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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:17 pm 
Big Bad Brad
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I was asked how I felt about certain maps being removed, and told that certain top players had discussed it and felt comfortable with it. I went with that. It's a small step towards my plans for a more dynamic map list next year so removing or readding some later won't be a problem. If community demands it, I have no problem removing Cantina and readding Muunlist.

Honestly, 99% of the time asking ahead of time for results gets you none. I only get the discussions I need after the fact; I'm developing the map list that these after-the-fact discussions will be more valuable and not just bitching in the future.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:25 pm 
Big Bad Brad
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hinkbert wrote:
Am I perhaps missing something with the Cantina map? Why are people against it?

Personally I've never had a problem with it, but I've never chosen to use it for my map choice either.



I had special access to the design of this map from the artist, so I got to playtest on a computerized version and give critique as it had been the desire of the artist to make a restricted quality map.

However, my deadline for Floor Rules and his printing schedule were off. I put it on the Floor Rules based on the final computer image, however, some lines were left off during printing.

Typically, this hasn't been a problem, though there were several more than usual. The artist has since posted a free pdf with corrected lines on his site.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:31 pm 
Master of the Order
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thereisnotry wrote:
1. Wow, that was sudden!!! No information, conversation, communication with the community? This came totally out of left field, unless my internet browser has been editing out all threads/posts which discuss this topic. Why was there no request for input or playtesting help from the various playgroups on this highly significant decision? Oh well, what's done is done, I guess. It won't be all bad (some of the changes are good, IMHO), but the suddenness and finality of the decision is unhelpful.


+1

That aside - here's my thoughts:

Actually - the best, most balanced map IMO is Theed.

Many maps have a "bad" side - which kinda makes them balance themselves, because if you choose the map, be prepared to be on the bad side.

Smugglers Base is bad because it is a field day for lancers and Yodabuck. Just ask Weeks and Urbanjedi, who both used this map to go to the top 8 last year. I remember Jason laughing at the map and calling it the "silly map" because it was so easy for certain squads to abuse. We both marveled at why it was on the restricted list in the first place. Of course he did the smart thing and did use it for his double lancer squad, and was rewarded for it.

At least on Throne Room you get into action quickly. On Rhen Var, Offworld Cargo docks, and Cantina, you have to trudge through tons of slow terrain and twists and turns. If you are not playing swap or the lancer, you are not engaging until round 3.

Offworld shipping center is just horrible. It should not be on the list.



Anyway -

I do remember talking about what maps may or may not be on a future update - but I feel blindsided by the fact it was done 6 weeks before GenCon.


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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:34 pm 
Big Bad Brad
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TimmerB123 wrote:


I do remember talking about what maps may or may not be on a future update - but I feel blindsided by the fact it was done 6 weeks before GenCon.


I was told said discussion had this update in mind.

In the end, may as well get used to it, as the ideal date for any kind of set rotation (given the lack of new maps being created) is indeed July 1.

One set of maps for Regionals, another for Gencon: granted both lists would be know prior to six weeks outs, but imo this is a minor change.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 11:29 pm 
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thereisnotry wrote:
My thoughts:
--No offense to those who think differently, but I think that if people are wanting to see Ravaged Base/Commander's Office removed from the Restricted List, they need to seriously reconsider their tactics. IMHO, it's probably the single best and most-balanced map in the game.


I respectfully disagree. In the Kokomo regional Sven Black Sun Vigo basically rode the back of one accurate shooter to kill off his opponents door control and camp out. He was able to create a total lockout situation in the 3rd vs 4th place game. There are certain points on the map that are just way to easy to defend and just camp out in Gambit.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 12:04 am 
Master of the Order
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The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
TimmerB123 wrote:


I do remember talking about what maps may or may not be on a future update - but I feel blindsided by the fact it was done 6 weeks before GenCon.


I was told said discussion had this update in mind.

In the end, may as well get used to it, as the ideal date for any kind of set rotation (given the lack of new maps being created) is indeed July 1.

One set of maps for Regionals, another for Gencon: granted both lists would be know prior to six weeks outs, but imo this is a minor change.


I always was adamant that the map changes should be after GenCon. We had even talked about how we could tell everyone AT GenCon what the changes would be (rotating list of 6, etc).

I've always felt it's a bad idea to change anything between regionals and GenCon. I think it should be the same for the "season." Changes should be made prior to the first regional. I hated when the GOWK change happened (hated it more when it changed back).

The regionals feed GenCon, and yet now the Meta for GenCon has changed after all the regionals have finished.

I may have to "get used to it" if this is indeed what the community wants, but the last time I checked we (the community) were the ones in control of this game now. I am sure I am not alone in my opinion, and I put forth that rules updates should happen Sept 1 and March 1. If I am in the minority here I will gladly concede, but I do not think I am.

