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SWM 2.0
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Author:  Grand Moff Boris [ Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:02 am ]
Post subject:  SWM 2.0

Just some thoughts on how I would make the game differently. Let's start with a base template Stormtrooper:

Quote:
Stormtrooper 5 pts.
5 Hit Points
16 Defense
+4 Attack
5 Damage


Next, let's look at his counterpart from the same set:
Quote:
Elite Stormtrooper 13 pts.
10 Hit Points
16 Defense
+8 Attack
10 Damage


So right off the bat, he has a slightly higher cost and a damage/hp base of 5 instead of 10. Now let's look at the best shooter from that set...

Quote:
Boba Fett 71 pts.
90 Hit Points
20 Defense
+12 Attack
15 Damage

Special Abilities
Unique. Double Attack
Accurate Shot
Bounty Hunter +4
Flight


So his HP actually goes up by comparison from 55 to 90, and he gets 15 damage instead of 10 (which right now is 20 on a base 10 system).

Next, let's look at a melee figure from the original set...

Quote:
Darth Vader, Sith Lord 44 pts.
100 Hit Points
23 Defense
+16 Attack
20 Damage

Special Abilities
Unique. Melee Attack. Triple Attack

Force Powers
Force 5
Lightsaber Sweep


That's right, a 16 point decrease in cost, but his HP is closer to 200 HP in 1.0 game terms. His damage also becomes the highest in the game, as it should be for that set.

Oh, and the standard point cost for a game would be 200 pts., which would have meant something like this:

Quote:
Boba Fett, Bounty Hunter 111 pts.
95 Hit Points
20 Defense
+12 Attack
20 Damage

Special Abilities
Unique. Twin Attack. Mobile Attack
Accurate Shot
Bounty Hunter +6
Disintegration
Evade
Flamethrower 10
Flight


and

Quote:
Darth Bane 60 pts.
125 Hit Points
21 Defense
+16 Attack
25 Damage

etc. etc. (Sorry I don't know all his stats.)


Essentially what you get there is Darth Bane at the top end of the point cost chain for melee and something like Boba Fett Bounty Hunter at the top end of the non-melee chain, more HP/damage numbers to work within, and a greater range of numbers for higher point cost games, with 200 as the standard and 300 as the slightly better option.

Author:  thereisnotry [ Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: SWM 2.0

By making it a base 5 game rather than a base 10, you're really not changing anything, since the character's HP scales with the change. It seems to me that what you're saying is that Boba should do 30dmg rather than 20, and that Vader should do 40, and that Bane should do 50dmg per attack, and that these main characters also have more hp.

Beyond that, I'm not sure I understand the difference between SWM 2.0 and SWM 1.0. Is there something in the game mechanics that would be different? Or would there just be more minis on the board?

Author:  Grand Moff Boris [ Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: SWM 2.0

My numbers scale is 3-199, rather than 3-115. HP integers of 5 allows me to scale the HP/damage ratio up and down as well, rather than have to have an odd number of HP to survive stupid crap like Lancer or Double/Twin Dash and Rex.

Sorry if I wasn't clear. I typed it in a hurry and will have more to say later.

I based the RS Boba on the existing version. Right now, it takes 6 hits with a 20 damage character to take him out. Under the new system, a Boba Fett can defeat another in 6 hits. Other characters, like the Elite Stormtrooper, require 10 shots instead. It's a lot more different than it appears.

Author:  Grand Moff Boris [ Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: SWM 2.0

Some other examples:

Quote:
Han Solo 32 pts.
45 Hit Points
17 Defense
+8 Attack
10 Damage

Special Abilities
Unique
Accurate Shot
Cunning Attack (+4 Attack and +5 Damage against an enemy that hasn't yet activated this round)

Force Powers
Force 1

Luke Skywalker, Jedi Knight 19 pts.
60 Hit Points
18 Defense
+10 Attack
10 Damage

Special Abilities
Unique. Melee Attack. Double Attack

Force Powers
Force 3
Force Leap
Lightsaber Sweep

Author:  Echo [ Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: SWM 2.0

Grand Moff Boris wrote:
My numbers scale is 3-199, rather than 3-115. HP integers of 5 allows me to scale the HP/damage ratio up and down as well, rather than have to have an odd number of HP to survive stupid crap like Lancer or Double/Twin Dash and Rex.


But you could change that HP/damage ratio with a system in integers of 10 also. What would the Lancer's Damage value be? 10? So now everything that you want to survive a Strafe requires 25 HP instead of 50 HP. That doesn't seem like a real change, more of just a shift. If the Lancer's damage were something like 15, things would need 35 HP.

