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 Post subject: Re: Too much variety?
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2012 6:52 am 
Death Star Designers
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I think regarding lower level players losing interest, many have always lost interest at any point since the game was produced (save for the intitial few sets as everyone was on equal footing and had relatively few options to play). Since those early sets players have gotten steadily better and there are many levels of player. Some squads can let people at lower levels compete with those at the highest levels provided they have sound strategy and a few rolls go their way, and those are what they should hone when leading up to a tournament.

I know Daniel remembers the dude from GenCon last year running evading Loda. I talked to the dude after he had beaten my Mando squad (I finished 3rd with at the Michigan regional) and he actually had no local players in his area to play except maybe save for his son and fielded a squad I am confident that no one thought they'd see. He was very competitive with it and it was nice to see a player use an old squad that could still compete depending on skill and surprise in his matchups. Not too many GenCon's ago a player got a top 4 or at least 8 with a Gungan Cesta squad and I guarantee no one saw that coming. Good squad + practice, perserverance and skill should allow you to compete.

Audri was saying it was disheartening that she might have a hard time getting into the top 4 at a regional (Kokomo), but I would look at it as a chance to hone your skills and measure where and how you stand... it is hard to get a top 4 at any regional (it was our groups first time). I personally like playing players I rarely see and trust me, to me it is not so fun knowing what a great majority of the players might be running. I remember a GenCon a few years ago where it was hard to believe how many people had Gen. Dodonna in their squad. It was a real headache and you knew the game was going to devolve into a lengthy one at a time crawl, especially if you too were running him in able to compete (there was no way to stop it then). I personally do not miss those days and while each succeeding regional fleshes out what squads seem to be dominant at that time, there are always plenty of players playing variations on those squads or entirely different squads that people have honed and want to see how they fare.

Finally, if you sincerely want to test your skill level, play a recent top regional squad with the same map and so forth and see how you do against the field at a given event and against top competition. I would be bored doing this however and want to see how my squad I think is well tested and pretty good does against that same field. If I take a butt kicking I will realize that it obviously isn't as good as I'd thought and adjust accordingly depending on what factors were involved in that result, however if it does well I will be glad to know I play pretty well and have a squad that was like I had imagined it could be.


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 Post subject: Re: Too much variety?
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2012 7:15 am 
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Wow, I feel like a total scrub after everyone has responded to my post. First off let me clarify a few things. First off I don't think that if I clone squad "A" and play it at Kokomo that I'm magically going to become super player and waltz my way into a top 4. This game has way to good of players for that, and I'll be totally honest I'm way to prone to make the game ending play mistake to be that dilusional.

All I am trying to say is that in this wide open meta the classic way of playtesting and prepping for event is a lot harder now. Look at top squads, find answers.. play answers. Usually this is done with several squads. Here were looking at nearly infinite possibilities and the two "gatekeepers" are total opposites. So just saying for a bad player like myself the situation just gets a lot harder to deal with.

Overall the wide open meta is great and healthy for the game, just saying though in the big scheme of things it naturally favors the strong rather then the people still trying to become strong.

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 Post subject: Re: Too much variety?
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2012 8:23 am 
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I don't think the problem is to much variety, I think the problem is the rapid fire nature of new releases mixed with the lack of experience with them. We have what, 1,100 different minis at the moment. That means each new set that is released adds over 1100 different combination options. You need time to play around with at least some of them. But the V-sets keep pumping out new power pieces like they are going out of style. Every year we get brand new over powered minis to try to figure out how to beat or how best to utilize. I've played 5 games recently and I only knew/played with 1/4th of all the minis in the squads (including my own). I might not be the most active player but it is not like I haven't played the game in 2 years. I should at least know what the minis are and not have to look them all up then try to figure out how they work together.

