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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 6:56 pm 
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thereisnotry wrote:
Personally, FWIW, I see no need for map rotation, though I wouldn't be dead-set against it either.


Meh. It's never been about need. It's about doing something more interesting.

Perhaps a refocus is needed by the community on this.

Some of you seem to be stuck in the old mind set that once banned, always banned, always crap. That actually isn't exactly what Brad was doing with this new list. I personally don't agree with Muunalist being removed, or Jedi Temple and I think the arguments against both are crap. I also personally believe Nightclub should have been on the list the last 2 years. But those points are not the issue.

These maps aren't "gone forever", they are the beginning of a rotational system with the maps. Please make sure you've adequately wrapped your head around that before you post any more "my favorite map is gone this is garbage" stuff.

Now to the idea that it should or shouldn't change July 1st. I am a full advocate for it changing after the regional season. You all are into using the sports analogies, so here's one for ya, Nascar. Biggest event of the year, starts the year off with whatever new rules they put in place.

But ultimately, that's the wrong way to even think this through. We are in no way playing a "season" at all. Well maybe Tim and the Atlanta guys get close, but come on people. This is nothing like a season. Regionals are meant to be both a fun "qualifying" event for one person for a gencon badge. But they are in no way connected other than in your heads to Gencon.

And finally we get to this. Brad has been given this power. He has repeatedly asked for help in the past, and not gotten it. In my book, this is his choice entirely, and no one else gets to say poop about it. He goes out of his way to talk to people all the time about these ideas, and many of us who talk to other people do report what we hear to him directly. The positives of rotation when you take it seriously far outweigh what should be considered a "defunct" banning system. We don't have new maps coming. To keep it fresh, it needs to shift around. As a consequence, it was entirely natural that some of the maps on the list the longest were the first to be rotated out.

I am 100% in support of Brad on this, I also agree completely with the timing, and I thank him for doing this.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 9:40 pm 
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I agree with Bill here, and to take the "season" idea a little further, especially in comparison to sports like the NFL, we aren't restricted to using the same "teams". You win a regional, you get a badge, and you can bring whatever squad you want to bring to Gencon. If you don't win a badge, you can still come to Gencon and play and use whatever squad you want. Given this, I think it's good to induce people to change, if need be. Removing maps, especially to keep things fresh, is an excellent, albeit unpopular, idea. There certainly need to be balanced maps that stay on for the sake of fairness in competition, but the removal of 3 maps, one of which that was barely ever used, is hardly a big deal. Ultimately I think it'll help the game, much in the same way the V-sets made all the factions competitive, and as each faction won a regional, the ones that didn't became more attractive for people to try out and play. And how could that ever be viewed as a bad thing?

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 9:55 pm 
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I have to say that I agree with the choices of maps that have been removed. However, if I didn't, I wouldn't say anything because I haven't been saying anything all during the regional season. Regardless of when the map list is updated... July or September... the regional season is when we should really be discussing it. I know I haven't, so in my mind I have no reason to complain.

Moving forward, I would like to see the regional season and GenCon be treated as one contiguous season, with updates coming either before or after. Put me down for that Brad, and I apologize for not speaking up when you needed input.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 11:59 am 
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I am writing to voice heavy discontent from several minis players about changing the legal map list between regionals and GenCon

Not everyone that plays the game posts here, and I feel I need to relay a recent story.

A minis player who doesn't post here often, but likes the game. He used a very creative squad at regionals and ran the map he knew best - throne room. He did very well and for the first time ever cracked the top four at a regional. He was thrilled, and it re-invigorated his love for the game. He got other players who used to play at his LGS excited about the game again because he loved some of the new options with the v-set. He was excited to bring his squad to GenCon and try it out at the world championships.

Then he gets the rug pulled out from under him.

