logo

All times are UTC - 6 hours

Mark forums read


Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 66 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: Re: 2012 SWMPGA Floor Rules
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:00 pm 
Master of the Order
Master of the Order
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 8:01 pm
Posts: 6662
Location: Chicago, IL
The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
DeathsBaine wrote:
Grand Moff Boris wrote:
Actually, it's not abusive. A judge at his or her discretion can award a 3 pt. win. If the player is landing tons of hits but they are getting swatted away, then the spirit of the game is satisified and a 3 pt. win is warranted.


Well, this completely goes against the 200 or 2 theory... but I guess it is up to each judge individually.

I, for one, am not saying that SSM is to overpowered now by any means, just saying like Timmer that I could see it going against the idea of completing matches in the allotted hour time span. As for what is coming out in the next vets, I hope they do help negate some of these situations so that there can be an errata-less set of floor rules, but from what I have seen so far I think this change may be a little premature.



I AM THE 200 or 2 JUDGE, and I am the guy who writes the floor rules. Do the math.


But you're not the one who said you would award a 3 point win if it came down to a character with SSM alone vs the other team attacking away.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: 2012 SWMPGA Floor Rules
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 7:45 am 
Master of the Order
Master of the Order
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 1:08 pm
Posts: 8394
The allowance for a judge to award a full win has been part of the floor rules ever since the 3-2 concept was created. I remember Dean and I talking about it at length weeks before the document was approved by WotC.

_________________
Click here to check out all the people who have realized the truth. Someday you will, too.

"I would really, really like to not have anything else happen at the end of the round other than things just ending." -- Sithborg


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: 2012 SWMPGA Floor Rules
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:16 pm 
Warmaster
Warmaster
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2008 2:35 pm
Posts: 677
Location: Danville IL
One thing that I have to admit that is urking me, is why doesn't the new floor rules kick in with the new set. Many of the members in the know keep saying V-set 3 has answers.. but it isn't out yet. On a local level I will have ran 4 events before Vset 3's official release date. Also you have the Lansing City champs before Vset 3's release. Just seems like an awkward time to implement the new rules based on what everyone is saying for why GOWK is allowed to be at full steam.

_________________
Winning a tournament always allows doing whatever is within the rules to win. - Billiv15


[===0=]=============>


Sentinel for Life!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: 2012 SWMPGA Floor Rules
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:21 pm 
Master of the Order
Master of the Order
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 1:08 pm
Posts: 8394
You're right about that one. We'll do better in the future to coordinate the timing.

_________________
Click here to check out all the people who have realized the truth. Someday you will, too.

"I would really, really like to not have anything else happen at the end of the round other than things just ending." -- Sithborg


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: 2012 SWMPGA Floor Rules
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 1:37 pm 
Big Bad Brad
Big Bad Brad
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 12:14 am
Posts: 5344
Grand Moff Boris wrote:
You're right about that one. We'll do better in the future to coordinate the timing.



No we won't. It's always been a January release with a possible August Update. I was shooting for the first, but had to check up on the updates from New Zealand and Michigan for the ranking system and tournament software.

V-Set three had zero to do with any changes I made in the floor rules.

It's the 15th, because I overshot the first, and the end of the month is absolutely unacceptable looking IMO. I realize I am a volunteer and most people wouldn't care if I was a month late, but I hold myself to a certain standard.

_________________
"200 or 2"
"Consistency is the key, not crying"


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: 2012 SWMPGA Floor Rules
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 1:48 pm 
Master of the Order
Master of the Order
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 1:08 pm
Posts: 8394
After giving it some thought, this was the right way to do it.

_________________
Click here to check out all the people who have realized the truth. Someday you will, too.

"I would really, really like to not have anything else happen at the end of the round other than things just ending." -- Sithborg


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: 2012 SWMPGA Floor Rules
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 1:50 pm 
Warmaster
Warmaster
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2008 2:35 pm
Posts: 677
Location: Danville IL
The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
Grand Moff Boris wrote:
You're right about that one. We'll do better in the future to coordinate the timing.



No we won't. It's always been a January release with a possible August Update. I was shooting for the first, but had to check up on the updates from New Zealand and Michigan for the ranking system and tournament software.

V-Set three had zero to do with any changes I made in the floor rules.

It's the 15th, because I overshot the first, and the end of the month is absolutely unacceptable looking IMO. I realize I am a volunteer and most people wouldn't care if I was a month late, but I hold myself to a certain standard.