Fortunately there are a couple fixes for this. First, we should bring back an league online. Make like 2-4 teams and have them rotate factions and have it last a longer time. More games=more experience for people and a higher likelihood of finding normal trends to try and plan for. Also, competition is fun. Second, slow down with the new v-set releases. We have had 7 new sets in the last 2 years (counting the newest v-set). WotC averaged 3 new sets a year because they were a company and they were trying to make money. Why are we trying to overtake their pace? Slow it down with the V-sets. 1-2 well tested sets a year is fine. Give people time to actually play with all the new minis. Give yourselves time to make sure we don't have any more "oops" pieces that break the game or any minis that are so limited in their use nobody will use them outside one squad. Its not like the v-sets have a grueling release schedule that needs to be met to make deadlines.

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 Post subject: Re: Too much variety?
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2012 12:29 pm 
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I feel that there are more factors at play here than just the squads. First I want to address losing lower players. Instead of doing competitive games every week, change it up. Every other week do something fun. Dynamic Dou, tiles was, Epic 500, or heaven forbid Utini. You can play 100 or 150 as well. When we had 8 to 12 people showing up at Lafayette, consistently that was what we were doing. Not everyone wants to play regional type squads every week. We also helped the losing players by teaching them tactics or walk through the game or points of the game where things could have swung there way if they would have attacked a different piece. That help make everyone better. Granted they have to be open to help.

The other thing that I am not sure anyone has mentioned yet is the number of people traveling from regional to regional. The first regional I went to was Cinnci the very first year of the regionals. Except for 4 or 5 players most of the 20 were from the Cinci play group. I went to Owensboro a few weeks later and the majority were from KY. Of the 20 or so player there were 4 or 5 that were not from the surrounding areas. What I am getting at is that the "really good" players were not raveling like they are now. The Atlanta crew is a great example of this. I think they did 4 regionals last year and are doing 4 or 5 this year. They are good players and they must enjoy each others company to ride in a car as long as they do together. We were doing a rough head count of players that we think might be at the Kokomo regional. It looks like the MI guys will be there. Some of the Chicago guys are going to be there. Kokomo, Lafayette, and Indy will be there. Danville and Owensboro are going to be there. I now here that one or two from NY and a few from ATL are going to show up. The level of competition there is going to be tough. I can't even begin to count the number of top 8 Gencon players will be playing. but it will be numerous. But while we all like to win, it is more than that to some of us. it is about the friendships and fellowship that we have playing a game that we find enjoyable.

You can't win every time and you only get better when you play the best.

I pretty much said my peace on the SHNN about the squads...

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 Post subject: Re: Too much variety?
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2012 1:04 pm 
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So instead of calling it a regional do we call it Gen Con preview 1?

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 Post subject: Re: Too much variety?
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2012 1:20 pm 
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Jedi_Master wrote:
Second, slow down with the new v-set releases. We have had 7 new sets in the last 2 years (counting the newest v-set). WotC averaged 3 new sets a year because they were a company and they were trying to make money. Why are we trying to overtake their pace? Slow it down with the V-sets. 1-2 well tested sets a year is fine. Give people time to actually play with all the new minis. Give yourselves time to make sure we don't have any more "oops" pieces that break the game or any minis that are so limited in their use nobody will use them outside one squad. Its not like the v-sets have a grueling release schedule that needs to be met to make deadlines.


I absolutely disagree. I dont know how many areas have weekly events but we do. That creates the situations where players play through the sets. If there isn't something shiny and new for players they get bored.

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 Post subject: Re: Too much variety?
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2012 1:37 pm 
Master of the Order
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Jedi_Master wrote:
We have what, 1,100 different minis at the moment.

Actually no - see me sig to see the real number we have.

Jedi_Master wrote:
That means each new set that is released adds over 1100 different combination options.

Your math is very far from correct here, but we understand your point.


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 Post subject: Re: Too much variety?
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2012 2:01 pm 
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Jake and I were just discussing the other day how this meta is baffling. Absolutely no clue on trying to guess it.

There has always been an element of "guessing" what people will play at a regional, and I happen to have been pretty successful over the years at it.

In 2009 everyone was GOWK crazy, and I figured out a near iron clad way to beat it (with a squad that could beat other stuff too!), and my Luke's Snowspeeder/Han Smuggler squad was rewarded with a regional win. That success coupled with GOWK getting his nuts clipped made the least variety in a GenCon ever. 7/8 top 8 were Rebel, winner being also rebel, but a counter to the snowspeeder.

