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 Post subject: Re: A survey of NPE's (Negative Play Experiences)
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 5:14 pm 
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audrisampson wrote:
Lord_Ball wrote:
audrisampson wrote:
Miniuature Stature - This figure may not provide cover, nor can it block movement of enemy pieces. Also it can not make attacks of opportunity.


I would have preferred a base 16 defense and
Tiny (+6 defense for attackers more than 6 squares away, does not provide cover)

You have to allow them to block movement - at the very least they are a tripping hazard! :lol: but yeah they should never have provided cover.


Why do they have to block movement? Even a 4 yr old could step over them as small as they are. Also this would force them into being used as they are and not used for the mouse dump. Also the reason I like the 20 defense is because they are the one thing that hold together squads like Mandos. Once they are blown up the squad can fall into dissaray pretty badly... Trust me on this one LOL

Here is a Vset 5 figure proposal

Average Guy:

Cost 5pts
Hp 10
attack: 1
Defense:10
Damage: 0

Common Sense: When this character enters play all mouse droids gain Miniuature stature until the end of the match.
Civilian: May not be subject to commader effects

"Yup, Steve you were right I can just step over that Mouse Droid in the hallway"


Well Audri, rather than say +1 to this or Trevor's idea of George Lucas. Let me just point out the flaw in this idea. This would be prime Lobot reinforcements for only 2 or 5 pnts and as I remember in your first post that Lobot is your #1 NPE.

And as Danial was saying about Disruptive vs ABM, that Disruptive was good and a skill to use correctly rather than ABM, where you can just sit there and nerf an entire squad. Let me make a Version of this where it isn't just completely shutting down an ability all together and a skill to use correctly.
Chewbacca "Rebel Prisoner"
You can put somthing like this on him
"Mouse Droid Growl" - When this character ends his move, he may immedietly move all characters named mouse droids that are within 6 up to 6. Mouse droids within 6 gain MINIATURE STATUS.
That would make it a tough skill to use. And it wouldn't be free cheap reinforcements for the figure you HATE.

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 Post subject: Re: A survey of NPE's (Negative Play Experiences)
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 6:25 pm 
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or just give the guy rival for lobot. Then you couldn't bring him in.

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 Post subject: Re: A survey of NPE's (Negative Play Experiences)
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 6:31 pm 
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fingersandteeth wrote:
TheHutts wrote:
Lord Vader - came 2nd in GenCon 2010, although he is hampered by Mace being so popular and having Force Absorb


He's not hampered, he doesn't have a chance in hell against Mace. Double force absorbs from Mace and he gets 2 force a round. LV walks up to him, twins and takes a riposte. A crit on the riposte and Vader has 50 HP left which means he's dead when Mace next activates. If Mace doesn't crit then Vader might see another round, but all he will do is 40 while taking another riposte.

There is NOTHING, LV can do, literally. His only hope is to have Mace in a Ysalimiri bubble with him outside assaulting him.

That's true. LV has no chance at all against Mace...
I wasn't a designer of this piece but I kinda guess that the point of him was to make a character similar to LV but in a Republic faction.
If that's the case then I would do 2 things:
1)Loose flurry attack. 80 dam on crit is bad enough...
2)Lower his force renewal to 1.
Now even LV has chance against Mace in a 1 on 1 fight. And still Mace is cheaper and can do far better damage!


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 Post subject: Re: A survey of NPE's (Negative Play Experiences)
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 7:28 pm 
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komix wrote:
fingersandteeth wrote:
TheHutts wrote:
Lord Vader - came 2nd in GenCon 2010, although he is hampered by Mace being so popular and having Force Absorb


He's not hampered, he doesn't have a chance in hell against Mace. Double force absorbs from Mace and he gets 2 force a round. LV walks up to him, twins and takes a riposte. A crit on the riposte and Vader has 50 HP left which means he's dead when Mace next activates. If Mace doesn't crit then Vader might see another round, but all he will do is 40 while taking another riposte.

There is NOTHING, LV can do, literally. His only hope is to have Mace in a Ysalimiri bubble with him outside assaulting him.

That's true. LV has no chance at all against Mace...
I wasn't a designer of this piece but I kinda guess that the point of him was to make a character similar to LV but in a Republic faction.
If that's the case then I would do 2 things:
1)Loose flurry attack. 80 dam on crit is bad enough...
2)Lower his force renewal to 1.
Now even LV has chance against Mace in a 1 on 1 fight. And still Mace is cheaper and can do far better damage!


