logo

All times are UTC - 6 hours

Mark forums read


Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 151 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next

Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: Re: A survey of NPE's (Negative Play Experiences)
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 8:58 am 
Warmaster
Warmaster
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2008 2:35 pm
Posts: 677
Location: Danville IL
Echo wrote:
audrisampson wrote:
So let me get this straight Echo... Since something doesn't effect you and some other HOFers at the upper level tables of GenCon it becomes irrevelant, antiquated and not worth looking into??? Im sorry but that is what I get from your post.



One other thing I just thought of about this part: I got 21st at GenCon this year, putting me well into the bottom half. I was playing a squad that got hurt quite a bit by Mouse Walls. So yeah, this year at GenCon Mouse Droids did heavily effect me (although I only really saw them once, in the last round), and despite being a HoFer I wasn't AT the upper level tables to GenCon. So you are misinterpreting my entire point of view on the subject.


Well I apologize for that. The mouse wall situation has been something has frusterated me about the game since it started happening. So reading what I feel like was you attempting to push the issue a bit under the rug when it seems to finally be getting some traction against it just really set me off this morning. So again I apologize, I probably should not have put that first paragraph in my post.

_________________
Winning a tournament always allows doing whatever is within the rules to win. - Billiv15


[===0=]=============>


Sentinel for Life!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: A survey of NPE's (Negative Play Experiences)
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 9:01 am 
Death Star Designers
Death Star Designers
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 9:45 pm
Posts: 3886
Here's the thing. On my side, such an errata will not happen. Period. WOTC stuff will remain as is. I am not altering anything in the glossary or FAQ that Nickname wrote. Was the Mouse Droid a mistake, who only Rob Watkins knows. If it is another floor rules errata, that would be Brad's department. When Zannah was getting QC'ed, it was asked what the wording of SSM should be on the card. Both Nickname and I said it should be what is on GOWK and Flobi's card. Because the floor rules is not the end all, be all rules of this game. I'm willing to bet not everyone uses them.

And I keep seeing the arguements that it makes no sense for such a small Droid to provide cover. Well, welcome to this game. Do you know how many calls for errata I've seen for stuff that "doesn't make sense"? Far too many, and they all receive the same answer: tough, deal with it.

_________________
Bloomilk Ambassador


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: A survey of NPE's (Negative Play Experiences)
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 9:05 am 
Death Star Designers
Death Star Designers
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2009 8:57 pm
Posts: 3504
audrisampson wrote:
Echo wrote:
audrisampson wrote:
So let me get this straight Echo... Since something doesn't effect you and some other HOFers at the upper level tables of GenCon it becomes irrevelant, antiquated and not worth looking into??? Im sorry but that is what I get from your post.



One other thing I just thought of about this part: I got 21st at GenCon this year, putting me well into the bottom half. I was playing a squad that got hurt quite a bit by Mouse Walls. So yeah, this year at GenCon Mouse Droids did heavily effect me (although I only really saw them once, in the last round), and despite being a HoFer I wasn't AT the upper level tables to GenCon. So you are misinterpreting my entire point of view on the subject.


Well I apologize for that. The mouse wall situation has been something has frusterated me about the game since it started happening. So reading what I feel like was you attempting to push the issue a bit under the rug when it seems to finally be getting some traction against it just really set me off this morning. So again I apologize, I probably should not have put that first paragraph in my post.


No worries. :)

See, it's not that I'm trying to push it under the rug. It's that I disagree that it's a problem in the first place. Trust me, I empathize with your position (freaking Lancer and Yobuck and big movement breaking and gaah), but it's important to understand that you being frustrated about something is not a reason to change something. It's something that I've actually gotten a much better handle on myself since I've become a designer; your personal views on a particular piece or strategy or whatever is not necessarily representative of the truth of the game, or everyone else's views. What you hate might be something somebody else likes, and what you love might be something somebody else hates.

I don't think Mouse Droids are a serious problem in the game. Therefore, I will be opposed to any sweeping changes to nerf them (silver bullet pieces or errata). Counters are totally fine and I even now have an idea of a strong counter to create (I'm heading to the design forums after this to try to hash it out...), but that's it.

_________________
"An elegant, easy-to-understand concept or mechanic that accomplishes 95% of what you want is much better than a clunky, obtuse mechanic that gets you 100%" - Rob Daviau

"You can't per aspera ad astra unless there's some aspera in front of your astra. And that means sometimes the aspera gets you." - Donald X. Vaccarino


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: A survey of NPE's (Negative Play Experiences)
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 9:12 am 
Warmaster
Warmaster
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2008 2:35 pm
Posts: 677
Location: Danville IL
Echo wrote:
audrisampson wrote:
Echo wrote:
audrisampson wrote:
So let me get this straight Echo... Since something doesn't effect you and some other HOFers at the upper level tables of GenCon it becomes irrevelant, antiquated and not worth looking into??? Im sorry but that is what I get from your post.