The current game basically works such that damage ranges from 0 to 4x, where x=10, and HP ranges from x to 20x. Seems like all you're really doing is changing x to 5 instead of 10, and increasing the HP range to max at 30x. For example, why not just say you want Boba Fett to have 180 HP and do 30 damage?

Your point values might be different (3-199 instead of 3-115), but that's mostly arbitrary anyway. There's no real reason there can't be a 199 point piece in the current game, it's just an idea that's widely considered to be, well, bad.

Author:  Echo [ Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: SWM 2.0

Grand Moff Boris wrote:
Han Solo 32 pts.
45 Hit Points
17 Defense
+8 Attack
10 Damage

Special Abilities
Unique
Accurate Shot
Cunning Attack (+4 Attack and +5 Damage against an enemy that hasn't yet activated this round)

Force Powers
Force 1


In what way does this significantly differ from just giving Han 90 HP and increasing his cost?

Author:  Grand Moff Boris [ Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: SWM 2.0

Also with the scale differentiation, you are setting a distinction between melee and nonmelee. Shooters price range typically run from about 15 at the very low end up to 120ish, while melee figures might top out at 80 (think Lord Vader or GMLS). The Stormtrooper and its like would be the exception. A Twi'lek Scoundrel would never compete for pricing against an Aqualish Assassin or Mas Amedda (who would cost 22 in a 200 pt. standard).

Author:  Grand Moff Boris [ Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: SWM 2.0

Echo wrote:
In what way does this significantly differ from just giving Han 90 HP and increasing his cost?


The damage differential. Not everyone is attacking for 10, 20, 30, so different characters have to hit a different number of times. You can up the HP to 90 and it takes an Elite Stormtrooper the same number of times to hit him as it does Yoda or Mace Windu (barring damage bonuses, of course).

In this, it's different. Boba Fett will kill him faster than an Elite Stormtrooper or an opposing Luke will.

Author:  thereisnotry [ Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: SWM 2.0

Grand Moff Boris wrote:
Echo wrote:
In what way does this significantly differ from just giving Han 90 HP and increasing his cost?


The damage differential. Not everyone is attacking for 10, 20, 30, so different characters have to hit a different number of times. You can up the HP to 90 and it takes an Elite Stormtrooper the same number of times to hit him as it does Yoda or Mace Windu (barring damage bonuses, of course).

In this, it's different. Boba Fett will kill him faster than an Elite Stormtrooper or an opposing Luke will.

True, but you can do exactly the same thing on a base 10 system by changing Boba's dmg rating from 20 to 30. I think this is the question that we're asking: What is actually accomplished by the change to a base 5 system? As I mentioned before, the changes you're suggesting in the base 10 system would mean that Bane would do 50dmg per hit, while stormies continue to do 10, so the move to a base 5 system seems to change nothing. All that's different is that you're changing the damage-values and hp values of current pieces (making the game more unique-centered than it already is).

Author:  Sithborg [ Tue Mar 20, 2012 7:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: SWM 2.0

Changing to a base 5 Dam system essentially desecalates the rather insane damage boosts that are available currently. Boris has started out with the basics. The next step would be to redoing all the damage boosting stuff out there. Yes, it makes a bit more Unique heavy if he continues some of his other recostings, but that is a different issue.

Author:  thereisnotry [ Tue Mar 20, 2012 8:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: SWM 2.0

Does it?
Why couldn't the de-escalation be done in the base-10 system that we have? I'm not trying to be annoying, I'm just trying to understand the reasoning behind the change. From what I can understand, there is no true reason for the change to base-5, other than something new. I can totally understand the desire to de-escalate damage. However, the DDM system was base-5, and from what I understood of that, DDM was even more damage-crazy than SWM is (I say this as an example of the base-5 system doing nothing to slow down damage escalation).

In either case, I'd be interested to see how this shapes up. I've always liked the higher point games, and I like the fact that unique heroes do significantly more damage than grunts (ie, a shot from Boba does 3x as much damage as from a stormtrooper). It's never made sense that 2 hits from a generic jedi should be as powerful as 2 hits from a jedi master.

Author:  Grand Moff Boris [ Wed Mar 21, 2012 4:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: SWM 2.0

Let's be fair. DDM had problems that went well beyond damage escalation. First of all, WotC made the game (pause while the laughter dies down). But seriously, they never really tested anything outside of Magic and I think there is more than enough evidence to support that claim. Secondly, the rules mechanics of that game required damage escalation by default. The combos were unwieldly across multiple sets, and much like SWM, it was tough to play certain factions due to a lack of effort put into them. DDM minis were for the RPG and a handful were made to be played competitively in the skirmish game, and they made sure everyone could tell which was which.

