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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 11:55 am 
Death Star Designers
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The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
If we have X maps for a whole "season" now and get burnt out, then how will it be with X/2 maps for the same period of time.


I don't think "burnt out" is a good word for it, but I'll use it, and I also think this misses the biggest part of having a rotating list. The reason a rotating list would cause less "burn out" is because each year for Regionals and GenCon there would be a totally different list of maps. It doesn't matter how big the list is; what matters is that it's different.

Besides, I don't think anyone would get "burnt out" if the map list was just 6 months old. If so, there is no helping that at all, and a rotating map list of any kind would never change that.

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Outside of Regional/Gencon "season" there is no map list (essentially) as the Floor Rules now sanction any format at the LGS level.


No map list? I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean that there aren't big enough events for the restricted list to matter? If so, that's patently false. There are a number of "off-season" events that use the restricted list, and I know that plenty of LGSs would use the rotating map list in regular tournaments (we certainly would here). That nobody cares about the restricted list outside of the Regional/GenCon season is a huge assumption and in my experience 100% untrue. Why in the world do you think that?

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Referring to it as a season is flawed logic. I could very easily throw the same argument that its a pre season of Regionals followed by the season of Gencon or a season of regionals followed by a post season, many of those are often at "different venues" so a change wouldnt be so off there.


But nobody DOES think of it in those ways. People do, however, think of Regionals as being connected to GenCon. It can very reasonably be considered a "season", and that's a term that we have actually be using here in Atlanta for years to reference it. From what I've seen it's basically universally accepted that the Regionals feed into GenCon. That's why people look at Regional results when they discuss the GenCon meta (which is literally happening in another thread right now).

So yeah, you could use some weird, obscure definition of the "season" where Regionals and GenCon aren't the same, but you'd be the only one using that definition. At best you could call Regionals a "pre season" and GenCon the "season", but that is kind of silly since GenCon is just one weekend, and that doesn't change the fact at all that the "preseason" and "season" should have the same rules if you really want to think of it that way.


The more I think about it the more I find myself agreeing with Tim, in no small part because any counter argument seems inherently flawed or disingenuous in some way.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 12:13 pm 
Imperial Dignitaries
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Echo and Tim are right. Regionals are the "regular season" and Gencon the "playoffs." The two together are a single season, just like the way it works in the NFL, NBA, NHL, etc. Changing the rules mid-season just doesn't make sense.

For that reason, I'd prefer to see the maps change in September, rather than in July.

Having said that, I do think a case could be made for having the option to change things in July, but only if the Regionals have shown something to be abusive. A person should not gain an auto-win (or a near-auto-win) just because they win a map roll, but as long as that situation is not happening, there is no need for extreme measures in July. From what I've seen, none of the Regionals have shown any squad consistently abusing a specific map (certainly not like SS on Teth), so the changes should've waited until September.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:33 pm 
Big Bad Brad
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thereisnotry wrote:
Echo and Tim are right. Regionals are the "regular season" and Gencon the "playoffs." The two together are a single season, just like the way it works in the NFL, NBA, NHL, etc. Changing the rules mid-season just doesn't make sense.

For that reason, I'd prefer to see the maps change in September, rather than in July.

Having said that, I do think a case could be made for having the option to change things in July, but only if the Regionals have shown something to be abusive. A person should not gain an auto-win (or a near-auto-win) just because they win a map roll, but as long as that situation is not happening, there is no need for extreme measures in July. From what I've seen, none of the Regionals have shown any squad consistently abusing a specific map (certainly not like SS on Teth), so the changes should've waited until September.


Pretty sure tim said season and I was the one who said Season-Post season. You two have just misread my posts I guess. Or maybe Tim and I were simply arguing the same point from different sides.

Changing maps isn't a rules change really, so not sure what you mean there. Besides any type of rotation would have equally comparable maps. Peaceful City vs Jabba's palace or some such.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:36 pm 
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What I meant by "no map list" Echo is that LGS aren't confined to the terms "Restricted" "Standard" or "Open" to be considered sanctioned. They most likely use it for ease of reference, but they don't have to.

Uhg, I hate typing.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:47 pm 
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The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
What I meant by "no map list" Echo is that LGS aren't confined to the terms "Restricted" "Standard" or "Open" to be considered sanctioned. They most likely use it for ease of reference, but they don't have to.

Uhg, I hate typing.


My LGS runs events weekly on Friday nights and after recent changes we pretty much follow the restricted map list. We don't have to but why wouldnt we when its practice for regional season and constant exposure to the maps we need to know.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:59 pm 
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By the way, of course PLAYERS would go the easiest least restrictive way. Step back from being a player for a moment.

What keeps it fresh and exciting?

To be honest, I'm not even sure why there's a debate. When did the ideas of map rotation and what not even become a part of it? I removed some maps and said I was looking at making some changes next year as well. Then this convo took off.