One other thing I just thought of about this part: I got 21st at GenCon this year, putting me well into the bottom half. I was playing a squad that got hurt quite a bit by Mouse Walls. So yeah, this year at GenCon Mouse Droids did heavily effect me (although I only really saw them once, in the last round), and despite being a HoFer I wasn't AT the upper level tables to GenCon. So you are misinterpreting my entire point of view on the subject.


Well I apologize for that. The mouse wall situation has been something has frusterated me about the game since it started happening. So reading what I feel like was you attempting to push the issue a bit under the rug when it seems to finally be getting some traction against it just really set me off this morning. So again I apologize, I probably should not have put that first paragraph in my post.


No worries. :)

See, it's not that I'm trying to push it under the rug. It's that I disagree that it's a problem in the first place. Trust me, I empathize with your position (freaking Lancer and Yobuck and big movement breaking and gaah), but it's important to understand that you being frustrated about something is not a reason to change something. It's something that I've actually gotten a much better handle on myself since I've become a designer; your personal views on a particular piece or strategy or whatever is not necessarily representative of the truth of the game, or everyone else's views. What you hate might be something somebody else likes, and what you love might be something somebody else hates.

I don't think Mouse Droids are a serious problem in the game. Therefore, I will be opposed to any sweeping changes to nerf them (silver bullet pieces or errata). Counters are totally fine and I even now have an idea of a strong counter to create (I'm heading to the design forums after this to try to hash it out...), but that's it.


Honestly you guys are probably right. I am being a total scrub today . Im just thinking back to a rather dissapointing regional season where I did lose a couple of key matches to Mouse dump. So I guess I was throwing a bit of a temper tantrum. Sorry to everyone.

_________________
Winning a tournament always allows doing whatever is within the rules to win. - Billiv15


[===0=]=============>


Sentinel for Life!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: A survey of NPE's (Negative Play Experiences)
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:13 am 
Hall of Fame Member
Hall of Fame Member
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 7:22 pm
Posts: 4982
Sithborg wrote:
Was the Mouse Droid a mistake, who only Rob Watkins knows.


Was the mouse even designed by Rob?

Anyway, i don't believe any of these NPEs really break the game or are in need of errata.

Many things in this game have been odd since day one (IMO - adjacent lightsabers should always be a melee attack, door gimmick should have opened overridden doors, small figures should not have provided cover etc etc) but it hasn't affected the game to any huge degree.

The game is too far gone and too complicated to start making changes and errata; even some of the more obnoxious V-set pieces are not game breaking, just a little stupid with their stats.

I don't think GOWK will win next year but perhaps is he does these issues can be addressed.

There is an answer to all these NPEs (as far as pieces go) if you choose to build them, sometimes it just takes stepping out of your comfort zone of squad building.

_________________
Image
Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: A survey of NPE's (Negative Play Experiences)
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:27 am 
Death Star Designers
Death Star Designers
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 9:45 pm
Posts: 3886
As far as we know, Rob was still around for GAW and did a little Dark Times.

_________________
Bloomilk Ambassador


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: A survey of NPE's (Negative Play Experiences)
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 11:07 am 
Master of the Order
Master of the Order
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 8:01 pm
Posts: 6662
Location: Chicago, IL
Echo wrote:
your personal views on a particular piece or strategy or whatever is not necessarily representative of the truth of the game, or everyone else's views. What you hate might be something somebody else likes, and what you love might be something somebody else hates.


I heard so much moaning about GOWK/Mace that I was sure most people hated them. It appears I was wrong. Many more people are vocal anti-mouse-walls than are anti-GOWK/Mace. I still think to me it feels like an incompetent Neanderthal could win sometimes with Mace/Gowk and a few lucky roles. But obviously very GOOD players can capitalize on those pieces and do VERY VERY WELL. And not only that - but it appears that it's not just something that is annoying but too good to overlook playing in the right circumstance (like mouse walls), but it's FUN for people. This completely baffles me, as it just feels like running to the middle and flipping a bunch of coins hoping for heads. I have played in (in play testing), and played against it (in playtesting, winning and losing, and in competition only ever winning), and never once has it been fun for me. How anyone could ever consider playing that combo or against it FUN is beyond me. That being said - I have to admit that I am in the minority. People can try and explain to me until they are blue in the face, but I just don't get it. That's not the minis I know and love. That's not the intense skill battle of outwitting your opponent through squad building and gameplay to me. The majority apparently disagrees.