Changes would then happen AFTER GenCon, and or BEFORE Regionals. Regionals through Gencon would remain consistant


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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 12:20 am 
Big Bad Brad
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The rotation spoken of would be pointless then. People would only care about the half of the restricted list on the Mar-Sep rotation. So that would essentially change nothing.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:03 am 
Imperial Dignitaries
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audrisampson wrote:
thereisnotry wrote:
My thoughts:
--No offense to those who think differently, but I think that if people are wanting to see Ravaged Base/Commander's Office removed from the Restricted List, they need to seriously reconsider their tactics. IMHO, it's probably the single best and most-balanced map in the game.


I respectfully disagree. In the Kokomo regional Sven Black Sun Vigo basically rode the back of one accurate shooter to kill off his opponents door control and camp out. He was able to create a total lockout situation in the 3rd vs 4th place game. There are certain points on the map that are just way to easy to defend and just camp out in Gambit.

Yes, that's a good point: if you don't bring door control or don't/can't protect it well enough it could lead to a lockout situation. However, there are 3 paths of access from one side to the other, and I've found that it's rare (and difficult) to create a situation where you can kill all of your opponent's door control before he has a chance to blow at least 1 door. I must've played on this map 100-150 times, and I've only had 3 or 4 games where a lockout situation happened (for either side).

Personally, I do kinda wish that those 2 squares of rough terrain in the middle hallway were normal terrain, because that would allow for better attacks to be mounted from one gambit-spot to the other.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 8:54 am 
Master of the Order
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thereisnotry wrote:
audrisampson wrote:
thereisnotry wrote:
My thoughts:
--No offense to those who think differently, but I think that if people are wanting to see Ravaged Base/Commander's Office removed from the Restricted List, they need to seriously reconsider their tactics. IMHO, it's probably the single best and most-balanced map in the game.

I respectfully disagree. In the Kokomo regional Sven Black Sun Vigo basically rode the back of one accurate shooter to kill off his opponents door control and camp out. He was able to create a total lockout situation in the 3rd vs 4th place game. There are certain points on the map that are just way to easy to defend and just camp out in Gambit.

Yes, that's a good point: if you don't bring door control or don't/can't protect it well enough it could lead to a lockout situation. However, there are 3 paths of access from one side to the other, and I've found that it's rare (and difficult) to create a situation where you can kill all of your opponent's door control before he has a chance to blow at least 1 door. I must've played on this map 100-150 times, and I've only had 3 or 4 games where a lockout situation happened (for either side).

Personally, I do kinda wish that those 2 squares of rough terrain in the middle hallway were normal terrain, because that would allow for better attacks to be mounted from one gambit-spot to the other.


I think I've only had one lockout situation on that map, and the opp was a player who was fond of going for lockouts with 3-4 ERCs. I ended up trapped in the bottom half of the map without enough time to work back around the outside. Totally my fault for not blowing one more door soon enough. And yeah, those 2 squares of rough terrain in the middle hallway can be annoying at times.

I think it's a great map, perhaps the best of the bunch.


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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 9:07 am 
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TimmerB123 wrote:
This squad won a regional running Rancor pit:

Cassus Fett
Bardan Jusik
M. Tactician
M. Scout x2
Czerka Scientist
M. CIO
Death Watch Saboteur
R4 Astromech
Salacious Crumb
Mouse Droid x3
Ug Demo x2


He won map roll every time.


If this doesn't set off alarm bells, I don't know what would.


I remember having a conversation about this sort of situation years ago with Rob Watkins, when we were talking about Korriban and the fact that SS Shooters ruled on it because there was nowhere to hide. I pretty much said the same thing Tim just wrote, that it should raise a red flag about the map. His response to me was this:

"You still have to win map roll."

Was he wrong? I have thought about that a lot over the years when I hear people discuss map choices and how certain squads excel on them. It certainly altered my viewpoint on maps. Some maps are part of squad construction (whether you are building to play on a certain map or in anticipation of playing against a squad on it), and the better players have always recognized that. To ban a map because of a single squad that maximizes efficiency on it is excessive, IMO.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 9:08 am 
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thereisnotry wrote:
Yes, that's a good point: if you don't bring door control or don't/can't protect it well enough it could lead to a lockout situation. However, there are 3 paths of access from one side to the other, and I've found that it's rare (and difficult) to create a situation where you can kill all of your opponent's door control before he has a chance to blow at least 1 door. I must've played on this map 100-150 times, and I've only had 3 or 4 games where a lockout situation happened (for either side).

Personally, I do kinda wish that those 2 squares of rough terrain in the middle hallway were normal terrain, because that would allow for better attacks to be mounted from one gambit-spot to the other.


+1.