He only does 80 damage if you use the Chagrian Mercenary Commander, which is not the best option in these squads.

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 Post subject: Re: A survey of NPE's (Negative Play Experiences)
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 7:29 pm 
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komix wrote:
fingersandteeth wrote:
TheHutts wrote:
Lord Vader - came 2nd in GenCon 2010, although he is hampered by Mace being so popular and having Force Absorb


He's not hampered, he doesn't have a chance in hell against Mace. Double force absorbs from Mace and he gets 2 force a round. LV walks up to him, twins and takes a riposte. A crit on the riposte and Vader has 50 HP left which means he's dead when Mace next activates. If Mace doesn't crit then Vader might see another round, but all he will do is 40 while taking another riposte.

There is NOTHING, LV can do, literally. His only hope is to have Mace in a Ysalimiri bubble with him outside assaulting him.

That's true. LV has no chance at all against Mace...
I wasn't a designer of this piece but I kinda guess that the point of him was to make a character similar to LV but in a Republic faction.
If that's the case then I would do 2 things:
1)Loose flurry attack. 80 dam on crit is bad enough...
2)Lower his force renewal to 1.
Now even LV has chance against Mace in a 1 on 1 fight. And still Mace is cheaper and can do far better damage!


It's the Force Absorb that's the biggest problem for Lord Vader (and Mara Jade Jedi) - if Mace didn't have it, Vader could smack Mace for 160 damage with Sith Rage/Lightsaber Assault - he'd get riposted, but he'd survive unless Mace got multiple crits. Lord Vader's a good GOWK counter otherwise, with overwhelming force, but Mace is generally too tough for him.

They do work kind of differently - Lord Vader works best in a surgical strike squad with Thrawn where he takes out pieces one by one, then swaps to safety, while Mace often works well when he's in the thick of the action.


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 Post subject: Re: A survey of NPE's (Negative Play Experiences)
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 7:55 pm 
Imperial Dignitaries
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sthlrd2 wrote:
Well Audri, rather than say +1 to this or Trevor's idea of George Lucas. Let me just point out the flaw in this idea. This would be prime Lobot reinforcements for only 2 or 5 pnts and as I remember in your first post that Lobot is your #1 NPE.

And as Danial was saying about Disruptive vs ABM, that Disruptive was good and a skill to use correctly rather than ABM, where you can just sit there and nerf an entire squad. Let me make a Version of this where it isn't just completely shutting down an ability all together and a skill to use correctly.
Chewbacca "Rebel Prisoner"
You can put somthing like this on him
"Mouse Droid Growl" - When this character ends his move, he may immedietly move all characters named mouse droids that are within 6 up to 6. Mouse droids within 6 gain MINIATURE STATUS.
That would make it a tough skill to use. And it wouldn't be free cheap reinforcements for the figure you HATE.

The thing is, you shouldn't have to play Rebels in order to ignore mouse walls. The figure HAS to be Fringe, IMHO. And why is it so bad for the piece to come in via Lobot? Any squad that doesn't use Lobot will just mainline Lucas and be doing just as well. [Regardless, the George Lucas that I posted is likely not going to be present in a future V-Set anyway.]

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 Post subject: Re: A survey of NPE's (Negative Play Experiences)
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 8:30 pm 
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thereisnotry wrote:
sthlrd2 wrote:
Well Audri, rather than say +1 to this or Trevor's idea of George Lucas. Let me just point out the flaw in this idea. This would be prime Lobot reinforcements for only 2 or 5 pnts and as I remember in your first post that Lobot is your #1 NPE.

And as Danial was saying about Disruptive vs ABM, that Disruptive was good and a skill to use correctly rather than ABM, where you can just sit there and nerf an entire squad. Let me make a Version of this where it isn't just completely shutting down an ability all together and a skill to use correctly.
Chewbacca "Rebel Prisoner"
You can put somthing like this on him
"Mouse Droid Growl" - When this character ends his move, he may immedietly move all characters named mouse droids that are within 6 up to 6. Mouse droids within 6 gain MINIATURE STATUS.
That would make it a tough skill to use. And it wouldn't be free cheap reinforcements for the figure you HATE.