Audri - for what it's worth most people are with you on mouse walls being an NPE from what I can see. Most everyone dislikes it and thinks it doesn't make sense (even those that use it). I disagree with Daniel that it is just a vocal minority. It IS a majority.

BUT - And this is important: Even if many people dislike it, apparently erratas are disliked even more. This is something I have learned very well over the past few weeks. People want to forget the fact that GOWK was ever errata'd in the first place (thus the change back). Everyone seems angry that it was even brought up again ("this argument
is 4 years old, get over it"), completely ignoring the fact that when it was changed back, it would be closely watched and discussed after we see what it does. I've gotten a lot of hate for bringing up a topic that was on the slate to be talked about no matter what, simply because it might involve reverting to a former floor rule. And that's clearly was less of a big deal than an errata.

There is a lot of inherent pride in the SWM world about the fact that (GOWK aside) there's virtually never been a card banned or a nerf errata. And if we're not going to fix OTHER people's mistakes (WotC's), then we certainly aren't going to fix our own (v-set), or even admit that there are any.

That's how it works in SWM. That is the majority line of thinking. No erratas, make a new figure with a counter ability. Sure that figure won't see the light of day for over a year, and by then the Meta will have changed, but eventually that issue won't be a big problem anymore.

My big pet peeve in SWM is a dramatic increase in abilities where luck can make a GIANT swing. I was a big lancer player, and lancers got hated on pretty major. Fine with me, I was kinda over playing them. This year I won a regional with Imps again, and for good measure I won the first regionals ever with Sith and Vong. I like playing stuff I like, sure - but I LOVE coming up with fun new stuff that does well too. Finding that combo that works is so satisfying. A Sith squad I built made it to the GenCon top 8 for the first time ever (unfortunately it wasn't piloted by me), and that was satisfying.

The game I know and love is one where if you build the right squad, and play it well, you will win 90% of the time. Is that changing? We will see. I think it is heading that way.

My only recourse is to try and stay vigilant as a part of the playtest committee, and not let the ridiculous silliness like new v-set NR Mara, V-set Mace, and others happen again.

I will say that I am REALLY excited about v-set 5. It is shaping up to be the best set yet. I have been some small part of all the v-set sets (playtesting, design suggestions, creator of new abilities, etc), but I feel like this set is sending us in a wonderful direction, without fanboy and/or luck garbage.

There will always be NPEs, but it's my hope that we minimize them. I really feel that the team we have now is vigilant not to let another "covert ops training" slip through the cracks.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: A survey of NPE's (Negative Play Experiences)
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 12:26 pm 
Major Tierce
Major Tierce

Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2007 11:21 pm
Posts: 3204
I'm still not sure why the major dislike for "covert ops training".

It is 100% the opposite of energy shield. How much play did the Gungan see during the last 4 years when shooters have dominted? Virtually none except this past gencon. How much do I expect the Clone trooper to see play? None except in a few select local metas and maybe in 500 pt epic. The Mando will see some play due to his other abilities but surely nor for his covert ops training.

The problem is it is too heavy of an investment (over 10% of your squad) just on the off chance you see a melee heavy squad. If you are against any type of shooter squad he is a waste of 22 pts. Because if I am shooting you either (A) I can easily kill that guy from a distance or (B) if he isn't up there then its like your are playing with a 178 pt squad. I like those odds.

Now if it was on a beatstick (Vader, Sith dude, etc) then yeah it might be a problem.

Let's look at the T8 squads and what it does against them
Mace/GOWK -- o wait this actually helps keep Mace in check as he doesn't always just come to put 60 on yer dude.
Yobuck -- keeps Yobuck somewhat in check here as well at least until it dies
Naboo -- doesn't do anything to them because they either want to run and base you (pilots) or shoot you from afar (troopers)
Mace/GOWK -- same as above
OR Beef with atton -- hurts them slightly as they don't get to hit always but the free attack from the senator is enough to kill the clone
OR handmaidens -- They shoot you from a distance so it doesn't change them
Kaan Bomb -- I guess this could slow revan from running in and hitting, but doesn't stop Kaan from blowing up or Jaq
NR -- Han should be able to kill this guy from afar but doesn't stop the levitate in and attack. Does hurt it if you use Mara.