When he heard the map list was being changed he was deflated. He practiced on his map, he knew his map, he felt confident with his map. He was most angry that the change happened now. He told me it would be fine if it had happened after GenCon, because then he would practice on other maps for several months, and sharpen his skills during regionals. But now he is so frustrated, he is done with minis. He is not playing minis at GenCon, and he won't be getting any of us at LGS to play minis anymore. He said that the fact that the community supposedly controls the game now, and yet they would do something this asinine makes him not want to be a part of the community.

The real kicker is that from what I understand, ONE person made this decision. I thought we were a community. ONE person made the decision to change the map list right before GenCon.

We are LOSING players due to this. Is this what we want? I thought we were trying to build up our player base. It doesn't effect the guys that go to a bunch of different regionals and play all the time on all different maps. But it does effect the local smaller groups. It effects the guys who may be on the fence for if they want to spend their time and money playing minis. It's dramatic timing like this that makes players like we have at my LGS not want to play minis anymore.

This is just what has happened locally here, I'm not on these boards often so I am glad my attention was brought to it. I am sure there are many that feel the same way, but don't come to the boards often to voice it or even know about it. What about the guy who shows up at GenCon with a map he thought was legal? We are alienating many members of our community and it's turning into an elitist club. Fine, let the guys who play all the time and go to all the regionals keep doing whatever they want to do, but I thought you wanted to grow the game. This does the opposite. It even sounds like many (in fact the majority) of the big names in the game are against it. When guys like Deri are dead set against it - you probably should listen since he knows what he's talking about.

Let me be clear here - it is not about the map choices, it is about changing things at this point in the year. Make changes for the new year after GenCon.

We as a community need to overturn this decision. We need a vote to decide if we are going to allow one person to change things for us right before the biggest tournament of the year.

Map changes AFTER GenCon, not before it.

Let's see if we can salvage a mass exodus of this game.


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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 12:45 pm 
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billiv15 wrote:
thereisnotry wrote:
Personally, FWIW, I see no need for map rotation, though I wouldn't be dead-set against it either.


Meh. It's never been about need. It's about doing something more interesting.


Agreed. We don't NEED a map rotation, but it should spice the game up somewhat, especially now that we're getting good competitive maps much less often than in the past.

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Some of you seem to be stuck in the old mind set that once banned, always banned, always crap. That actually isn't exactly what Brad was doing with this new list. I personally don't agree with Muunalist being removed, or Jedi Temple and I think the arguments against both are crap. I also personally believe Nightclub should have been on the list the last 2 years. But those points are not the issue.

These maps aren't "gone forever", they are the beginning of a rotational system with the maps. Please make sure you've adequately wrapped your head around that before you post any more "my favorite map is gone this is garbage" stuff.


Is it? That wasn't made clear. Is this really the beginning of the rotation system? I know he mentioned it in the first post, but I'm not making that connection so clearly. Can someone please explain this a little better if true?

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Now to the idea that it should or shouldn't change July 1st. I am a full advocate for it changing after the regional season. You all are into using the sports analogies, so here's one for ya, Nascar. Biggest event of the year, starts the year off with whatever new rules they put in place.


Yeah, that's totally cool. Having new rules at the START of the year is fine! That's exactly how I think it should happen, in fact; change the map list in March, and then the regionals will be "start[ing] the year off with whatever new rules they put in place". I feel like I'm misinterpreting your analogy a bit here, though. Maybe it's because I don't watch NASCAR. :?

Either way, comparing analogies isn't really meaningful anyway.

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But ultimately, that's the wrong way to even think this through. We are in no way playing a "season" at all. Well maybe Tim and the Atlanta guys get close, but come on people. This is nothing like a season. Regionals are meant to be both a fun "qualifying" event for one person for a gencon badge. But they are in no way connected other than in your heads to Gencon.


I'll admit that maybe the "season" thought process isn't shared by everyone, but you likewise need to admit that it might be shared by most people, even if you don't share it. The argument of "people consider it a season!" countered by "nu-uh, no they don't!" won't get us anywhere. I'm willing to say that in my experience people do consider GenCon and Regionals to be tied together very closely. The way I interpret other posts about things like the GenCon meta leads me to believe that lots of people share this belief. You might not share it, and you might think it's the wrong way to think about it, and that's fine; but that doesn't make you right.