I thought the SWMPGA was a group of players? Not to be a bitch but your sounding like your the be all end all in that statement.

_________________
Winning a tournament always allows doing whatever is within the rules to win. - Billiv15


[===0=]=============>


Sentinel for Life!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: 2012 SWMPGA Floor Rules
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 1:54 pm 
Master of the Order
Master of the Order
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 8:01 pm
Posts: 6662
Location: Chicago, IL
audrisampson wrote:
The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
Grand Moff Boris wrote:
You're right about that one. We'll do better in the future to coordinate the timing.



No we won't. It's always been a January release with a possible August Update. I was shooting for the first, but had to check up on the updates from New Zealand and Michigan for the ranking system and tournament software.

V-Set three had zero to do with any changes I made in the floor rules.

It's the 15th, because I overshot the first, and the end of the month is absolutely unacceptable looking IMO. I realize I am a volunteer and most people wouldn't care if I was a month late, but I hold myself to a certain standard.


I thought the SWMPGA was a group of players? Not to be a bitch but your sounding like your the be all end all in that statement.


I think it's safe to say that Brad does far more in this arena than anyone. Probably more than everyone else combined. And he does the final write-up, so he was the one specifically facing the deadline. I took his statement to show his determination to be held accountable for a deadline, not that he does whatever he wants.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: 2012 SWMPGA Floor Rules
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:01 pm 
Death Star Designers
Death Star Designers
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2009 8:57 pm
Posts: 3504
Yeah, I think you're misunderstanding Brad's comments a bit, although I can understand your confusion. All the changes that were made in these floor rules were presented to others in the SWMGPA (It's Star Wars Miniatures 'Gamers Player Association, not Star Wars Miniatures Pro Golf Association ;) ) to discuss and we all agreed on them. The deadline and timetable are things that Brad is solely responsible, but the actual changes were in fact discussed by the group (although Brad of course did all the leg work in getting them together and actually presenting the changes to be discussed). He doesn't make these changes in a vacuum, but he is responsible for the deadline.

Basically, Tim has it right. :)

_________________
"An elegant, easy-to-understand concept or mechanic that accomplishes 95% of what you want is much better than a clunky, obtuse mechanic that gets you 100%" - Rob Daviau

"You can't per aspera ad astra unless there's some aspera in front of your astra. And that means sometimes the aspera gets you." - Donald X. Vaccarino


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: 2012 SWMPGA Floor Rules
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:02 pm 
Big Bad Brad
Big Bad Brad
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 12:14 am
Posts: 5344
audrisampson wrote:
The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
Grand Moff Boris wrote:
You're right about that one. We'll do better in the future to coordinate the timing.



No we won't. It's always been a January release with a possible August Update. I was shooting for the first, but had to check up on the updates from New Zealand and Michigan for the ranking system and tournament software.

V-Set three had zero to do with any changes I made in the floor rules.

It's the 15th, because I overshot the first, and the end of the month is absolutely unacceptable looking IMO. I realize I am a volunteer and most people wouldn't care if I was a month late, but I hold myself to a certain standard.


I thought the SWMPGA was a group of players? Not to be a bitch but your sounding like your the be all end all in that statement.



Pretty much. Things don't work with multiple heads. When it comes to floor rules, it ends with me...big deal. That's not arrogance or me being a dick, it's simply the way things have to work. This thread is a fine example of that.

Every decision I make is backed by community input, research and support (though again, not 100%). I never make changes without running them by some of the SWMPGA. I validate every idea and piece of input and weigh them carefully, but yes in the end someone has to make a final decision.

It's because of all that, that I take this thread personally. Of course, people are entitled to their opinions and I respect that. It just seems that we have become so entitled to our opinions that we forget sometimes that we are trampling on someone else's work or opinions when we vehemently express them.

I realize you came (back) into the game a little late, but threads about these changes (asking for input) have been up both here and at gamers for months. They were meant to be places for input and playtests results; none of them went over a page in length. I welcome the help, when it's appropriate. I've never considered after the fact appropriate.

Again, realize you are the exception, most of the guys here on this thread complaining had ample opportunity. I know most of them will try to counter with "I didn't have time...players, etc etc." They say it every year, which once again, does nothing but trample on my effort. I teach, I raise 5 kids, I'll be fostering another. I'm actively involved with my church family and various veteran's organizations. I am the only member of this game in my community. I made it work, because (referencing paragraph one) it's my responsibility.