Other Notable squads
Stealth and Blue -- Shooty squad so doesn't really change much
Lancer -- slows the lancer down for sure
2010 Rebs -- nothing as Han just kills stuff
HK IG86 swarm -- nothing as it just shoots stuff

I playtested this guy plenty as I had similar concerns. What I found was that in most games the ability just didn't matter and I would have rather had another attacker (Rep Commando/JWM/Foul/anybody).

Only time will tell where this ability truly falls.

_________________
When I left you I was but the learner . . . now I am the master.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: A survey of NPE's (Negative Play Experiences)
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:03 pm 
Master of the Order
Master of the Order
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 1:08 pm
Posts: 8394
TimmerB123 wrote:
Echo wrote:
your personal views on a particular piece or strategy or whatever is not necessarily representative of the truth of the game, or everyone else's views. What you hate might be something somebody else likes, and what you love might be something somebody else hates.


I heard so much moaning about GOWK/Mace that I was sure most people hated them. It appears I was wrong. Many more people are vocal anti-mouse-walls than are anti-GOWK/Mace. I still think to me it feels like an incompetent Neanderthal could win sometimes with Mace/Gowk and a few lucky roles. But obviously very GOOD players can capitalize on those pieces and do VERY VERY WELL. And not only that - but it appears that it's not just something that is annoying but too good to overlook playing in the right circumstance (like mouse walls), but it's FUN for people. This completely baffles me, as it just feels like running to the middle and flipping a bunch of coins hoping for heads. I have played in (in play testing), and played against it (in playtesting, winning and losing, and in competition only ever winning), and never once has it been fun for me. How anyone could ever consider playing that combo or against it FUN is beyond me. That being said - I have to admit that I am in the minority. People can try and explain to me until they are blue in the face, but I just don't get it. That's not the minis I know and love. That's not the intense skill battle of outwitting your opponent through squad building and gameplay to me. The majority apparently disagrees.


Audri - for what it's worth most people are with you on mouse walls being an NPE from what I can see. Most everyone dislikes it and thinks it doesn't make sense (even those that use it). I disagree with Daniel that it is just a vocal minority. It IS a majority.

BUT - And this is important: Even if many people dislike it, apparently erratas are disliked even more. This is something I have learned very well over the past few weeks. People want to forget the fact that GOWK was ever errata'd in the first place (thus the change back). Everyone seems angry that it was even brought up again ("this argument
is 4 years old, get over it"), completely ignoring the fact that when it was changed back, it would be closely watched and discussed after we see what it does. I've gotten a lot of hate for bringing up a topic that was on the slate to be talked about no matter what, simply because it might involve reverting to a former floor rule. And that's clearly was less of a big deal than an errata.

There is a lot of inherent pride in the SWM world about the fact that (GOWK aside) there's virtually never been a card banned or a nerf errata. And if we're not going to fix OTHER people's mistakes (WotC's), then we certainly aren't going to fix our own (v-set), or even admit that there are any.

That's how it works in SWM. That is the majority line of thinking. No erratas, make a new figure with a counter ability. Sure that figure won't see the light of day for over a year, and by then the Meta will have changed, but eventually that issue won't be a big problem anymore.

My big pet peeve in SWM is a dramatic increase in abilities where luck can make a GIANT swing. I was a big lancer player, and lancers got hated on pretty major. Fine with me, I was kinda over playing them. This year I won a regional with Imps again, and for good measure I won the first regionals ever with Sith and Vong. I like playing stuff I like, sure - but I LOVE coming up with fun new stuff that does well too. Finding that combo that works is so satisfying. A Sith squad I built made it to the GenCon top 8 for the first time ever (unfortunately it wasn't piloted by me), and that was satisfying.

The game I know and love is one where if you build the right squad, and play it well, you will win 90% of the time. Is that changing? We will see. I think it is heading that way.

My only recourse is to try and stay vigilant as a part of the playtest committee, and not let the ridiculous silliness like new v-set NR Mara, V-set Mace, and others happen again.

I will say that I am REALLY excited about v-set 5. It is shaping up to be the best set yet. I have been some small part of all the v-set sets (playtesting, design suggestions, creator of new abilities, etc), but I feel like this set is sending us in a wonderful direction, without fanboy and/or luck garbage.

There will always be NPEs, but it's my hope that we minimize them. I really feel that the team we have now is vigilant not to let another "covert ops training" slip through the cracks.