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And finally we get to this. Brad has been given this power. He has repeatedly asked for help in the past, and not gotten it. In my book, this is his choice entirely, and no one else gets to say poop about it. He goes out of his way to talk to people all the time about these ideas, and many of us who talk to other people do report what we hear to him directly. The positives of rotation when you take it seriously far outweigh what should be considered a "defunct" banning system. We don't have new maps coming. To keep it fresh, it needs to shift around. As a consequence, it was entirely natural that some of the maps on the list the longest were the first to be rotated out.


Brad certainly does get props for taking on this responsibility, and I of course understand that in the past when he has asked for help he has gotten shockingly little help with it. I'll share in thanking him for being willing to do this job for us.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 1:01 pm 
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StorminNorman wrote:
Let's see if we can salvage a mass exodus of this game.


A "mass exodus?" You told the story of one hypothetical player who hasn't even felt it important enough to come here and discuss with the person who made the decision, let alone the rest of the community. It just seems a bit exaggerated, don't you think?

The mass exodus has already occurred. We salvaged it three years ago with the V-set projects (which are doing well by all accounts, by the way).

I love Muunilist map. I know other people have fondness for the other maps. Their absence from the tournament makes them no less playable the other 364 days of the year. And there's a good chance they will return at some point.

You think the community should be more involved? Great, I'm all for it. Will all the other people who helped playtest maps to determine balance issues and which maps should make the cut please raise your right hand. ... Anyone? ... Buehler? No? Okay then, what's next? ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 1:07 pm 
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Well thanks for the vote of confidence in my opinion, whoever you are, StorminNorman.

My reasons for being against it are mainly that i like all the maps that have been taken off and the change has come out of the blue.
I hope that doesn't mean people show up with non-legal maps for the championship.

I feel many of the maps left on are worse than the ones removed and i still have a desire to see the game played as it was when wizards were in control and i think Maps do huge contributions to play style.

I also don't recall a map change this close to Gen Con before which affects those people who are already set on their squad and map. . At least if it did it never affected me i guess as being that prepared is something I've never been.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 1:16 pm 
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
You think the community should be more involved? Great, I'm all for it. Will all the other people who helped playtest maps to determine balance issues and which maps should make the cut please raise your right hand. ... Anyone? ... Buehler? No? Okay then, what's next? ;)


To my knowledge nobody has ever brought up the timing of changing the map list right before GenCon to the community.

If they had I would have VEHEMENTLY been outspoken against it.

People keep getting the points that are being made confused.
Once again, not talking about WHAT maps are chosen, but WHEN those changes are implemented.

I agree that there needs to be a community choice on when the changes take place, even if the specific changes are decided by a smaller group.

It is troubling to see players getting turned off our game by changes like this.

Would people be angry if the map list were not changed before GenCon, but instead changed after? I can't imagine anyone saying, "I'm leaving the game since the map list wasn't changed right before GenCon!" But the opposite is true.

We need to be cognizant of what effects drastic timing like this will have on the community. Especially the non-top tier players. Top-tier players can adapt quickly. I won 3 different regionals with 3 different factions and three different maps this year. But other people need a lot more focus and practice on a specific map to be comfortable.

It's all about the timing. July 1st is a horrible time to make the changes.


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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 1:27 pm 
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No offense StorminNorman if a players love for the game hinges on one map then I really doubt this players love for the game. It is great that he had such great success and top 4ing at a regional which is something I didn't do after 4 attempts this year myself.

What I would tell your player is that he has over a month to learn a new map. I bet Jabba's palace, Bothan Spynet, Peaceful city or Asteroid mine would be great options for him to look into.

@Tim

I'm sorry I do not see why over a month notice in advanced is horrible. Shaking up the enviroment before GenCon will keep it fresh and not just seeing the same things we have seen in 20 regionals. We will enter this big map change with the biggest playtest possible in one place and have it done for the bigger changes on January first and the regional season after that.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 1:28 pm 
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TimmerB123 wrote:

It's all about the timing. July 1st is a horrible time to make the changes.