2010 Kokomo had a number of squads and good players, but Rebel Push faired quite well for the second year in a row, along with some beefy republic. In the finals I was paired against Rebel Push, and my Stealth N Blue was no match for it.

Kokomo 2011 I switched it up and ran the lancer. Though there was attempts at counters, it prevailed

Everyone thought it was gonna be Lancer crazy at the Chicago Regionals last year, so I pulled out Stealth and Blue again to win that regional.

I knew nobody was going to top my activations (other than Jake) at Wisconsin Regionals, so I went with the Double Lancer with San vs the single lancer with more activations. That won me games that I might not have with the single lancer.

This year I played Jake's Vong squad at his urging and it was the right call. Nobody had an answer for it.



Anyway - anybody's guess is as good as mine as to what will be at Chicago, Kokomo, Atlanta, Wisconsin and Danville.



But one other point I will make is this: I (and many others) play to win at regionals. (With rare exception - last year at MI, I played a squad I knew was not tier 1, but I wanted to challenge myself after winning 3 regionals that year. Lesson learned, that sucked).

BUT - at other events - I am much more casual. When I came down to Danville - I brought a fun tier 2 squad, and I got stomped by Chris. He played well, and we both learned some things. I didn't bring in my monster squads to try and smash - I brought something that was out of my comfort zone, and was new and different. So that is on the more experienced players shoulders to find a balance there. I never let anyone win, but I will bring a squad I think isn't top tier.

Regionals - all bets are off.


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 Post subject: Re: Too much variety?
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2012 2:25 pm 
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TimmerB123 wrote:
Jedi_Master wrote:
We have what, 1,100 different minis at the moment.

Actually no - see me sig to see the real number we have.

Jedi_Master wrote:
That means each new set that is released adds over 1100 different combination options.

Your math is very far from correct here, but we understand your point.


I'm still getting over 900, remember 6 v-sets.

audrisampson wrote:
I absolutely disagree. I dont know how many areas have weekly events but we do. That creates the situations where players play through the sets. If there isn't something shiny and new for players they get bored.


Have you played a Sith squad recently? Old Republic? New Republic? Rebel? Vong? Mandalorian? Republic? Separatists? Imperial? How many different versions of each? Weekly is great, I do wish I played that often or had a group like that here to play with. Still, 52 squads a year when 180 minis a year come up I doubt even weekly is often enough to test them all. Not that all are worth testing and not all can be tested alone but it is still a load of minis to stack on the old existing list.

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 Post subject: Re: Too much variety?
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2012 2:39 pm 
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Jedi_Master wrote:

I'm still getting over 900, remember 6 v-sets.



6? There have been three (Destiny of the Force, Renegades and Rogues, and Vengeance) plus three mini-sets (Battle of Theed, Epic Set, Cantina Brawl). It might be more than 202 unique stat sets, but it certainly isn't more than 300.


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 Post subject: Re: Too much variety?
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2012 2:56 pm 
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UrbanShmi wrote:
Jedi_Master wrote:

I'm still getting over 900, remember 6 v-sets.



6? There have been three (Destiny of the Force, Renegades and Rogues, and Vengeance) plus three mini-sets (Battle of Theed, Epic Set, Cantina Brawl). It might be more than 202 unique stat sets, but it certainly isn't more than 300.


790 + 202

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 Post subject: Re: Too much variety?
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2012 3:00 pm 
Black Sun Thug
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I think I misunderstood your response. Tim's signature says it's over 900, as you pointed out. I thought you were saying you thought it was even higher than that (and you did originally put it at 1100).