I agree that there are good things about v-set 5 (I haven't followed it enough to say if it is the "best set yet"), but the rest of your post just about made me fall out of the chair because I was laughing so hard. If you hate luck-based pieces so much that you feel justified in creating rage threads and you were actually involved in playtesting or design suggestions, then where were you when those pieces were designed? Just because you hate them doesn't mean they are bad for the game - in fact, luck-based pieces have ALWAYS been a part of the game. (See: Grenades)

Your statement about a Neanderthal doing well with GOWK/Mace could be applied to a plethora of other figures that rely on luck to win. I built a Cade Skywalker/Boba BH/Bothan Noble/Dodonna team that just tore up my opponents because it let me heal all the damage Boba took during each round and then allowed him to just keep on rolling attacks until the big D came up. To beat it, you HAD to kill Boba on one phase. Not round, PHASE. And this was long before the v-sets. So to act like the luck-based options we created are "fanboy garbage" is just nonsense. There has been a desire for a long time for a Jedi that was feared. Now there is one, and it's okay if some people don't like it. There are elements to any game that some people like while other people don't. As long as we all have things we like in the game, it's okay.

You're really going to hate this statement, but there will continue to be luck-based elements created in future sets. Because it's a continuation of what Rob began when he made the game. And because people like it. Not you, perhaps, but that's not enough of a reason not to do it. Even V-set 5 introduces new luck based abilities, or twists on existing ones.

Lastly, Covert Ops Training didn't "slip through the cracks." It got the most attention of just about anything we came up with (only the new Yoda probably got more attention than COT).

_________________
Click here to check out all the people who have realized the truth. Someday you will, too.

"I would really, really like to not have anything else happen at the end of the round other than things just ending." -- Sithborg


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: A survey of NPE's (Negative Play Experiences)
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:12 pm 
Unnamed Wookiee
Unnamed Wookiee

Joined: Mon Feb 01, 2010 12:36 pm
Posts: 33
I like Mace and GOWK. Mainly because they feel like Jedi. They do what Jedi should do. Mace stands toe-to-toe with a Sith lord, and cuts down enemies in short order. GOWK leads from the front and is able to play tank for his shooter followers. Imo Atris is a NPE. (Even though I play her.) A fringe piece with her stats at 41 points would see some play. But to give her a great commander effect and a force power that pumps your troops while nerfing your opponet boardwide is a little much. IMO she should have been OR/Sith not fringe. Even without a battery she can sit in the back, behind closed doors and hurt your opponet for 5 rounds. Even squads with great movement breakers cannot easily make it down field, blow open the door, and attack to turn off the meditation. Even if they do, they attack at -4.

All this goes for Bastilla Too.

For Mace to be usefull he has to make it down field. Not Bastilla and Atris. They can sit behind a locked door and give all your troops +4/+10 while simultaneously removing all opposing commander effects and making attacks against you -4 for the majority of the game.

I played against 2 OR squads in 500 Epic at GenCon. 75% of the 2 squads were identicle. For 74 points that never had to leave the starting area they shut down most of my squad, and I spent most of the game watching someone else play. This was 3 hours of my life I will never get back, playing a game that was not fun.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: A survey of NPE's (Negative Play Experiences)
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:39 pm 
Master of the Order
Master of the Order
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 8:01 pm
Posts: 6662
Location: Chicago, IL
urbanjedi wrote:
I'm still not sure why the major dislike for "covert ops training".

It is 100% the opposite of energy shield. How much play did the Gungan see during the last 4 years when shooters have dominted? Virtually none except this past gencon. How much do I expect the Clone trooper to see play? None except in a few select local metas and maybe in 500 pt epic. The Mando will see some play due to his other abilities but surely nor for his covert ops training.

The problem is it is too heavy of an investment (over 10% of your squad) just on the off chance you see a melee heavy squad. If you are against any type of shooter squad he is a waste of 22 pts. Because if I am shooting you either (A) I can easily kill that guy from a distance or (B) if he isn't up there then its like your are playing with a 178 pt squad. I like those odds.

Now if it was on a beatstick (Vader, Sith dude, etc) then yeah it might be a problem.

Let's look at the T8 squads and what it does against them
Mace/GOWK -- o wait this actually helps keep Mace in check as he doesn't always just come to put 60 on yer dude.
Yobuck -- keeps Yobuck somewhat in check here as well at least until it dies
Naboo -- doesn't do anything to them because they either want to run and base you (pilots) or shoot you from afar (troopers)
Mace/GOWK -- same as above
OR Beef with atton -- hurts them slightly as they don't get to hit always but the free attack from the senator is enough to kill the clone
OR handmaidens -- They shoot you from a distance so it doesn't change them
Kaan Bomb -- I guess this could slow revan from running in and hitting, but doesn't stop Kaan from blowing up or Jaq
NR -- Han should be able to kill this guy from afar but doesn't stop the levitate in and attack. Does hurt it if you use Mara.