The thing is, you shouldn't have to play Rebels in order to ignore mouse walls. The figure HAS to be Fringe, IMHO. And why is it so bad for the piece to come in via Lobot? Any squad that doesn't use Lobot will just mainline Lucas and be doing just as well. [Regardless, the George Lucas that I posted is likely not going to be present in a future V-Set anyway.]


I only said, it was a problem to bring in with lobot because that was Audri's #1 NPE. It just seemed weird to me that she would start a thread about NPE's and list Lobot as her #1, and then turn around with an idea that would be prime for lobot reinforcements.
I also agree with Danial about disruptive and ABM so I was just trying to think of an idea that could accomplish what you were thinking and still keep people like Danial and I happy.
Yes, it should be on a fringe piece, which I realized my mistake after I posted it and was just hoping that no one caught it. But come on you have to at least admit that chewy would be a perfect character to create an ability for that would nerf mouse droids.

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 Post subject: Re: A survey of NPE's (Negative Play Experiences)
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 12:43 am 
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sthlrd2 wrote:
thereisnotry wrote:
sthlrd2 wrote:
Well Audri, rather than say +1 to this or Trevor's idea of George Lucas. Let me just point out the flaw in this idea. This would be prime Lobot reinforcements for only 2 or 5 pnts and as I remember in your first post that Lobot is your #1 NPE.

And as Danial was saying about Disruptive vs ABM, that Disruptive was good and a skill to use correctly rather than ABM, where you can just sit there and nerf an entire squad. Let me make a Version of this where it isn't just completely shutting down an ability all together and a skill to use correctly.
Chewbacca "Rebel Prisoner"
You can put somthing like this on him
"Mouse Droid Growl" - When this character ends his move, he may immedietly move all characters named mouse droids that are within 6 up to 6. Mouse droids within 6 gain MINIATURE STATUS.
That would make it a tough skill to use. And it wouldn't be free cheap reinforcements for the figure you HATE.

The thing is, you shouldn't have to play Rebels in order to ignore mouse walls. The figure HAS to be Fringe, IMHO. And why is it so bad for the piece to come in via Lobot? Any squad that doesn't use Lobot will just mainline Lucas and be doing just as well. [Regardless, the George Lucas that I posted is likely not going to be present in a future V-Set anyway.]


I only said, it was a problem to bring in with lobot because that was Audri's #1 NPE. It just seemed weird to me that she would start a thread about NPE's and list Lobot as her #1, and then turn around with an idea that would be prime for lobot reinforcements.
I also agree with Danial about disruptive and ABM so I was just trying to think of an idea that could accomplish what you were thinking and still keep people like Danial and I happy.
Yes, it should be on a fringe piece, which I realized my mistake after I posted it and was just hoping that no one caught it. But come on you have to at least admit that chewy would be a perfect character to create an ability for that would nerf mouse droids.


To be honest I was just kicking around an idea at the office when I made that post so I didn't think out the figure to the fullest of tournament play. However if you did bring in this figure in bulk by lobot at least it only a defense of 10 and can not attack well, nor does it have any abilities to hose my squad. If anything it gives you some activation control. 4 dud pieces at 5pts to hose mouse droids that I only use to relay orders anyway would not bother me in the slightest if brought in by Lobot..

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 Post subject: Re: A survey of NPE's (Negative Play Experiences)
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 8:01 am 
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thereisnotry wrote:
1. Players who complain incessantly about anything that doesn't go their way. (dice, matchups, certain pieces)


+1

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 Post subject: Re: A survey of NPE's (Negative Play Experiences)
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 9:13 am 
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My NPE's usually have nothing to do with minis & maps.
(they're legal, so deal with 'em, IMHO)
What karks me off is lack of sportsmenship.
Even in competitive games, I play to have fun.
(it's still a game after all)
During the championship at Gen Con, I never thought " I need to win this game"
IMHO, players of any game that must win.
use the win to boost a low self-esteem. back to topic........

my top NPE:
-cheering/applauding an opponents die fails
-ssllooww ppllaayy , including
1] taking to long to pre-measure lines of sight
2] not being familiar with your squad
3] taking to long to activate pieces, after your opponent is completly done(tapped)
4] complaining to the judge after the game is over
-players that often complain about the dice
1]dice can & will affect the game
2] stateing that an opponent only won because they were lucky
a] "in my experiance, there is no such thing as luck"-OWK

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 Post subject: Re: A survey of NPE's (Negative Play Experiences)
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 4:34 pm 
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audrisampson wrote:
sthlrd2 wrote:
thereisnotry wrote:
sthlrd2 wrote:
Well Audri, rather than say +1 to this or Trevor's idea of George Lucas. Let me just point out the flaw in this idea. This would be prime Lobot reinforcements for only 2 or 5 pnts and as I remember in your first post that Lobot is your #1 NPE.