Author:  thereisnotry [ Wed Mar 21, 2012 8:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: SWM 2.0

Ok, that's true...and I :lol:ed at the "WotC made the game" comment!
I'm not saying that DDM was bad because it was base-5...I'm just saying that being base-5 didn't seem to mitigate the damage escalation, that's all.

Anyway, I'm interested to see the rest of what you've got in the cooker, Dennis.

Author:  Grand Moff Boris [ Wed Mar 21, 2012 8:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: SWM 2.0

Oh I see. Well, I guess damage escalation isn't my primary focus with the concept. It's (firstly) about increasing the number ranges in as many areas as possible, and (secondly) about distinguishing between melee and nonmelee.

The way we do the second part now works, but it could be done in a way that doesn't force a slew of abilities to be tacked onto a character with the melee restriction just to give it a fighting chance. I would love to see something like:

Quote:
Jedi Knight 13 pts.
50 Hit Points
17 Defense
+6 Attack
10 Damage (on a 5-damage/HP scale)

Special Abilities
Melee Attack.

Force Powers
Force 2
Lightsaber Sweep



been playable in a standard 200 pt. game. Remember, if the pt. build standard started at 200 instead of 100, and everything was designed with that in mind, shooters could have been costed higher to accomplish similar results to what Rebel Storm offered while at the same time, allowing what I call "character differentials." "Character differentials" are characters with a different set of abilities at varying point costs, instead of everything in a 3-5 pt. range of that character getting compared to it. CS Aurra Sing would have cost somewhere around 64 pts. in the 200 pt. standard, instead of being on par point-wise with RS IG-88.

Author:  dreadtech [ Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: SWM 2.0

Well I too think SWM's should of had a base 5 damage system as well. Not sure if the Stormtrooper should have it though. Sure On the points and stats I see why Boris is saying 5 Damage instead of 10 especially when comparing the two versions as shown in post 1. However I would change cost and hit-points first given the type of weapon the stormtroopers carries.

I think Damage should go on the weapon the character carries, so something like this:
5 Damage for all melee characters that have knifes or swords.
10 Damage for all ranged characters who Have Blaster pistols
15 for all who have heavy blasters
20 for blaster rifles (OK this would probably put a Stormtroopers Damage higher, which is OK as long has he cost more)
25 for lightsabers.

OK this is far to much work to sort out all characters now but if we were starting from scratch and was planing the very first set this is how I would have done it. All cost points would naturally have changed to reflect the damage output for each character.

In addition to this I would also have change CE' so none were board-wide and non-unique could only help certain characters EG. A stormtroopers officer could only help stormtroopers and not other imperial characters such as snowtroopers.

However I do like and understand the basic idea here, I'm sure everyone would change the game in different ways, but having a 5 point damage system would have helped a lot.

someone mentioned 200 point games? This is just a number and could be 250 or 300 or whatever is necessary if characters cost more, not really seeing that as an issue here.

EDITED to add a comment on Stormtroopers costing more if Damage was higher

Author:  glasswalkerx [ Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: SWM 2.0

The D&D game was better then starwars minis. I liked the base 5 damage system, really created a bigger range between grunts and heroes. The combos have gotten just as out of control for SWminis, especially when u see chump Storm Troopers destroy Mace. There was never really a case of a goblin squad taking out Drizzt before he ever got to attack.

I like the idea and I am very curious to see what all you have in mind. On a side note, if you were starting from scratch, I would like to see different ranges. Maybe close combat, short, medium and long. A symbol could have been made and put on the card to show what the minis range was. I know that is just wishful thinking. :)

Author:  Azavander [ Sat Apr 07, 2012 11:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: SWM 2.0

I think swm 2.0 is a fantastic idea. Base 5 gives you more options of how you cost and build characters. What I would personally love to see is a cost of of everything cost of everything that maps out double cost x twin cost y. This could very by faction double may be cheaper in old republic, some other ability would be more expensive.

Like buying point ileitis that are not in your class in an RPGs.

Author:  Jedi_Master [ Mon Apr 09, 2012 9:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: SWM 2.0

Haha, nice to see I am not the only person making a completely new game out of the mini's. I have a 100 mini set that needs play testing but, far more importantly, I have a spreadsheet with each ability and how it should be cost.

Lets see, where is that attach file button...

PS: do forgive the extremely hap-hazard nature of the ability list. I wrote it as I thought of abilities for the characters in the set not in any real order. HP, attack, defense, and damage costs are on the bottom :P

PPS: Forgot an important note, base attack is 0 base defense is 11 (50% hit chance)

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