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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 10:39 pm 
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Wow, I disappear for a weekend to take my wife out (without the kids) in fact I'm still on that weekend now but my wife is busy. I look on here and there is six pages to respond to. I don't think I can remember all the things I wanted to comment on.

According to Boris 'stormin normin' wrote 1 hypothetical player. Well that may be just 1 story but 1 story none then less of how this affected that 1 player (that I also knew). But fine you want more than 1 story, here's 2 more quicker versions of story's of players that some of you may have heard of. Peter and Drew both of whom don't have accounts here on Gamers. Peter attended Kokomo regional (his first in a while) with his map being a borrowed map from Tim. It took a while to convince him to borrow a map in the first place as anyone who knows him also knows he doesn't like to borrow things from people. Well anyways the only maps he owns are Muunilist and Throne Room. He works a lot but was considering trying to get up to gen con at least for Friday and Saturday. He insisted that if he went, he would play with no borrowed pieces or maps. This change in maps made the desicision for him, he is no longer considering going to gen con. I am close to Peter and knows what kind of person he is. He is a familily oriented guy with a dorky passion for Star Wars and Star Trek. He is a guy who works hard but is struggling right now (like a lot of us). This kind of change not only would make him purchase new maps but also try and play on them to get used to them to a certain degree. Audri says that leaves a month to practice on those other maps. Well 1) that's others maps that he doesn't have, and 2) not everyone is fortunate to be able to play every week. Heck sometimes Tim and I arn't able to get together for 3 months to play 1-2 games much less a small tourney with 3-4 rounds every week. That means it leaves Peter maybe 1 game to practice on a new map (doesn't help much at all). And no one should question his love for star wars or the game. Then there is Drew who doesn't play competivily all that often in fact I think his last attended regional was Chicago 2010 (I think) but in that regional he did beat Bill so a decent player none the less. When I told him of these map changes, the only thing he said "right before Gen Con, and that's why I don't play competitively".

There is 2 more real story's (not hypothetical like Boris would say) of players that some of you may know but who don't have accounts on these boards. Just because you play the game doesn't mean they have an account on these boards (do all the great kids who play in the Wisconsin crew have accounts here?) None the less this effects players of all levels and can be the deciding factor on if they attend gen con (like Peter).

I am with Tim and Danial that theses changes should occur in September.

You want a rotating map list with A-B-C-D, fine keep it "fresh and exciting" that way not by changing the current maps with no warning. Not everyone can play every weekend. A month is not a long time to get used to other maps when you don't get a chance to play all that often.

When talking about Peter, he is just as passonete about the game as you or I and the fact that he is not as fortunate as some of us in how often he can play should not deter that.

I know that's not everything I wanted to say but that's what I can remember for now. Changes to maps should not happan in July.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 5:55 am 
Imperial Dignitaries
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+1
A new song to the Floor Rules Updates: "See You in September" 8-)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRGLjzFHa40

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 6:00 am 
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With all due respect you can not make rule changes based on worrying about how a few fringe players will respond to it. Your also looking at a case where the player is being to stubborn to help themselves. I HATE borrowing stuff from people myself, but sometimes you have to.

If he is that dead set against borrowing stuff he can hop on Miniuature market and spend the 7.00 or so for a new map and Im sure that wouldn't break the bank. I myself have been on unemployment for over a year and have managed to keep up fairly well in the game despite a pathetic low income.

Every decision made in this game kicks someone in the butt. I could go "Oh my god, OR has nothing tourney grade outside of Bastilla and Jaq and it supposed to be a jedi faction and those Vset designers are wrong with how they are making OR so I won't go to GenCon because I can't play the new Naomi Sunrider and expect to win!!" If I said that there would be 10 post after that calling me an idiot or a whiner. Sorry same case here. I will call someone out for skipping GenCon because of a map banning. It is really a sad excuse to do so.