And as Danial was saying about Disruptive vs ABM, that Disruptive was good and a skill to use correctly rather than ABM, where you can just sit there and nerf an entire squad. Let me make a Version of this where it isn't just completely shutting down an ability all together and a skill to use correctly.
Chewbacca "Rebel Prisoner"
You can put somthing like this on him
"Mouse Droid Growl" - When this character ends his move, he may immedietly move all characters named mouse droids that are within 6 up to 6. Mouse droids within 6 gain MINIATURE STATUS.
That would make it a tough skill to use. And it wouldn't be free cheap reinforcements for the figure you HATE.

The thing is, you shouldn't have to play Rebels in order to ignore mouse walls. The figure HAS to be Fringe, IMHO. And why is it so bad for the piece to come in via Lobot? Any squad that doesn't use Lobot will just mainline Lucas and be doing just as well. [Regardless, the George Lucas that I posted is likely not going to be present in a future V-Set anyway.]


I only said, it was a problem to bring in with lobot because that was Audri's #1 NPE. It just seemed weird to me that she would start a thread about NPE's and list Lobot as her #1, and then turn around with an idea that would be prime for lobot reinforcements.
I also agree with Danial about disruptive and ABM so I was just trying to think of an idea that could accomplish what you were thinking and still keep people like Danial and I happy.
Yes, it should be on a fringe piece, which I realized my mistake after I posted it and was just hoping that no one caught it. But come on you have to at least admit that chewy would be a perfect character to create an ability for that would nerf mouse droids.


To be honest I was just kicking around an idea at the office when I made that post so I didn't think out the figure to the fullest of tournament play. However if you did bring in this figure in bulk by lobot at least it only a defense of 10 and can not attack well, nor does it have any abilities to hose my squad. If anything it gives you some activation control. 4 dud pieces at 5pts to hose mouse droids that I only use to relay orders anyway would not bother me in the slightest if brought in by Lobot..


You only need to bring in one. The rest of the points can be used to bring in other "hate" to my squad. You can bring in one and stick em in the back with Bastilla or whatever other commander/piece your hiding cause your ability is board wide, as long as he is on the map. IMO I think it needs to be like disruptive (wthn 6) rather than just nerf the whole board.

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 Post subject: Re: A survey of NPE's (Negative Play Experiences)
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 6:24 pm 
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The thing is, if the effect doesn't cover the whole board, you might as well not use the piece, because it'll get shot up before it gets to do anything. The whole point of the piece is to end mouse walls once and for all.

It's Fringe so that anyone can use it, and it's cheap so that it's easy to fit in with Lobot's Reinforcements...
...which means that Mouse Walls will be useless against anyone who has Lobot in their squad...
...therefore it will become so counter-productive to mainline Gha or Mice for anything other than activation fodder (which they'll still be good for)...
...and the mouse wall tactic will pass into obscurity. 8-)

It's boardwide or it's useless. Besides, it's a bit of a funny-flavor piece anyway. And besides that, I can't see it ever getting made...not as George Lucas, anyway! :D [Maybe Aunt Beru? lol]

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 Post subject: Re: A survey of NPE's (Negative Play Experiences)
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:02 pm 
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Re:
Mouse Wall

Holographic Tactical System
Cost 8
Fringe
Size Large (RM: Bacta Tank)
HP 10
Def 12
Atk -
Damage -
SA
Emplacement
Tactical Display: Replace turn; Characters with a small base size do not offer cover or affect targeting until this character's next turn or until it is defeated.

Just tossing out an idea.


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 Post subject: Re: A survey of NPE's (Negative Play Experiences)
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:03 pm 
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Double post
Oops!
Sorry


Last edited by Markedman247 on Mon Sep 10, 2012 10:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: A survey of NPE's (Negative Play Experiences)
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 9:42 pm 
Imperial Dignitaries
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The thing is, a mouse-wall-counter needs to be easy to include in your squad. If it's more expensive than a typical fodder piece, then it won't fulfill its purpose because it won't fit into squads. The way that mouse-walls are most often used is via Lobot: people recognize a certain tactical situation and bring in 6 mice (or 10, if they planned that way) to serve as blockers.