Other Notable squads
Stealth and Blue -- Shooty squad so doesn't really change much
Lancer -- slows the lancer down for sure
2010 Rebs -- nothing as Han just kills stuff
HK IG86 swarm -- nothing as it just shoots stuff

I playtested this guy plenty as I had similar concerns. What I found was that in most games the ability just didn't matter and I would have rather had another attacker (Rep Commando/JWM/Foul/anybody).

Only time will tell where this ability truly falls.


The thing that keeps being missed here is this: NPE does not necessarily mean top tier.

It creates something that is not fun. Not the same as it dominating the top.

Let me put it a different way - Jar Jar Binks. He is SO annoying to play. Is he Meta? No. Is he game breaking? No. But that doesn't mean that he can't still make a game not fun.

I think that is the issue. Covert Ops Training has had such an instant negative reaction not because it is game breaking or top tier, but because it was an unnecessary ability that hurts what it was intended to hurt much less than other things that need not be hurt (ie single attacking melee). So my lancer only hits half of it's targets? Well that hurts a little, but my lancer is still pretty effective. So Mace has to roll before each of his triple attack? Well he has MotF 2 and renewal 2, so he will probably make most of his saves. A melee swarm squad? Screwed (needlessly). Single attacking Jedi? Screwed (needlessly). It could have been tweaked easily into a much better ability (ie make the save roll after every attack AFTER the first attack that turn). My hope is that it simply won't be played much. I think that will be the case.

Jason - you'll get this - It's kinda like Jedi Reflexes. All things considered, it SHOULD have been what Force-attuned reflexes is now all along, because it hurts so many other things unintentionally.

I wish I was more involved with V-sets 2 and 4. In my opinion that's where many of the problems lie. I only play-tested certain figures in those sets, and I was as surprised as most people when it was released to see certain stat sets. But that's just my opinion. Others point elsewhere to what they think are problems. Regardless, that's not what this thread is about.

I keep hearing arguments about how something isn't an NPE because it isn't top tier and it can be beaten. That's not what NPE is. NPE makes a game not fun. And it has nothing to do with how strong it is necessarily.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: A survey of NPE's (Negative Play Experiences)
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:18 pm 
Master of the Order
Master of the Order
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 1:08 pm
Posts: 8394
TimmerB123 wrote:
Jason - you'll get this - It's kinda like Jedi Reflexes. All things considered, it SHOULD have been what Force-attuned reflexes is now all along, because it hurts so many other things unintentionally.


No, it doesn't. The fallacy in this statement is the presumption of intent. The statement presumes that Jedi Reflexes was meant for a specific purpose and that there were unintended side effects. Actually, it does exactly what it was meant to. At the time it was proposed, a common tactic was to use less important figures (ie Mouse Droids) to base enemies so that they couldn't reach the key enemy figures). Along with all the other great things JR does, this was also a nerf to that tactic. And it's very easy to play around it, as has been demonstrated - otherwise the few pieces that have it would be dominating.

I do agree that Force-Attuned Reflexes is solid, but not to the point that it's what JR should have been. The abilities are different enough that there is room for both in the game IMO.

Quote:
I wish I was more involved with V-sets 2 and 4. In my opinion that's where many of the problems lie. I only play-tested certain figures in those sets, and I was as surprised as most people when it was released to see certain stat sets. But that's just my opinion. Others point elsewhere to what they think are problems. Regardless, that's not what this thread is about.


Again, problems to you. Not everyone sees the pieces as "problems" the way you do. The pieces you dislike are part of a form of strategy that doesn't appeal to you. It doesn't make them "problems."

Quote:
I keep hearing arguments about how something isn't an NPE because it isn't top tier and it can be beaten. That's not what NPE is. NPE makes a game not fun. And it has nothing to do with how strong it is necessarily.


This part I actually agree with.

_________________
Click here to check out all the people who have realized the truth. Someday you will, too.

"I would really, really like to not have anything else happen at the end of the round other than things just ending." -- Sithborg


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: A survey of NPE's (Negative Play Experiences)
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:19 pm 
Imperial Dignitaries
Imperial Dignitaries
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 12:42 pm
Posts: 3599
Location: New Jersey
TimmerB123 wrote:
I keep hearing arguments about how something isn't an NPE because it isn't top tier and it can be beaten. That's not what NPE is. NPE makes a game not fun. And it has nothing to do with how strong it is necessarily.