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 Post subject: Re: Too much variety?
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2012 3:07 pm 
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UrbanShmi wrote:
I think I misunderstood your response. Tim's signature says it's over 900, as you pointed out. I thought you were saying you thought it was even higher than that (and you did originally put it at 1100).


over 1100 came from bloomilk's 1129 total. I didn't notice there were so effing many copies though :shooter:

Either way, still over 900 ^^

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 Post subject: Re: Too much variety?
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2012 3:13 pm 
Really Cool Alien from a Cantina
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I happen to agree that we are maybe releasing sets faster than would be ideal. Coming out with a bunch of pieces to fix glaring issues and craft the meta into decent shape, early on, was a good idea. Now that we appear to have gotten a meta that isn't RPS, isn't full of NPE squads, and that has options for every playstyle, I think we would be well-served to slow it down a little. Maybe do two sets every other year, one set every other year, something like that. Or maybe do one epic set every other year in lieu of a full set. I think that many people who have been involved with Scum and Villainy/Jedi vs. Sith would agree that a more deliberate approach to design and playtesting, as well as more time to do so, would have been a good thing. It's also getting harder to come up with new good ideas and new good people!

I'm not saying to put the brakes on, but reducing our "output" by 25% or so would not be a bad idea IMHO.

LESHIPPY wrote:
What I am getting at is that the "really good" players were not raveling like they are now. The Atlanta crew is a great example of this. I think they did 4 regionals last year and are doing 4 or 5 this year. They are good players and they must enjoy each others company to ride in a car as long as they do together.


You have no idea. Daniel recorded about 30 minutes of our conversation during the Jamestown trip last year and we're basically just cracking each other up nonstop. There's no way we would have driven 12 hours each way to the North Baltimore Suburb regional last year if we didn't have a lot of fun together.

One thing I was worried about last year was that people would start to get upset about ATL guys showing up. We drove to five regionals, won all of them, and took 16 of 20 top 4 spots (12 of 20 if you want to call Spry and David Team Carolinas). We almost always played diehard competitive squads, no one less than myself (even if Ricky's diehard squads usually looked like something he threw together on the way there). But that never happened. Everywhere we went people were friendly, gracious, cool to be around, and all-around fun. I'd like to think that they walked away thinking the same of us. I'm really grateful for that, because doing all of this wouldn't be any fun at all if no one wanted us around.

Anyway, I think the main effect traveling players has on the meta is to make it more hardcore, more competitive. Someone who drove 8 hours to your event isn't very likely to play something goofy, you know? Some people talk about "regional metas," which makes no sense to me at all. We're all on this website, reading about what won at other tournaments, trading thoughts about this piece or that squad, sharing ideas. It isn't about the "Atlanta meta" or the "Chicago meta" traveling to Owensboro or MI or Danforth and running up against whatever locals play. It's about whatever the best squads seem to be, that's what traveling players will bring.

And that's why people like me, Daniel, and Tim are throwing our arms up now. When we travel, we don't want to show up and get rolled. Right now, it's surprisingly hard to figure out how to make that not happen. If you come to a weekly game with something you think is neat and get blown out, oh well. If you spend a whole day and a bunch of gas money just to play minis, getting clownstomped really sucks.

Speaking of which, the Kokomo regional is starting to look freaking stout.

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 Post subject: Re: Too much variety?
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2012 5:56 pm 
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Jedi_Master wrote:
Have you played a Sith squad recently? Old Republic? New Republic? Rebel? Vong? Mandalorian? Republic? Separatists? Imperial? How many different versions of each? Weekly is great, I do wish I played that often or had a group like that here to play with. Still, 52 squads a year when 180 minis a year come up I doubt even weekly is often enough to test them all. Not that all are worth testing and not all can be tested alone but it is still a load of minis to stack on the old existing list.


Well its rather funny you ask me that. Yesturday I played an OR squad built around Mical and the Exile. I had a Belth Alusis squad put to together for the event but didn't feel good about it. The two weeks prior to that I played Sith. The first one built around Gloomwalkers, Dessel and Sidious Hologram the other built on Marka Ragnos and Darth Zannah. Before that was my attempt at a GOWK/Windu squad for possible regional use.. Oh at Owensboro I piloted Mandos and was probably one rediculously bone headed mistake from the top four. Now Ill be honest I dont own a single Vong, Imperial, or Seppy or Imperial piece that isnt from a Vset so I havent played them but all of them have been played locally just in the Month of May so I am seeing them.

With the huge set load there are some pieces I never get around to playing like Naomi Sunrider. However once Regionals and GenCon are over and Im not playtesting so hardcore I have plenty of time to get back around to them :) I would much rather struggle to keep up then be bored and feel like I played everything I want to.