At least though, I know I have someone willing to help with this coming years playtests ;)

Edit: What Tim said...lol

_________________
"200 or 2"
"Consistency is the key, not crying"


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: 2012 SWMPGA Floor Rules
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:12 pm 
Master of the Order
Master of the Order
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 1:08 pm
Posts: 8394
It's also worth noting that to Brad's credit, he listens to other people's ideas about rules issues, just as much if not more so than others in his position have done in the past. Not every change is something he proposed, but he tested it out to see if it was a good idea or not. :)

_________________
Click here to check out all the people who have realized the truth. Someday you will, too.

"I would really, really like to not have anything else happen at the end of the round other than things just ending." -- Sithborg


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: 2012 SWMPGA Floor Rules
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:15 pm 
Warmaster
Warmaster
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2008 2:35 pm
Posts: 677
Location: Danville IL
The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:

Pretty much. Things don't work with multiple heads. When it comes to floor rules, it ends with me...big deal. That's not arrogance or me being a dick, it's simply the way things have to work. This thread is a fine example of that.

Every decision I make is backed by community input, research and support (though again, not 100%). I never make changes without running them by some of the SWMPGA. I validate every idea and piece of input and weigh them carefully, but yes in the end someone has to make a final decision.

It's because of all that, that I take this thread personally. Of course, people are entitled to their opinions and I respect that. It just seems that we have become so entitled to our opinions that we forget sometimes that we are trampling on someone else's work or opinions when we vehemently express them.

I realize you came (back) into the game a little late, but threads about these changes (asking for input) have been up both here and at gamers for months. They were meant to be places for input and playtests results; none of them went over a page in length. I welcome the help, when it's appropriate. I've never considered after the fact appropriate.

Again, realize you are the exception, most of the guys here on this thread complaining had ample opportunity. I know most of them will try to counter with "I didn't have time...players, etc etc." They say it every year, which once again, does nothing but trample on my effort. I teach, I raise 5 kids, I'll be fostering another. I'm actively involved with my church and family. I am the only member of this game in my community. I made it work, because (referencing paragraph one) it's my responsibility.


First of my apologies, I wasn't trying to be disrespectful. I didn't realize you were the "head of the council" per say.

Actually If it wasn't for my more scrubish area and playgroup I would be in total agreement with everyone's decision on the GOWK issue. The only reason is I bring up the change time frame is more often then not the answers have been for the correcting of GOWK "Vset 3 has an answer" Thats great and I love how on top of things the Vset designers are but I guess I'm the one who has to hear the bitching and moaning from my locals till they see this answer in the Vsets. In most games when there is a floor rule changes they more often then not happen at the release of a new set. Magic in paticular really changes things around their "core set" release for the year. If their is a big time issue with that, that I'm not seeing I apologize and I'm not trying to start any trouble.. just trying to get an understanding on how things are done now.

As far as your threads for player feedback on things, I will make sure I'm on top of them all and will try to assist ya on it :)

_________________
Winning a tournament always allows doing whatever is within the rules to win. - Billiv15


[===0=]=============>


Sentinel for Life!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: 2012 SWMPGA Floor Rules
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:33 pm 
Big Bad Brad
Big Bad Brad
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 12:14 am
Posts: 5344
audrisampson wrote:
The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:

Pretty much. Things don't work with multiple heads. When it comes to floor rules, it ends with me...big deal. That's not arrogance or me being a dick, it's simply the way things have to work. This thread is a fine example of that.

Every decision I make is backed by community input, research and support (though again, not 100%). I never make changes without running them by some of the SWMPGA. I validate every idea and piece of input and weigh them carefully, but yes in the end someone has to make a final decision.

It's because of all that, that I take this thread personally. Of course, people are entitled to their opinions and I respect that. It just seems that we have become so entitled to our opinions that we forget sometimes that we are trampling on someone else's work or opinions when we vehemently express them.

I realize you came (back) into the game a little late, but threads about these changes (asking for input) have been up both here and at gamers for months. They were meant to be places for input and playtests results; none of them went over a page in length. I welcome the help, when it's appropriate. I've never considered after the fact appropriate.