Well said.

I don't care that there are currently counters to pretty much every NPE...the problem is that they exist in the first place. The thing is, an NPE is by definition very subjective, so it's hard to really do something about it, other than by mutual agreement on a local scale.

_________________
"Don't give the tool more credit than the master." --Weeks
ImageImage


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: A survey of NPE's (Negative Play Experiences)
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:21 pm 
Master of the Order
Master of the Order
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 1:08 pm
Posts: 8394
thereisnotry wrote:
TimmerB123 wrote:
I keep hearing arguments about how something isn't an NPE because it isn't top tier and it can be beaten. That's not what NPE is. NPE makes a game not fun. And it has nothing to do with how strong it is necessarily.

Well said.

I don't care that there are currently counters to pretty much every NPE...the problem is that they exist in the first place. The thing is, an NPE is by definition very subjective, so it's hard to really do something about it, other than by mutual agreement on a local scale.


There are NPE's in any collectible game. It's just the nature of the beast.

_________________
Click here to check out all the people who have realized the truth. Someday you will, too.

"I would really, really like to not have anything else happen at the end of the round other than things just ending." -- Sithborg


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: A survey of NPE's (Negative Play Experiences)
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:27 pm 
Death Star Designers
Death Star Designers
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2009 8:57 pm
Posts: 3504
thereisnotry wrote:
I don't care that there are currently counters to pretty much every NPE...the problem is that they exist in the first place. The thing is, an NPE is by definition very subjective, so it's hard to really do something about it, other than by mutual agreement on a local scale.


Exactly true. What CAN be done, though, is just make sure there are counters out there. Not stupid hard counters like silver bullets, but elegant counters that make the game fun as a whole. For example, most people would probably say that Jar Jar is an NPE just because of all the really weird and nonsensical interactions. However, there are so many ways around Bombad Gungan and he is priced high enough that he rarely sees play, so it's no big deal. That NPE rarely if ever effects my game or my enjoyment thereof.

I also strongly agree that Covert Ops Training is an NPE. But at least the Clone with it is priced pretty much out of serious playability. I'm sure some people will still mess with him, but for that cost you just don't get much. So while that's an NPE that exists, the fact that it isn't good DOES make it less offensive. So it does matter a little whether an NPE is top tier or competitive or not; if an NPE is competitive it's more likely that it will be seen and therefore more likely to be out there to negatively effect people. If an NPE exists but just sits in the Bin of Eternal Darkness all the time, it's a little annoying that it's there, but much less so.

_________________
"An elegant, easy-to-understand concept or mechanic that accomplishes 95% of what you want is much better than a clunky, obtuse mechanic that gets you 100%" - Rob Daviau

"You can't per aspera ad astra unless there's some aspera in front of your astra. And that means sometimes the aspera gets you." - Donald X. Vaccarino


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: A survey of NPE's (Negative Play Experiences)
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:58 pm 
Master of the Order
Master of the Order
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 1:08 pm
Posts: 8394
Echo wrote:
thereisnotry wrote:
I don't care that there are currently counters to pretty much every NPE...the problem is that they exist in the first place. The thing is, an NPE is by definition very subjective, so it's hard to really do something about it, other than by mutual agreement on a local scale.


Exactly true. What CAN be done, though, is just make sure there are counters out there. Not stupid hard counters like silver bullets, but elegant counters that make the game fun as a whole. For example, most people would probably say that Jar Jar is an NPE just because of all the really weird and nonsensical interactions. However, there are so many ways around Bombad Gungan and he is priced high enough that he rarely sees play, so it's no big deal. That NPE rarely if ever effects my game or my enjoyment thereof.

I also strongly agree that Covert Ops Training is an NPE. But at least the Clone with it is priced pretty much out of serious playability. I'm sure some people will still mess with him, but for that cost you just don't get much. So while that's an NPE that exists, the fact that it isn't good DOES make it less offensive. So it does matter a little whether an NPE is top tier or competitive or not; if an NPE is competitive it's more likely that it will be seen and therefore more likely to be out there to negatively effect people. If an NPE exists but just sits in the Bin of Eternal Darkness all the time, it's a little annoying that it's there, but much less so.