I agree...if you had said big changes. There are still several maps that play like Throne Room (as this it's what it's really about) on the list, though not as easily abused. I left them on intentionally.

Referring to a hypothetical map rotation. July 1 would be the date of said change, though the list would still be known in January. It'd would be flat out stupid to pop up a whole new map list without forewarning. July's update would simply make the list effective with the follow up list for January being made know at that time as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 1:42 pm 
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The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
TimmerB123 wrote:

It's all about the timing. July 1st is a horrible time to make the changes.


I agree...if you had said big changes. There are still several maps that play like Throne Room (as this it's what it's really about) on the list, though not as easily abused. I left them on intentionally.

Referring to a hypothetical map rotation. July 1 would be the date of said change, though the list would still be known in January. It'd would be flat out stupid to pop up a whole new map list without forewarning. July's update would simply make the list effective with the follow up list for January being made know at that time as well.


So IS it hypothetical? With the clock ticking every day we still are unsure of GenCon THIS YEAR what maps will be legal?

I would have MUCH less of a problem with the change if in January we had forewarning. But we did not. Do you want to do it this way next year? That's workable. If it's not abundantly clear, my issue is with taking 3 maps off the restricted list THIS YEAR right before GenCon with no forewarning.

It effects me much less than others. The map I was planning on using is still on the legal list. I just am just against changing the rules (and yes, the legal map list is part of the rules) in the game in the middle of the season (and yes, most people do consider it a season). Nothing drives me more crazy than having rules changed in the middle of a game, and this is akin to that. If we knew in January that it was going to change in July (and what it was changing into), then at least we all knew it going in.

So it is the principal of the matter for me.


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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 1:46 pm 
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TimmerB123 wrote:

So IS it hypothetical? With the clock ticking every day we still are unsure of GenCon THIS YEAR what maps will be legal?


A rotating map list for next year would indeed be hypothetical at this point, it just kept getting brought up in this thread. It is something I have leaned towards and a few have mentioned it here.

As to the rest, I'm not sure why you are still unsure. Check the Floor Rules and any subsequent updates if you are.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 1:51 pm 
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From reading the post I think the Hypothetical is the idea of a map rotation.

There is an example of a rule change situation that happened in a game much larger then SWMs. I think it was 2001 and WOTC had a mall tour for the Pokemon CCG all around the country with the winners winning the chance to play in a National championship in New York.

Three weeks out from the event they announced a change in the national tournament called T15/C3 rule. It allowed you to only play 15 cards of the trainer type and only 3 of a card. You talk about a rule change!! Deck construction just got turned on its head. This totally changed how you built a deck.

The event was a massive playtest and it was deemed that while the rule change was great there were to many complaints to implement it.

I was all for the change and the announcement time. In this case GenCon will have most of the brightest minds in the game all gathered together and you can have a great playtest of any new rules you want to implement. As its been said here, If something isnt broke at the highest levels of play it isnt broke.

So here we have a situation where the game gets to get rid of 3 questionable maps and a great situation to make sure that the decision was right.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 1:53 pm 
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I'd like to note that in January I added maps based on things I had picked up from varying members of the community, though not necessarily as a whole.

No complaints.

Now, I remove maps based on those same things....

In some ways, the argument of forewarning is somewhat silly. Floor rules updates are in January and July, always have been. They may include new rules or new maps, always have been, this isn't even the first to change maps; though I think the others were additions. Seems to me that's forewarning.

I will however apologize that people are put off by this, but I won't take blame for it to the extent you expect because of what I said above.

Now, let's be constructive for a change and let's hear some more on map rotations.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 1:58 pm 
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On the map rotation thing is that something we even need? We have the back of Catina that could be easily used in restricted and so far Mas Transit 4 looks pretty good. That puts us at roughly 20 maps that would be legal in restricted play. That is already a ton of diversity and maybe it would get Anchorhead and a few others that don't see as much play back into use over time.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 2:04 pm 
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The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
I'm not sure why you are still unsure. Check the Floor Rules and any subsequent updates if you are.