Still, I suppose it's one worth having. It seems there is a call for a map rotation, which I don't disagree with. To me though, not being a player anymore (lets face it), the majority of competitive games are from March to August and probably 75% of us play 90% of our games during that time. Am I wrong?

If that's the case, it seems to me that rotation should change during that time frame. Esepcially if players are aware of it during Regionals it should be a non-issue.

My thoughts (if we did a map rotation) would be that Januarys Update would list the maps for January 1-June 31, AND the rotation for July 1-Dec 31. July's update would then have the map list for July 1-Dec 31 and the following years January 1-June 31. No surprises there...

I get that Regionals feed into Gencon, but we shouldn't be tied to that, things stagnate a little in my opinion when we get to gencon and play seriously for four days solid the same maps we've played hard for the last 6 months or so, especially if that list were to be cut in half.

Again, that's on my assumption that a decent majority (at least) of us get in most of our games in that finite amount of time. Honestly, it's got to be fairly close to accurate just given how many people travel once a month for 8 rounds of games vs a weekly meeting of 2-3 rounds.

On a side note, the Floor rules update times won't change. They will be January and July as always, but that doesnt mean that a map change would have to follow that. For instance, Dec and June would work out fairly the same way.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:02 pm 
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audrisampson wrote:
The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
What I meant by "no map list" Echo is that LGS aren't confined to the terms "Restricted" "Standard" or "Open" to be considered sanctioned. They most likely use it for ease of reference, but they don't have to.

Uhg, I hate typing.


My LGS runs events weekly on Friday nights and after recent changes we pretty much follow the restricted map list. We don't have to but why wouldnt we when its practice for regional season and constant exposure to the maps we need to know.


I'm not sure if this is a corraboration of what I said or a counterpoint to somethign (once again) being misread in my post.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:11 pm 
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The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
To me though, not being a player anymore (lets face it), the majority of competitive games are from March to August and probably 75% of us play 90% of our games during that time. Am I wrong?


From where I'm sitting, yes, you are wrong about that. By no means can I speak for any other venues, but here in Atlanta we try to have competitive tournaments every week, especially when outside of that March to August time frame. Our local competitive scene cools down a bit during that time because of those of us who travel, but the guys that don't travel are just as competitive and so we play competitively as often as possible.

Maybe we're anomalous, maybe we're the norm, I couldn't tell you. What I can say is that here in Atlanta saying that a map rotation (or map changes in general) is "pointless" if it isn't between Regionals and GenCon or that outside of that season there is "no map list (essentially)" is false. We play competitively on a very regular basis whether it's during the season or not, and to that end we always use the Restricted map list, so any changes to the list directly effects our regular tournaments.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:15 pm 
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Echo wrote:
The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
To me though, not being a player anymore (lets face it), the majority of competitive games are from March to August and probably 75% of us play 90% of our games during that time. Am I wrong?


From where I'm sitting, yes, you are wrong about that. By no means can I speak for any other venues, but here in Atlanta we try to have competitive tournaments every week, especially when outside of that March to August time frame. Our local competitive scene cools down a bit during that time because of those of us who travel, but the guys that don't travel are just as competitive and so we play competitively as often as possible.

Maybe we're anomalous, maybe we're the norm, I couldn't tell you. What I can say is that here in Atlanta saying that a map rotation (or map changes in general) is "pointless" if it isn't between Regionals and GenCon or that outside of that season there is "no map list (essentially)" is false. We play competitively on a very regular basis whether it's during the season or not, and to that end we always use the Restricted map list, so any changes to the list directly effects our regular tournaments.


Pretty much what I was trying to say, Celestial. I would hate a map rotation for my local venue because having many maps does keep things fresh as we play on a weekly basis.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:21 pm 
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Ok, let me start tallying this up to make sure I understand everyone correctly:

No Map Rotation:

Audri, Daniel, Brad

Map rotation (after Regionals and Gencon)

Tim

Map Rotation (during Regionals and Gencon)

Brad (i'll put myself here too just so everyone can see where I stand on the issues)

Is that correct?

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:30 pm 
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Woah, wait, no. I've been in favor of a map rotation for a long time now, and still am. I'm not sure what I've said that implies that I am against that, but I didn't mean to say that.

I'm against the rotation (or any map changes, really) being done in the middle of the "competitive season". Note that I'm defining "competitive season" in what I think is the only really logical way, that being from the start of the first Regional to the end of Gencon (so basically March through September). I'm against the idea that if map changes are made in September it would be "pointless" because it won't affect the "competitive season"; it will still affect competitive play, and will still affect many local scenes, and I think would be a nice breath of fresh air. Alternatively, there could just be 1 map change per year, before the "competitive season" (January would be fine for this so there is time to study it before the season starts).