It's the Eternal Bin of Darkness, but your point is taken. :P

_________________
Click here to check out all the people who have realized the truth. Someday you will, too.

"I would really, really like to not have anything else happen at the end of the round other than things just ending." -- Sithborg


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: A survey of NPE's (Negative Play Experiences)
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:59 pm 
Master of the Order
Master of the Order
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 8:01 pm
Posts: 6662
Location: Chicago, IL
Echo wrote:
thereisnotry wrote:
I don't care that there are currently counters to pretty much every NPE...the problem is that they exist in the first place. The thing is, an NPE is by definition very subjective, so it's hard to really do something about it, other than by mutual agreement on a local scale.


Exactly true. What CAN be done, though, is just make sure there are counters out there. Not stupid hard counters like silver bullets, but elegant counters that make the game fun as a whole. For example, most people would probably say that Jar Jar is an NPE just because of all the really weird and nonsensical interactions. However, there are so many ways around Bombad Gungan and he is priced high enough that he rarely sees play, so it's no big deal. That NPE rarely if ever effects my game or my enjoyment thereof.

I also strongly agree that Covert Ops Training is an NPE. But at least the Clone with it is priced pretty much out of serious playability. I'm sure some people will still mess with him, but for that cost you just don't get much. So while that's an NPE that exists, the fact that it isn't good DOES make it less offensive. So it does matter a little whether an NPE is top tier or competitive or not; if an NPE is competitive it's more likely that it will be seen and therefore more likely to be out there to negatively effect people. If an NPE exists but just sits in the Bin of Eternal Darkness all the time, it's a little annoying that it's there, but much less so.


I agree fully. Which is a big reason why GOWK/Mace chafes me so much. But like I've said, they aren't an NPE for many people.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: A survey of NPE's (Negative Play Experiences)
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:24 pm 
Death Star Designers
Death Star Designers
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 9:45 pm
Posts: 3886
I know my favorite Sith squads can be a horrible NPE when it goes correctly. And Sith Sorcery isn't an exact top tier squad.

_________________
Bloomilk Ambassador


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: A survey of NPE's (Negative Play Experiences)
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:02 pm 
Imperial Dignitaries
Imperial Dignitaries
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 12:42 pm
Posts: 3599
Location: New Jersey
Sithborg wrote:
I know my favorite Sith squads can be a horrible NPE when it goes correctly. And Sith Sorcery isn't an exact top tier squad.

Playing against your crazy Sith Sorcery squad wasn't an NPE for me at all...I enjoyed it quite a lot, actually! :) It was cool to me how a 4-activation squad could do so well against a much bigger squad, and come so close to winning. It was a cool experience.

_________________
"Don't give the tool more credit than the master." --Weeks
ImageImage


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: A survey of NPE's (Negative Play Experiences)
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:32 pm 
Third Jedi from the Left
Third Jedi from the Left
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2011 7:51 am
Posts: 134
Location: E-Town PA
To go back to what Tim said before (sorry, I don't have the time to quote it) but it basically it came down to him not enjoying GOWK/Mace squads, which is fine (Personally I can't stand the style he prefers so there ya go, different strokes, different folks. it's what keeps the game fresh), but I wanted to focus on this whole luck argument. IMO, "luck" isn't what makes tank squads work, it's betting on the even distribution of stats and realizing that even though GOWK has a printed hp stat of 120, it in reality ends up being closer to 240, (or even 500 with crazy rolls :D ). That isn't luck (well expect for that 500 thing). At the end of a tourney with a bunch of rounds GOWK has probably had one horrible game, one amazing game, and then a bunch of average ones.

The thing that makes tank squads fun for me is that I can rely on having a rough idea of the statistical chances of things, which allows the squad to "rush in" and do its thing. Can GOWK block a ton a damage, even more than he "should"? Sure, but how often does it happen? Same with Mace, can he deal 200 damage by getting 3 crits in a row and a flurry? Again, sure, but how often does it really happen? You just need to plan ahead and be prepared, even if if the chances seem low. To me, and I'm hoping i can phrase this right, it's the opposite of what you expect with a strong activation/tempo control swap squad where you rely on a beefed up piece to deal a ton of damage at the end of the round, and then win init. The chance that won't work is about the same chance that Mace will go crit crazy and defeat a piece with more than 120 hit points in a round. They both can happen, and while you don't count on it to happen, if you can properly prepare to survive either way then you greatly increase your chance of winning the game, and ultimately the tourney you're in.

So, my point at the end, plan against Mace just like you would plan on Cad Bane rolling a series of 1s and 2s. You may not want either to happen (depending on where you're sitting) but if you can handle it, then you increase your chance of doing well and recovering.

_________________
"Anything worth killing is worth over-killing" - Darph Nader


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 151 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours

Mark forums read

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
Jedi Knights style by Scott Stubblefield