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Last edited by Echo on Tue Jul 03, 2012 12:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 9:16 am 
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audrisampson wrote:
thereisnotry wrote:
My thoughts:
--No offense to those who think differently, but I think that if people are wanting to see Ravaged Base/Commander's Office removed from the Restricted List, they need to seriously reconsider their tactics. IMHO, it's probably the single best and most-balanced map in the game.


I respectfully disagree. In the Kokomo regional Sven Black Sun Vigo basically rode the back of one accurate shooter to kill off his opponents door control and camp out. He was able to create a total lockout situation in the 3rd vs 4th place game. There are certain points on the map that are just way to easy to defend and just camp out in Gambit.


If you lose map and have to play on it choose the inside then. Easy access to gambit and three paths to engage. From the outside you can't really get to the main door easily, so your left with only 2 options. There is a few weeks to study maps before champs. So knowing what side you want to be on is very important. Ruined base is the most balanced map we have availible.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 9:43 am 
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Yeah, I remember talking with you about that on Vassal one right, remember that Weeks? That got me thinking; I'll make a post in the Gencon Meta thread.

Anyway, it's important to be familiar with how your squad will play on ALL available maps, not just your own chosen map.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:13 am 
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The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
The rotation spoken of would be pointless then. People would only care about the half of the restricted list on the Mar-Sep rotation. So that would essentially change nothing.


I actually think a once a year map rotation is better for the 6 map rotation. As far as having a Sept update and then a March update, that would be to put on new maps in Sept, and see if we want to keep them for March


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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:28 am 
Big Bad Brad
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TimmerB123 wrote:
The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
The rotation spoken of would be pointless then. People would only care about the half of the restricted list on the Mar-Sep rotation. So that would essentially change nothing.


I actually think a once a year map rotation is better for the 6 map rotation. As far as having a Sept update and then a March update, that would be to put on new maps in Sept, and see if we want to keep them for March


I was referencing the timing, not the frequency.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:32 am 
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The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
TimmerB123 wrote:
The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
The rotation spoken of would be pointless then. People would only care about the half of the restricted list on the Mar-Sep rotation. So that would essentially change nothing.


I actually think a once a year map rotation is better for the 6 map rotation. As far as having a Sept update and then a March update, that would be to put on new maps in Sept, and see if we want to keep them for March


I was referencing the timing, not the frequency.


I understand. My whole point is that I think nothing should change between Regionals and GenCon. Much like when we release V-Sets. GenCon should reflect the same environment as the regionals the same year had.


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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 11:10 am 
Big Bad Brad
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TimmerB123 wrote:
The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
TimmerB123 wrote:
The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
The rotation spoken of would be pointless then. People would only care about the half of the restricted list on the Mar-Sep rotation. So that would essentially change nothing.


I actually think a once a year map rotation is better for the 6 map rotation. As far as having a Sept update and then a March update, that would be to put on new maps in Sept, and see if we want to keep them for March


I was referencing the timing, not the frequency.


I understand. My whole point is that I think nothing should change between Regionals and GenCon. Much like when we release V-Sets. GenCon should reflect the same environment as the regionals the same year had.


Then a rotation is pointless.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 11:26 am 
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The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
TimmerB123 wrote:
The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
TimmerB123 wrote:
The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
The rotation spoken of would be pointless then. People would only care about the half of the restricted list on the Mar-Sep rotation. So that would essentially change nothing.


I actually think a once a year map rotation is better for the 6 map rotation. As far as having a Sept update and then a March update, that would be to put on new maps in Sept, and see if we want to keep them for March


I was referencing the timing, not the frequency.


I understand. My whole point is that I think nothing should change between Regionals and GenCon. Much like when we release V-Sets. GenCon should reflect the same environment as the regionals the same year had.


Then a rotation is pointless.


Why? Then it changes each season.


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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 11:38 am 
Big Bad Brad
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If we have X maps for a whole "season" now and get burnt out, then how will it be with X/2 maps for the same period of time.

Outside of Regional/Gencon "season" there is no map list (essentially) as the Floor Rules now sanction any format at the LGS level.

Referring to it as a season is flawed logic. I could very easily throw the same argument that its a pre season of Regionals followed by the season of Gencon or a season of regionals followed by a post season, many of those are often at "different venues" so a change wouldnt be so off there.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 11:48 am 
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I pretty much agree with Celestial on the timing of this change. The regionals are basically the regular season leading up to the playoffs at GenCon. With July 1st changes you can see what was up at the regionals and fix anything abusive.

With this being announced well over a month in advance that gives plenty of time to make adequate adjustments and be ready to go for GenCon.

As far as the Ravaged Base thing, for the most part you guys are right. Its more of a personal pet peeve of mine more then anything serious.

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Last edited by audrisampson on Tue Jul 03, 2012 12:09 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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