If this player wants to come, I think I have an extra copy of Peaceful city that if I do I will happily give him so that he can play.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 8:01 am 
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Alright i have a question for all of you how long has the changes been adjusted 2 times a year? Im under the assumtion that it has been since wotc stopped the game. If that is correct then this has been going on for several years you know two times a year things get change. Up untill recently i am assuming things had just been added. Well why was no one throwing fits when things get added. I understand people have favorite maps. Mine are jabbas and broken base however if they were being removed i would still be were i sit now in my decision but the thing is you can have everything you want in the game and just hope things dont get stagnant. It is like gardening you have to prune things away in order to get the better crop. These maps are not gone forever they will return but untill we can shake somethings up there on the sidelines waiting

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 8:34 am 
Death Star Designers
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Gone for a minute and you can miss a lot! (1) I do not care when the maps rotate or the list changes as I do not have a favorite map - although I actually miss many maps I enjoyed playing in the past such as Mos Eisley, Transit Station, and Death Star. I kind of get bored with the same maps and miss playing maps I own as they will not help me prepare for restricted map tournaments.

(2) I do appreciate what Brad undertakes with the floor rules and map updates as much as I do everyone that contributes to the continuation of our game - VSet designers, judges, playtesters, organizers, etc.

(3) I actually do wonder if more can be done when consulting about map additions and/or removals in the future. I have not once (unless there is a post asking for opinions that I have missed and if I did I stand corrected) been asked in an official capacity about my opinions on certain maps, existing maps, or maps I would like to see included in Restricted play and reasons why I justify my answer(s). Brad knows the game very well but he himself admits he rarely plays anymore and could really use some help.

(4) I guess I am mostly in the dark about what individual(s) other that Brad are consulted on what maps will be left alone, added, or deleted from Restricted play. A good example: I played at Brad's 500 point epic tourney earlier this year and we did play certain maps explicitly to try them out. I played Brad on the Exodus Class Cruiser and won in a close game. Brad said he did not like the map and it he saw no reason it would be a Restricted map (very early in the game). This actually was unsettling as I do not know how this map played in 200 point games and I actually thought it was a cool map (maybe because it looks good and has a lot of things going on). That is the only game I have ever played and wonder if anyone else has ever played this map or voiced any support of it? As mentioned, I have not played 200 on it and do need to do so, I just wondered what goes into making a map legal for Restricted play. Does a quick opinion of a map determine its fate? Do certain players have more weight in the process or is the argument's merits what is primarily considered?

(5) I actually would be all for a map playtesting period for specific maps be assigned to those that would help and the feedback be used to assist Brad in the thankless task he undertakes (no one will ever be totally satisfied with new changes but if they have a hand in the process it should make it more palatable). Keep up the good work Brad...PS it would be nice if you would start playing again with us as we can always use another player.


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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 8:52 am 
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But we're also trying to keep these fringe players, just like we're trying to keep the kids playing in Wisconsin. I thought we were trying to expand, not just try and make the competitive people on these boards stay afloat.

I myself was on unemployment with a wife and 2 young kids at the same time and it sucks. Peter has 3 kids so I'm sure that's even worse. $7 on a map or $7 on diapers? On a map that he isn't going to get to play often as it is. This is getting of subject completely. How you decide to spend your money is none of my business and how Peter decides to spend whatever funds he has is between him and his wife. We could argue over $7-8 for a map being a lot or a little all day but is accomplishing nothing with the current debate at hand. So I suggest we lay that to rest.

There have been updates in July, that is nothing new, but I don't ever remember there being addition or subtraction of maps in July (maybe I'm wrong, but I don't remember them).
If we're on different sides of the fence here then that's fine it's no reason we can't all be friends. The Maps don't effect a player like me who is familiar with most if not all. It is just my thinking that it is best for the entire community (not just the competitive ones on these boards) to keep map updates (addition or subtraction) in March or September

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 11:45 am 
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If you don't change the map list now (which is already done mind you), you will have same old, same old at Gencon.

I'll bring Jedi Temple and Yodabuck to the championship. Urbanjedi will bring double lancers and muun. Someone else will bring massive activation rebels and Chancelor's starship.

Its just not that interesting.

As for precedent, we did this exact thing 3 or 4 years ago. We limited the map choices in July down to like 6 legal maps. In earlier years, Gencon has had its own map list separate from the rest of the year entirely.

I'd rather have a 5-6 map list set for Gencon personally and have the event be entirely unique, but I'm not in charge of this (nor do I want to be).