Once again: The only thing I'm really "against" here is changing the map list in the middle of the "competitive season". Despite the fact that I think the maps removed in this update deserved to be removed (although some more than others, to be fair), I think that a good point has been made about the timing of the update and it should have been postponed until some time after GenCon.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:42 pm 
Big Bad Brad
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The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
Ok, let me start tallying this up to make sure I understand everyone correctly:

No Map Rotation:

Audri, Brad

Map rotation (after Regionals and Gencon)

Tim, Daniel

Map Rotation (during Regionals and Gencon)

Brad (i'll put myself here too just so everyone can see where I stand on the issues)

Is that correct?


I was looking at your last line of the post prior.

Odd, seems to me that people who play competitively all the time would care less about when a map change occurs.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:53 pm 
Big Bad Brad
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You know I'm wondering if it wouldn't be an option to split the restricted list into 4 (or so) sets: A, B, C, D and not have a map rotation at all. That would give event organizers the opportunity to declare Restricted (full) or Restricted (A,B,C or D). Given the variety of opinions on the matter that should still open up the map meta for some freshness. I would assume Gencon would be restricted (full) but some regional organizers may choose Restricted (A).

The biggest drawback I see is that it loses its simplicity, people might have to constantly refer back to the map list for each event.

Are there opportunities for abuse there?

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:03 pm 
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I am just not a fan of taking WOTC maps off the list. Are goal should be getting back older players and new throne room is one of the easiest maps to get and I dont get how broke it is? if you know the los I really dont see how its not that bad of a map.

I dont think changing the maps mid season is a good idea.

For someone that will not bring a custom map now i am limited to two maps why?


Last edited by jonnyb815 on Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:04 pm 
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The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
You know I'm wondering if it wouldn't be an option to split the restricted list into 4 (or so) sets: A, B, C, D and not have a map rotation at all. That would give event organizers the opportunity to declare Restricted (full) or Restricted (A,B,C or D). Given the variety of opinions on the matter that should still open up the map meta for some freshness. I would assume Gencon would be restricted (full) but some regional organizers may choose Restricted (A).

The biggest drawback I see is that it loses its simplicity, people might have to constantly refer back to the map list for each event.

Are there opportunities for abuse there?


Yeah there are serious cases of abuse. Lets use the Danville regional for example. I was the Organizer but also a player. So lets say group C includes. Bothan Spynet, Peaceful City, Rhen Var, and Theed Palace. Of course Im going to pick that group since those 4 maps are my favorite.

With that being said odds are I would and I would suspect others would go for the full restricted option just because I wouldnt want players to think I pulled something like what I described above.

JonnyB - I feel the total opposite. With the WOTC products including the actual sets WOTC had too many things they had to fufill like the Lucas contract then to make a game that was fair, balanced and well set up. In my book the less WOTC the better. Thats why Im so dead set on playing in the Vset only tourney just to see if my suspiscion is correct and a lack of WOTC products will make this an infinetly better game.

As far as getting new players back with WOTC items it isn't hard. Most of my group has been playing less then a year and they have most WOTC maps, nearly all the legal maps that were fan made as well as all the Vsets but number 1.

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Last edited by audrisampson on Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:07 pm 
Dark Lord of the Sith
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I am a fan of a A,B,C,D if at least one WOTC map is in each list.

I kind of like the full and abcd idea but not to take WOTC maps off because people think they are not balanced when they are.

Jedi temple is fine if you know how to play on it same with throne room and munn.


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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:18 pm 
Dark Lord of the Sith
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so we are taking off balanced maps and keeping the crappy custom maps great.


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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:19 pm 
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Echo wrote:
Once again: The only thing I'm really "against" here is changing the map list in the middle of the "competitive season". Despite the fact that I think the maps removed in this update deserved to be removed (although some more than others, to be fair), I think that a good point has been made about the timing of the update and it should have been postponed until some time after GenCon.

+1
This is all that I have been saying in this regard. Nothing more, nothing less. Change the maplist after Gencon if it needs changing (not in July). The only reason to even consider changing the maplist mid-season is if Regional results show a map to be very abuse-able.

Personally, FWIW, I see no need for map rotation, though I wouldn't be dead-set against it either.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:43 pm 
Big Bad Brad
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The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
No Map Rotation:

Audri, Brad, Trevor

Map rotation (after Regionals and Gencon)

Tim, Daniel

Map Rotation (during Regionals and Gencon)

Brad (i'll put myself here too just so everyone can see where I stand on the issues)

A,B,C,D Full:
Jonny


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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:48 pm 
Death Star Designers
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jonnyb815 wrote:
so we are taking off balanced maps and keeping the crappy custom maps great.


Who knows. Let's wait for the full update. Brad did say this was a teaser.

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