, but that is just a personal choice. I agree in general with Trevor's statement here. When you want to win you play the best stuff. Even if you know the best stuff is broken. Or annoying to play or to play against.

Author:  thereisnotry [ Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A survey of NPE's (Negative Play Experiences)

TimmerB123 wrote:
#2
Mace LotLS....When the guy who wins the World Championship uses him and says he's broken and tried to get him tempered in playtesting - you know there's a problem. A. Crits on 17,18,19,20 B. Triple damage on a crit C. extra attack on a crit. One of these needed to go

Actually, I don't ever recall saying that Mace was broken, because I don't think he is. I simply said the following:
Quote:
I think removing Flurry would solve that matter entirely. He could still do some crazy damage on his turn, but he would not have the infinite-damage capability that he has now.

In fact, I remember strongly urging the removal of Flurry during Playtesting, actually.

I urged dropping him to 60pts and removing Flurry. That was my suggestion. But I don't think he's broken...he's a 65pt melee piece, for Pete's sake, so he'd better be good!

Author:  audrisampson [ Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A survey of NPE's (Negative Play Experiences)

thereisnotry wrote:
But I don't think he's broken...he's a 65pt melee piece, for Pete's sake, so he'd better be good!


That isn't always the case. Having played most of the 60pt + melee pieces most are pretty mediocre. I would say that outside of Windu only maybe Mark Ragnos and Master Thon have any chance of being used in tourney play.

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