Again, realize you are the exception, most of the guys here on this thread complaining had ample opportunity. I know most of them will try to counter with "I didn't have time...players, etc etc." They say it every year, which once again, does nothing but trample on my effort. I teach, I raise 5 kids, I'll be fostering another. I'm actively involved with my church and family. I am the only member of this game in my community. I made it work, because (referencing paragraph one) it's my responsibility.


First of my apologies, I wasn't trying to be disrespectful. I didn't realize you were the "head of the council" per say.

Actually If it wasn't for my more scrubish area and playgroup I would be in total agreement with everyone's decision on the GOWK issue. The only reason is I bring up the change time frame is more often then not the answers have been for the correcting of GOWK "Vset 3 has an answer" Thats great and I love how on top of things the Vset designers are but I guess I'm the one who has to hear the bitching and moaning from my locals till they see this answer in the Vsets. In most games when there is a floor rule changes they more often then not happen at the release of a new set. Magic in paticular really changes things around their "core set" release for the year. If their is a big time issue with that, that I'm not seeing I apologize and I'm not trying to start any trouble.. just trying to get an understanding on how things are done now.

As far as your threads for player feedback on things, I will make sure I'm on top of them all and will try to assist ya on it :)



Sorry, I was trying to make it clear that you had no reason to apologize.

I don't get the V-set 3 has an answer thing. I'm part of V-set 3 and while it adds to the answer, that answer is already in place. Keep in mind that there is no magic answer either. This provides a little, that provides a little and the culmination of those things really prevent SSM from being as overpowered as it once was.

V-Set 3 is not a core set, so that's a major difference between us and Magic. Also, I'm not keen on dumping mass amounts of new information on people; new floor rules, new figures, new abilities etc etc. Sometimes, that may happen. I don't set release dates for the sets, but it is defeinately a reason for me to not purposely sync them

Lastly, these are tournament setting Floor rules primarily. They have to be "settled" in prior to the major tournament season of late February early March. January is a good fit for that.

_________________
"200 or 2"
"Consistency is the key, not crying"


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: 2012 SWMPGA Floor Rules
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:39 pm 
Master of the Order
Master of the Order
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 8:01 pm
Posts: 6662
Location: Chicago, IL
Anyone have a pic of Cantina Map (JC League Kit 3) XXX ?

I think it's the latest one that was only just released, and I don't have it yet.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: 2012 SWMPGA Floor Rules
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:45 pm 
Warmaster
Warmaster
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2008 2:35 pm
Posts: 677
Location: Danville IL
The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
audrisampson wrote:
The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:

Pretty much. Things don't work with multiple heads. When it comes to floor rules, it ends with me...big deal. That's not arrogance or me being a dick, it's simply the way things have to work. This thread is a fine example of that.

Every decision I make is backed by community input, research and support (though again, not 100%). I never make changes without running them by some of the SWMPGA. I validate every idea and piece of input and weigh them carefully, but yes in the end someone has to make a final decision.

It's because of all that, that I take this thread personally. Of course, people are entitled to their opinions and I respect that. It just seems that we have become so entitled to our opinions that we forget sometimes that we are trampling on someone else's work or opinions when we vehemently express them.

I realize you came (back) into the game a little late, but threads about these changes (asking for input) have been up both here and at gamers for months. They were meant to be places for input and playtests results; none of them went over a page in length. I welcome the help, when it's appropriate. I've never considered after the fact appropriate.

Again, realize you are the exception, most of the guys here on this thread complaining had ample opportunity. I know most of them will try to counter with "I didn't have time...players, etc etc." They say it every year, which once again, does nothing but trample on my effort. I teach, I raise 5 kids, I'll be fostering another. I'm actively involved with my church and family. I am the only member of this game in my community. I made it work, because (referencing paragraph one) it's my responsibility.


First of my apologies, I wasn't trying to be disrespectful. I didn't realize you were the "head of the council" per say.

Actually If it wasn't for my more scrubish area and playgroup I would be in total agreement with everyone's decision on the GOWK issue. The only reason is I bring up the change time frame is more often then not the answers have been for the correcting of GOWK "Vset 3 has an answer" Thats great and I love how on top of things the Vset designers are but I guess I'm the one who has to hear the bitching and moaning from my locals till they see this answer in the Vsets. In most games when there is a floor rule changes they more often then not happen at the release of a new set. Magic in paticular really changes things around their "core set" release for the year. If their is a big time issue with that, that I'm not seeing I apologize and I'm not trying to start any trouble.. just trying to get an understanding on how things are done now.