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 11:46 am 
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in 2008 the echo base map was added to play July 1,2008 but was not legal for the champs but ever thing else. Yes this was before regionals but pretty much the same idea.


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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 1:18 pm 
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Bill my man +1, couldn't agree more


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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 1:53 pm 
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WacoBlaze wrote:


(4) I guess I am mostly in the dark about what individual(s) other that Brad are consulted on what maps will be left alone, added, or deleted from Restricted play.


Being fairly new/active in the community, Mike's point is a good one and not just regarding the map list mods. So forgive my ignorance on the SWM inner-workings but perhaps this matter could be explained, as I too feel largely in the dark.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 2:01 pm 
Big Bad Brad
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DarphNader wrote:
WacoBlaze wrote:


(4) I guess I am mostly in the dark about what individual(s) other that Brad are consulted on what maps will be left alone, added, or deleted from Restricted play.


Being fairly new/active in the community, Mike's point is a good one and not just regarding the map list mods. So forgive my ignorance on the SWM inner-workings but perhaps this matter could be explained, as I too feel largely in the dark.



Eh, I've pretty much already answered this question in this very thread regarding this particular matter.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 4:06 pm 
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I was asked how I felt about certain maps being removed, and told that certain top players had discussed it and felt comfortable with it. I went with that. It's a small step towards my plans for a more dynamic map list next year so removing or readding some later won't be a problem. If community demands it, I have no problem removing Cantina and readding Muunlist.

Honestly, 99% of the time asking ahead of time for results gets you none. I only get the discussions I need after the fact; I'm developing the map list that these after-the-fact discussions will be more valuable and not just bitching in the future.


If this is the post you were talking about it is vague at best. I get that people don't respond to you like you need them to, I just don't know what people you refer to and what forum you solicited for input. The "certain top players" discussion about map removal(s) could be a bit of problem as this seems to exclude any and everyone else but you and those players. If you only trust a small group of people, just let everyone know...if you want help from the community at large run a poll and solicit interest in playtesting of certain maps you want to include or exclude if you want the help. BP, as mentioned (by me and others) we are grateful for your work and simply want to help in the process if possible.


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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 5:26 pm 
Big Bad Brad
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WacoBlaze wrote:
If you only trust a small group of people, just let everyone know...if you want help from the community at large run a poll and solicit interest in playtesting of certain maps you want to include or exclude if you want the help. BP, as mentioned (by me and others) we are grateful for your work and simply want to help in the process if possible.


Honestly, I go as far as I need to, generally, whoever I have the most contact with and spiral outward depending on what kind of varied response I get. If the response isn't varied then or is emphatic enough one way or the other, I stop.

This was a rare case of player base approaching me after having a discussion and asking me how I felt about something rather than the other way around.

Does credibility play a part in it, sure, I think that's fair. Trust is irrelevant. This was a credible, which I described as "top", group of players, about 6 or 7 if I recall.

Now, as far as playtesting goes...at this point that really only needs to happen with newer maps, and having done so much work on it in the past it's become pretty streamlined for me, but I always welcome input. I may not always ask for it directly, but indirectly, anytime a new map is out I'm going to want it. Sometimes I go look for it (by watching games, listening etc) without really saying directly "I'm analyzing this for lists". Other times, I can play on a map once and tell that it's not restricted/or might be, then generally play on it a few more times to decide in one case if it's standard/open or in the other restricted/standard. Then I'll start spreading out my thoughts, which often times won't reach the ears of more than 6-7 people depending on who I'm in contact with and if there assessment agrees with mine or not.

So I guess if I had to put an order to anything I've reviewed it would be My brother in law Shawn, Eric, Jason, Bill, (kokomo or/and V-set team) and then general forums. I'll pretty much never start in open forums for pretty much the same reasons we don't design in open forums and for everything that's evident here.