Just the other day, I brought some mice to slow down a powerful Vong squad, and those stinkin' mice won me the game because they gave Rex enough time to do enough damage to make a difference. I brought those mice because I knew the wall would be effective. But if my opponent had Lobot and I knew he could bring in a 2 or 3pt piece which would entirely nerf my mice, then I would've never even considered the mice in the first place. It's all about "threatening" the mouse wall out of competition: if the threat of mice-neutralization is strong enough and present enough and easy enough to bring, the mice will just stop showing up. If the mouse-wall counter costs you 1/3 or 1/2 of your reinforcement options, then it won't work very well at all.

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 Post subject: Re: A survey of NPE's (Negative Play Experiences)
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 9:48 pm 
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thereisnotry wrote:
The thing is, a mouse-wall-counter needs to be easy to include in your squad.



Kinda like Momow Nadon!

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 11:17 pm 
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thereisnotry wrote:

Just the other day, I brought some mice to slow down a powerful Vong squad, and those stinkin' mice won me the game because they gave Rex enough time to do enough damage to make a difference. I brought those mice because I knew the wall would be effective. But if my opponent had Lobot and I knew he could bring in a 2 or 3pt piece which would entirely nerf my mice, then I would've never even considered the mice in the first place. It's all about "threatening" the mouse wall out of competition: if the threat of mice-neutralization is strong enough and present enough and easy enough to bring, the mice will just stop showing up. If the mouse-wall counter costs you 1/3 or 1/2 of your reinforcement options, then it won't work very well at all.


+1000

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 7:28 am 
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For what it's worth, I'm completely against these kind of "silver bullet" fixes, and will do my best to prevent them from being designed in future V-sets. We should create other more useful ways to counter strategies that we don't want to see. Abilities like Bribery, We Don't Serve Their Kind Here, Galloping Attack, Strafe Attack, and War Throat keep big swarms of Mouse Droids in check while not being an inelegant silver bullet. Those are the kinds of things we should do if we see undesirable things in the meta. We want to just put our thumb on the scale of the meta.

But really, is it that big of a deal now? At GenCon this year I can only remember a single squad even playing Lobot + Gha or who played 10 Mouse Droids. I played against it once in 6 rounds. Yeah, it hurt me a lot when he played it, but it seems to me to be really uncommon. How many people at GenCon actually played that combo and dropped the 10 Mouse Droids? I don't think it was very many.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:27 am 
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I dropped 6 mice several times (mice are immune to thought bomb).

I don't think we need a silver bullet to change the meta. I do think we could consider a silver bullet to fix a mistake that WotC never should've allowed in the first place (mouse droids without Diminutive).

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 10:31 am 
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Echo wrote:
For what it's worth, I'm completely against these kind of "silver bullet" fixes, and will do my best to prevent them from being designed in future V-sets. We should create other more useful ways to counter strategies that we don't want to see. Abilities like Bribery, We Don't Serve Their Kind Here, Galloping Attack, Strafe Attack, and War Throat keep big swarms of Mouse Droids in check while not being an inelegant silver bullet. Those are the kinds of things we should do if we see undesirable things in the meta. We want to just put our thumb on the scale of the meta.

But really, is it that big of a deal now? At GenCon this year I can only remember a single squad even playing Lobot + Gha or who played 10 Mouse Droids. I played against it once in 6 rounds. Yeah, it hurt me a lot when he played it, but it seems to me to be really uncommon. How many people at GenCon actually played that combo and dropped the 10 Mouse Droids? I don't think it was very many.


Well I didn't play in the Championship but Greg did it to me with his Solo Charge during Mystery map. Also at four regionals it happened at least once to me at every regional. In Kokomo whenever a person had Lobot I was seeing MDs every time. Also at Kokomo I know SvenBlackSunVigo did it nearly every round for additional activation control. In my case maybe its just the squads I tend to play or something...

I played decipher Star Trek so I know how freaking annoying a direct hose figure or card can be however it does not seem that the counters we have are not working all that well.

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Winning a tournament always allows doing whatever is within the rules to win. - Billiv15


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