As far as your threads for player feedback on things, I will make sure I'm on top of them all and will try to assist ya on it :)



Sorry, I was trying to make it clear that you had no reason to apologize.

I don't get the V-set 3 has an answer thing. I'm part of V-set 3 and while it adds to the answer, that answer is already in place. Keep in mind that there is no magic answer either. This provides a little, that provides a little and the culmination of those things really prevent SSM from being as overpowered as it once was.

V-Set 3 is not a core set, so that's a major difference between us and Magic. Also, I'm not keen on dumping mass amounts of new information on people; new floor rules, new figures, new abilities etc etc. Sometimes, that may happen. I don't set release dates for the sets, but it is defeinately a reason for me to not purposely sync them

Lastly, these are tournament setting Floor rules primarily. They have to be "settled" in prior to the major tournament season of late February early March. January is a good fit for that.


Cool beans, I can understand your reasons with that. I guess my group and I tend to see things in a "Magic" sort of way. I'm still learning about all the changes in the game and how things are done since I've come back. So far so good from what I can see :)

_________________
Winning a tournament always allows doing whatever is within the rules to win. - Billiv15


[===0=]=============>


Sentinel for Life!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: 2012 SWMPGA Floor Rules
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 3:02 pm 
Imperial Dignitaries
Imperial Dignitaries

Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 12:17 pm
Posts: 5934
audrisampson wrote:
The only reason is I bring up the change time frame is more often then not the answers have been for the correcting of GOWK "Vset 3 has an answer" Thats great and I love how on top of things the Vset designers are but I guess I'm the one who has to hear the bitching and moaning from my locals till they see this answer in the Vsets. In most games when there is a floor rule changes they more often then not happen at the release of a new set.


There is quite a bit out there that competes with QWOK now. A twinning swarm of IG86s seems to work. Also anything that does direct damage is a way to hose him down. An OR Mira cannon with the Revachist thrown in might be a good trick too.
Heck, run up yoda buck swap in the new Mace and just start whacking away.

There are several was it can be done. So V-set 3 will not be the end all be all to deal with GOWK. It will just give folks more options at least from what I have seen. Then there is always v-set 4.....I wonder what those guys will come up with?

_________________
Really???....... DRINK


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: 2012 SWMPGA Floor Rules
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 3:47 pm 
Master of the Order
Master of the Order
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 1:08 pm
Posts: 8394
LESHIPPY wrote:
Then there is always v-set 4.....I wonder what those guys will come up with?


A bunch of junk from what I've seen. :P

_________________
Click here to check out all the people who have realized the truth. Someday you will, too.

"I would really, really like to not have anything else happen at the end of the round other than things just ending." -- Sithborg


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: 2012 SWMPGA Floor Rules
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 5:09 pm 
Imperial Dignitaries
Imperial Dignitaries

Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 12:17 pm
Posts: 5934
Grand Moff Boris wrote:
LESHIPPY wrote:
Then there is always v-set 4.....I wonder what those guys will come up with?


A bunch of junk from what I've seen. :P


Yeah they have a bunch of knuckleheads doing that set... i figure that a bunch of monkeys could come up with stuff just as good as those guy. now i am hungry for a banana. :lol:

_________________
Really???....... DRINK


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: 2012 SWMPGA Floor Rules
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 5:48 pm 
Master of the Order
Master of the Order
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 1:08 pm
Posts: 8394
I just had a banana. Hmm, coincidence?

_________________
Click here to check out all the people who have realized the truth. Someday you will, too.

"I would really, really like to not have anything else happen at the end of the round other than things just ending." -- Sithborg


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: 2012 SWMPGA Floor Rules
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 6:44 pm 
Moff Disra
Moff Disra

Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 1:06 pm
Posts: 1359
Location: Kalamazoo, MI
LESHIPPY wrote:
There is quite a bit out there that competes with QWOK now. A twinning swarm of IG86s seems to work.

Twin, doubling IG-86 would work to take down GOWK, but the issue is time. I'm not planning on playing that squad again just based on time. With 200 point games lasting 4-6 rounds, it's just not enough shots to finish him off. Games need to last 7-9 rounds for a real chance.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 66 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours

Mark forums read

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
Jedi Knights style by Scott Stubblefield