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And that's why people like me, Daniel, and Tim are throwing our arms up now. When we travel, we don't want to show up and get rolled. Right now, it's surprisingly hard to figure out how to make that not happen. If you come to a weekly game with something you think is neat and get blown out, oh well. If you spend a whole day and a bunch of gas money just to play minis, getting clownstomped really sucks.


I think thats a given. I don't think anyone is asking you guys to scrub out. Actually I think that is one thing that is making this meta so messy. From the two regionals Ive attended so far and what I've read in the threads it seems like travelers generally out number the locals at an event. That has made the competition intense. Im no Daniel or Tim but Ill be damned if you think myself or the people who have traveled with attended either regional with the intention of filling out the lower half of the finishers. Take that and add 3 or 4 groups doing that you have some pretty intense players looking to do some intense gaming and create a really intense Meta.

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 Post subject: Re: Too much variety?
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2012 6:49 pm 
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shrug

I've scrubbed out sooooo many times when I've traveled, it just doesn't bother me. I guess it's your expectations. To me, winning is a perk. All that matters is that I play a very good game against an opponent and don't face the same squad 75% of the time. So I do like the variety.

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 Post subject: Re: Too much variety?
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2012 8:50 pm 
Really Cool Alien from a Cantina
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audrisampson wrote:
Im no Daniel or Tim but Ill be damned if you think myself or the people who have traveled with attended either regional with the intention of filling out the lower half of the finishers. Take that and add 3 or 4 groups doing that you have some pretty intense players looking to do some intense gaming and create a really intense Meta.


Exactly. Well put! Everyone would rather win than lose, and once you assume that X highly motivated tourists are going to show up gunning for the top, well, best get out the big guns to welcome them.

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 Post subject: Re: Too much variety?
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 4:08 am 
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Jedi_Master wrote:
UrbanShmi wrote:
Jedi_Master wrote:

I'm still getting over 900, remember 6 v-sets.



6? There have been three (Destiny of the Force, Renegades and Rogues, and Vengeance) plus three mini-sets (Battle of Theed, Epic Set, Cantina Brawl). It might be more than 202 unique stat sets, but it certainly isn't more than 300.


790 + 202



Jedi_Master wrote:
UrbanShmi wrote:
I think I misunderstood your response. Tim's signature says it's over 900, as you pointed out. I thought you were saying you thought it was even higher than that (and you did originally put it at 1100).


over 1100 came from bloomilk's 1129 total. I didn't notice there were so effing many copies though :shooter:

Either way, still over 900 ^^



Lol! I think we are all on the same page now. I don't think you 2 were around, or maybe you don't remember (or care) when I had huge rants about copies (or reprints, or rehash, or whatever you want to call them), and how much they sucked.

I always understood why people wanted more figs with different poses, I just never understood why they didn't want new stats to go along with them - as they did with the uniques. It's one thing I truly love about the v-sets - no more of that crap.

But I guess some would find that to be a problem, since that creates more sets of stats to factor in.


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 Post subject: Re: Too much variety?
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 6:44 am 
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LESHIPPY wrote:
But while we all like to win, it is more than that to some of us. It is about the friendships and fellowship that we have playing a game that we find enjoyable.


Spot on Les, this is the quintescencial double bull shot.

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 Post subject: Re: Too much variety?
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 10:25 am 
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greentime wrote:
I happen to agree that we are maybe releasing sets faster than would be ideal. Coming out with a bunch of pieces to fix glaring issues and craft the meta into decent shape, early on, was a good idea. Now that we appear to have gotten a meta that isn't RPS, isn't full of NPE squads, and that has options for every playstyle, I think we would be well-served to slow it down a little. Maybe do two sets every other year, one set every other year, something like that. Or maybe do one epic set every other year in lieu of a full set. I think that many people who have been involved with Scum and Villainy/Jedi vs. Sith would agree that a more deliberate approach to design and playtesting, as well as more time to do so, would have been a good thing. It's also getting harder to come up with new good ideas.


I have plenty of fresh good ideas, just ask Tim and Deri.

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