In the end, I'm not going to force anyone into commitment because it doesn't work, but I don't want to exclude anyone from saying: "Hey btw, got this new map, hated/loved it because X,Y or Z"

Hell, even from the bitching here, I've gotten a couple ideas now, just to emphasize that there is a constant analysis of the community (tho indirectly by me). It's true that I don't play much anymore, in some instances I've tried to do that purposefully in the competitive scene so that I can better do take on this role for you guys and be as impartial as possible. That doesn't devalue my credibility though, as I haven't distanced myself from the game.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 5:43 pm 
Death Star Designers
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billiv15 wrote:
If you don't change the map list now (which is already done mind you), you will have same old, same old at Gencon.

I'll bring Jedi Temple and Yodabuck to the championship. Urbanjedi will bring double lancers and muun. Someone else will bring massive activation rebels and Chancelor's starship.

Its just not that interesting.

As for precedent, we did this exact thing 3 or 4 years ago. We limited the map choices in July down to like 6 legal maps. In earlier years, Gencon has had its own map list separate from the rest of the year entirely.

I'd rather have a 5-6 map list set for Gencon personally and have the event be entirely unique, but I'm not in charge of this (nor do I want to be).



Again, the issue wasn't what was changed. The issue is when it was changed. Now players have to leave behind the strategies they have built up over regionals and seen, tried out, tested, and altered to suite their style, and start again with 0 time to practice in a competitive setting. I could care less if you or Jason play the same thing again, why would that even matter in the slightest?

At the core of all this is how big of a deal is made about this being a "community ran game", and this comes out of left field and hits us by Brad making the choice by himself. Saying "top players" is too vague, who is that? What's wrong with simply saying something like "hey guys, I'd like some input into some changes into the map list." If no one responds, then sure, make the call. The game shouldn't be ran like that. If we truly are a "community ran game" then something like that should of happened.

I'm kinda just pissed at the whole thing. No community involvement, no warning, and changing the rules halfway into the most competitive time of the year for the game just sucks, and is utterly stupid IMO. WOTC isn't running this anymore, we can change things whenever we feel like it. My vote goes with Tim and Daniel. Move any changes like this till after gencon. The large amount of negative feedback should say more about this then anything I can say or type. Simply delaying it two months will make all this go away.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 6:02 pm 
Big Bad Brad
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Weeks wrote:

hits us by Brad making the choice by himself. Saying "top players" is too vague, who is that?


The first part, imo, completely invalidates everything you say. If you're not listening/readin what I have said then why bother with yours.

As to the second part, that's not my call, that's the players themselves who brought it to me. Personally, I'd prefer they stay silent because, I think, deep down it's more the fact that it wasn't "me".

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 6:08 pm 
Big Bad Brad
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Weeks wrote:
. The large amount of negative feedback should say more about this then anything I can say or type. Simply delaying it two months will make all this go away.


Large amount of what??? Oh, right, because you're so emphatic about it, your side must be the majority. Look back on the posters, it's pretty even by people, the complainers just keep posting. You got a couple that don't like it but haven't thrown their hat in either ring as well.

As to the last line....ehg, let's just say that disgust me to the point where this is the only response I'm going to give.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 6:38 pm 
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That's fine I don't expect nor crave an explanation. I do wish that in the future the community as a whole has more input.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 6:39 pm 
Big Bad Brad
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Weeks wrote:
That's fine I don't expect nor crave an explanation.



That's wierd since I've given one at least 3 times...

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 6:47 pm 
Death Star Designers
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The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
Weeks wrote:
That's fine I don't expect nor crave an explanation.



That's wierd since I've given one at least 3 times...



Whatever, just please the second statement to heart.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules update July 1, 2012
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 9:38 pm 
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Many of us (who are posting, at least) are going to be seeing each other face-to-face in about a month. We'll be drinking beers together and playing the game that we all enjoy. It seems to me like this conversation has run its course; both sides have made good points, and it seems to me that the different opinions have been articulated quite clearly.

Perhaps this is a discussion to pick up again after Gencon (map rotation is a promising concept, and perhaps the timing of Floor Rule updates could be something to consider as well), but the interest of keeping things more enjoyable at Gencon, I'd suggest that we put this baby to bed for now. It doesn't seem like anything will be gained by continuing.


Besides, with the removal of Jedi Temple and Muun, it means that my Ewok Swarm squad will stand a better chance of making the Top 8, so I'm happy with the changes! :lol:

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