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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 3:59 pm 
Master of the Order
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Echo wrote:
Ravaged Base is in my opinion (and this has been my opinion for quite some time) one of the most balanced maps available. It's probaby the one map that I would hate the most to see taken off, and I use it for a huge variety of different squad types (mostly shooters, mostly melee, lots of movement breaking, little movement breaking, and so on).


I think Ravaged Base should stay on the restricted list, but it has an annoying side. Here's why it is NOT the best: It creates gambit standoffs. It's one of the few maps (if not the only map) where both squads can be in gambit (opposite sides of a wall) and still not be able to reach each other and attack in one round without a movement breaker. That is hugely annoying. Often in even squads, the first to make a move loses. That sucks. I thought we were moving away from rewarding camping.


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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 4:01 pm 
Death Star Designers
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So wizards maps everyone is familiar with get dropped and the cantina map no one even heard of gets put in the restricted? Lame. Who is making these decisions?

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 4:05 pm 
Death Star Designers
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TimmerB123 wrote:
Echo wrote:
Ravaged Base is in my opinion (and this has been my opinion for quite some time) one of the most balanced maps available. It's probaby the one map that I would hate the most to see taken off, and I use it for a huge variety of different squad types (mostly shooters, mostly melee, lots of movement breaking, little movement breaking, and so on).


I think Ravaged Base should stay on the restricted list, but it has an annoying side. Here's why it is NOT the best: It creates gambit standoffs. It's one of the few maps (if not the only map) where both squads can be in gambit (opposite sides of a wall) and still not be able to reach each other and attack in one round without a movement breaker. That is hugely annoying. Often in even squads, the first to make a move loses. That sucks. I thought we were moving away from rewarding camping.


In my experience you can usually get to the opponent easily enough to attack if you set up correctly. It is vastly easier if you have even a small movement breaker, but still not impossible. You just have to be willing to not just leave your guys in the Commander's Office while your opponent sits in the Turbolift that's in Gambit. If they've got guys in the left-side hallway, you'll be able to get to them. I've never had a problem with being unable to break a standoff on that map, and I've won plenty of times by being the first to make a move, even with even squads and against good players and from both sides of the map. It takes a little creative thinking and good placement, and I'm willing to admit that my very large amount of experience with that map has helped me with that (I've certainly played on it more than any other map, probably be at least twofold).

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 4:15 pm 
Third Jedi from the Left
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The removal of those 3 maps makes me glad. It'll be a tremendous help to the balance of the Epic 500 format. What I'm wondering is, will the maps perhaps come back after a year with a rotation happening where certain maps are cycled off to keep things fresh?

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 4:51 pm 
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The only one I agree with is Jedi temple. Muunilist has always been one of my favorite maps and it's one of those maps where there isn't a better side both are balanced. Same goes for throne room. While I think shooters are awesome in this game, I don't think its accurate to say that melee is at a huge disadvantage this year when we had mace win at least 3 regionals, vong win a regional where cad bane was like the only shooter, and even the sith squad that one had Jaq as the only shooter (given the best current shooter in the game). This meta is so wide open and really just comes down to matchups now, I think melee can be just as deadly as shooters now.

I would really like to know how was this voted on? By whom? When?

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 6:00 pm 
Master of the Order
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fingersandteeth wrote:
Grand Moff Boris wrote:
I'm not sure I know what "Throne Room" or "Muunilist Plaza" are.


throne room = chancellors starship (ultimate missions and 2007 starter map)
Muunalinst = Clone Strike starter map (2nd map ever made and still one of the most balanced).

3 of my favorite maps gone to standard.

there is no fanfare from me.

Is this just to mess with the meta or do people actually think these maps are bad?


That's what I thought. I agree 100% with your assessment of Muunilist. I'll save the rest of my comments for a private discussion.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 6:26 pm 
Death Star Designers
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I'll agree with Jedi Temple.

I understand where the complaints for Throne Room was coming from, even if I disagree with it.

If Muunilist was taken off because of all the tricky LOS, then you made a big mistake.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 6:27 pm 
One of the Sith on Malgus' Shuttle
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So for Restricted, how many WotC maps are left? Hopefully this doesn't cut out people from playing in Restricted games if they don't have the funds to get the maps from Maps of Mystery/Armored Cartographer.