On the main page under resources the latest update I can see is Jan 2012. Where is the July 1 2012 update located?


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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 2:06 pm 
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audrisampson wrote:
On the map rotation thing is that something we even need? We have the back of Catina that could be easily used in restricted and so far Mas Transit 4 looks pretty good. That puts us at roughly 20 maps that would be legal in restricted play. That is already a ton of diversity and maybe it would get Anchorhead and a few others that don't see as much play back into use over time.


In my opinion, those are statements for a rotation. We have a lot of good maps on the Restricted List and some aren't seeing play. Essentially, any sort of rotation would cut the list in half with each half having half the year in competitive play. Variety, if split right, would stay the same but the maps we see should increase.

Also we had a big influx of custom maps because they had been designed over 5 years where they weren't valid. Now we'll be lucky to get 2 a year. Which begs another question: If a map is released in March that every one likes could it be added to the preexisting list that pops open in July?

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 2:07 pm 
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Go away for a couple of days and man it blows up.

To correct Tim from an earlier post:

I have never played Smuggler's base at Gencon. The last 2 years have been the exact same squad on Muun. I lost 1 game when I won map (and that was when I rolled a miss on R2 to kill him and break the override on the door that would let me get to all his other dudes). Since I couldn't get to his dudes, I had nothing to do with the lancer except run it away. It let my opp reposition out of his starting area and take out one of the lancers before it did anything.


I did play Smuggler's base right after it came out (with lancer) and won the K-town challenge. I shouldn't have won, but the dice gods were kind. A 1 by my opp followed by lots of high numbers by me (needing all to hit) and a failed Defense save is what won me the game (and the tourney). After playing Lancer on Smug base that tourney, I Determined it wasn't all that good for lancer. Not terrible, but not near as good as Muun. There are enough hiding places on it that it just doesn't work as well.

Even in today's meta, I would take my Double Lancer on Muun to beat about any squad out there. There are no good hiding spots on Muun, so the Lancer can get wherever it needs to. Because it outdistances most every squad you never have the chance to "advance to the next room" because Muun is so open and there really isn't a next "room" to get to. And I know people will say that squad x or squad y should beat it, but about the only squad it would realistically have problems with is Hinkbert's Homicidal Mace/GOWK/Evazan squad. But that is only on Muun. On the games where it doesn't win map, it is tons more difficult and there are tons of squads that can easily beat it. Because there are better room options and more safe spots, etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 2:11 pm 
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TimmerB123 wrote:
The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
I'm not sure why you are still unsure. Check the Floor Rules and any subsequent updates if you are.


On the main page under resources the latest update I can see is Jan 2012. Where is the July 1 2012 update located?



It's been updated on Bloomilk. Eric usually updates it here. I don't have access to or don't know how to...

You'll have to ignore the blue lines in the map list. The program won;t let me undo those for whatever reason and revert back to purple. For such a small update I didn;t want to reconstruct the entire document.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 2:14 pm 
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The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
audrisampson wrote:
On the map rotation thing is that something we even need? We have the back of Catina that could be easily used in restricted and so far Mas Transit 4 looks pretty good. That puts us at roughly 20 maps that would be legal in restricted play. That is already a ton of diversity and maybe it would get Anchorhead and a few others that don't see as much play back into use over time.


In my opinion, those are statements for a rotation. We have a lot of good maps on the Restricted List and some aren't seeing play. Essentially, any sort of rotation would cut the list in half with each half having half the year in competitive play. Variety, if split right, would stay the same but the maps we see should increase.

Also we had a big influx of custom maps because they had been designed over 5 years where they weren't valid. Now we'll be lucky to get 2 a year. Which begs another question: If a map is released in March that every one likes could it be added to the preexisting list that pops open in July?


Maybe your right on that one, but creating a map rotation IMO creates add confusion to a situation that really doesn't need one.

I would love to see maps get added that quick!

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