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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 6:31 pm 
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I believe 3, Rancor Pit, Ravaged Base (which should never leave the Restricted list), and Bespin.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 6:36 pm 
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I'd be ok with this if it was just Jedi temple and rancor pit. Both maps are on the same piece of paper, both are abusable. And eliminating 2 starter maps really nerfs setting up new players for cheap.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 6:44 pm 
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Weeks wrote:
I'd be ok with this if it was just Jedi temple and rancor pit. Both maps are on the same piece of paper, both are abusable. And eliminating 2 starter maps really nerfs setting up new players for cheap.


Thinking about it some more, Jedi Temple and Rancor Pit would be the two maps I'd most like to see pruned from the previous Restricted list too. I'm not super keen on Muunlist and Throne Room, but I like them more than the other two.


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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 7:33 pm 
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This squad won a regional running Rancor pit:

Cassus Fett
Bardan Jusik
M. Tactician
M. Scout x2
Czerka Scientist
M. CIO
Death Watch Saboteur
R4 Astromech
Salacious Crumb
Mouse Droid x3
Ug Demo x2


He won map roll every time.


If this doesn't set off alarm bells, I don't know what would.


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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:12 pm 
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Actually as far as cost goes, most if not all of JC maps can be had at Miniature Market for $8 or so each. Cheaper than most starters anymore.

I do find it amusing that everyone wants to get rid of something except no one wants to get rid of Bespin.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:15 pm 
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urbanjedi wrote:
Actually as far as cost goes, most if not all of JC maps can be had at Miniature Market for $8 or so each. Cheaper than most starters anymore.

I do find it amusing that everyone wants to get rid of something except no one wants to get rid of Bespin.


Because Bespin is an excellent map. Jedi Temple/Rancor pit are not.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:23 pm 
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Just haven't seen anyone bring it recently and I always assumed it was because they didn't want to start from the "bad" side. Only exception being James and his Force Push squad that he used to run and is probably still competitive just not great anymore.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:30 pm 
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I'm with F&T, why Muunilist Plaza? There has been chatter about Throne Room & Yavin going to standard and I get that decision but throwing in MP seems a bit excessive.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:32 pm 
Sith Apprentice
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Weeks wrote:
So wizards maps everyone is familiar with get dropped and the cantina map no one even heard of gets put in the restricted? Lame. Who is making these decisions?


+1

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:58 pm 
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TimmerB123 wrote:
This squad won a regional running Rancor pit:

Cassus Fett
Bardan Jusik
M. Tactician
M. Scout x2
Czerka Scientist
M. CIO
Death Watch Saboteur
R4 Astromech
Salacious Crumb
Mouse Droid x3
Ug Demo x2


He won map roll every time.


If this doesn't set off alarm bells, I don't know what would.


For what it is worth that Regional did not have a final four cut.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 9:54 pm 
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My thoughts:

1. Wow, that was sudden!!! No information, conversation, communication with the community? This came totally out of left field, unless my internet browser has been editing out all threads/posts which discuss this topic. Why was there no request for input or playtesting help from the various playgroups on this highly significant decision? Oh well, what's done is done, I guess. It won't be all bad (some of the changes are good, IMHO), but the suddenness and finality of the decision is unhelpful.

2. Jedi Temple: I agree 100%, and I'm glad it's finally gone.

3. Throne Room: It was THE go-to map for shooter squads. Why? Because it was hands-down, the best shooter map in the game. I think/hope that its removal will allow for different shooter maps to emerge. Peaceful City has been suggested, as has Jabba's Palace. I thought Throne Room was actually a fair map, and I've won plenty of games on it while using lots of different melee-focused squads, as well as shooter squads.

4. Muun: I honestly can't understand why it got the boot. Crazy LOS is a good thing, IMHO; if you're going to choose a map, then you had better learn its LOS's. It had some solid advancement and attack options from both sides, and a variety of squads could compete on it (super-stealth is great in the pillars, and fast-moving squads totally dig the general lack of hindering terrain).



Other thoughts in response to discussion in this thread:
--No offense to those who think differently, but I think that if people are wanting to see Ravaged Base/Commander's Office removed from the Restricted List, they need to seriously reconsider their tactics. IMHO, it's probably the single best and most-balanced map in the game.

--Rancor Pit: The thing with the Rancor Pit is that your opponent will usually take the left side for easy gambit control, so you'd better have a good strategy for attacking your opponent once he encamps himself in the gambit zone. Perhaps that helps to keep it somewhat balanced. But yeah, if I had a say of which other maps to disintegrate, I'd like to see Rancor Pit and Cantina go.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 9:59 pm 
Third Jedi from the Left
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Am I perhaps missing something with the Cantina map? Why are people against it?

Personally I've never had a problem with it, but I've never chosen to use it for my map choice either.

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