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 Post subject: FU Personal Thoughts
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 10:29 pm 
Imperial Dignitaries
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So, did quite a bit more looking at this set, now that we have it in hand. I'm more disappointed in the set than I started out being... back to being where I'd feared I'd be (kinda) during the lead up. However, my disappointment isn't really just "power creep"... rather, it is the sheer randomness of the set. Some pieces are just flat out insane (Yuke leaps to mind)... while others are total head-shakers (Gotal Assassin leaps to mind).

So I did some analysis and did my own personal assessment, based now on some play (not extensive play, mind you). Here is what my assessment came out to...

Game Changers
There are a few powers and models that will fundamentally change the game. I'm not saying this is inherently bad, but I think it was ill considered, particularly given our competitive maps. These include Force Push/Repulse, the Golan Turret, and the Camaasi Noble. In fact, I won my release tournament with a truly, TRULY pathetic squad (my rares were Ozzel and Leia) purely because I used the Noble to great effect, locking down a doorway against a KWS.

I also feel that the VERY generous use of Force Renewal significantly upped the power curve... (they doubled the number of models with Force Renewal from 10 to 21, and placed it on much less expensive models).

Quality Assessment
The thing that REALLY struck me after looking at the set was the wild variety in the set. As mentioned above, some figures are going to be likely referred to as "broken" soon, much as Boba BH. Yuke leaps immediately to mind as being one such. Additionally, there are a significant number of seriously "undercosted" models (in my opinion, of course, based largely on comparisons with other similar models). These include:

Kazdan Paratus - Off by probably 20% in my mind. At 66 he'd feel about right, given the fact that when used properly he'll generate his own point value in droids by turn 4.

Vader Unleashed - Yes, I know he's not the end-all, but he is about 5-8 points too cheap imho. FR + Dark Armor + Def23 + Grip 4 makes this pretty clearly true to me.

Luke + Yoda - Even at 70 he's a bargain. He's not a commander, like Revan, but he's simply ridiculous and game changing. I could see him at 80 easy.



Then on the flip side, you get the ones that are insanely OVERcosted, for no apparent reason. For instance:

Gotal Assassin - Compare with Storm Commando (admittedly one of the very best figures in the game) and it is just laughable. Yes, built in accurate is great.. but not at this price with this limited firepower. If he had Damage 20, he'd be viable (maybe even too cheap)... but with damage 10, he's a waste of points.

PROXY - Um... without getting powers, he's going to suck most of the time. Yes, you can pair him with Bane and get a double attacker for 30. Yes, you can pair him with Vader U and get him great D and Atk for a slight discount... but even then, not at that price with those limitations. He's at least 10 points too high for my money.

Overall Impressions
Overall I'm still happy enough... the sculpts are great in general, and there are plenty of viable troops that don't whack the game out... fun stuff like Rebel Troop Cart... Vanguard (powerful but balanced by fragility)... and the potentially nasty Evo Trooper (spendy, but has some serious firepower potential).

I will give credit where credit is due on one item... the MTB. He is probably the single greatest change to Meta from this, other than Push (which is meta only in that most of the tournament maps are highly... crappy).

Anyway, to all of you who were wrestling with me in discussions prior to release, I don't think either of us get to say "I told you so". There is some pretty significant upgrading (by design or otherwise) and I don't think there was any significant resurrection of old pieces that weren't often played. I do, however, think the set didn't destroy the game (not that I expected it to). I DO think that they added a level of complexity with the rules this time around that may begin to have negative impact if they aren't careful... push is a little too much of a tool for skilled players to just wipe the floor with unskilled ones. The "gap" just got much, much wider... and I'm not at all sure that's really great for our sport.

Anyway, feel free to flame or shoot away... just my thoughts anyway :)

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 10:39 pm 
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I'm still in wait and se mode. Still too early to see how much of a change the game changing pieces will have. I haven't even seen any of the new pieces in action outside of my release day sealed game yet.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 11:18 pm 
Really Cool Alien from a Cantina
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I agree with you 100%, there's nothing I can disagree with you on.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 5:18 am 
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There are stil plenty of minis I've yet to play, so I'm not going to throw around the word broken for anyone yet, and probably won't at all. I don't see any mini in any set as broken, broken combo's maybe, and yese there are weak and powerful minis, but that's part of the fun and variety.

Anyway, FU. It's great!
The new powers have opened up the game in a variety of ways and given it a breath of fresh air. I really don't think there is a 100% winning squad in the game at all now. Even Initiative control is open to any squad if you want it thanks to the Tactics Broker.

All in all FU is just what the game needed. 8)


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 6:36 am 
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The more I think about it, the more I'm starting to think the Golan is going to end up being *the* most game-changing figure from this set. It's going to be a real annoyance for alot of squads to face, and if you don't have Accurate Shot it'll be doubly annoying. A Golan. plus maybe even a repairer like Chewie RH, is really going to annoy all the people going for Stormie swarms (at least, the ones not running Veers).


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 10:03 am 
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Yuke isn't broken. He's powerful, but not broken. He has some very strong force abilities, but his force push replaces TURN, not attacks, so that use is very limited. His other force abilities are really good, but he cannot dish out damage alone easily. He can be killed by bane quite quickly. Any powerful anti-jedi beatstick will kill him. This includes: Bane, Kun, Vader JH, Shaak Ti JM ect. He cannot dish out damage with normal attacks, compared to other beatsticks in his point range. He will dish out more damage from reflect than he will from attacking. If you pair Yuke up with Han, Rogue, then that is a broken miniature, because you will win initative, provided you have some sort of recon.

I generally agree with you Kazdan and Vader assesment. They are good, but probably should cost a little more. They are reasonable for their cost, but should cost a little more. Kazdan is very easy to abuse, but if you bum rush him and kill him early in the game you shut down your opponent's squad, because most squads with him are designed around him. Vader is only really broken on Korriban, because of Thrawn and RS palpatine. You auto-win initative, than you get lightsaber throw against your opponent's entire squad. That is really bad.

Overall, I agree with you assesments, but not really Yuke.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 10:46 am 
Imperial Dignitaries
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On Yuke, yes Bane/Kun can beat him down. However, even Bane can get shut down by him potentially... He can simply outlast you throwing stuns at you and you WILL run dry on force eventually using it to reroll. With luck, Yuke will fall quickly to Bane. With luck on Yuke's side, he can definitely hang in there.

I do agree that for Yuke to be properly hideous, he needs the right support. Rogue helps a ton... more with Ackbar about.

The reason I think Yuke is broken is FR3 + MotF3. If he had FR3 and MotF2, I'd feel less strongly... but I've seen him in action, and unless you brought a beatstick specifically to deal with him, you're in a world of hurt. Threat of him alone will probably stop shooty armies cold... and that is disturbing. It is too early to say for sure how meta will change with him around, but I don't think I'm crazy when I think he will change the face of the game.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 11:04 am 
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I agree with you on most points, but some older figs did become playable, Chewy with 3PO, with Garm, he can run up to someone and do 60 dmg with momentum. But thats probably one of the only figures that was hardly competive at all but got brought back, despite that chewy RH is still a better choice. I agree that push/repulse is game breaking on any map with a pit. More reason why KMG should be banned. I am a bit disapinted with so many characters having renewal.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 1:59 pm 
Imperial Dignitaries
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I agree, ChewPO is far better now... and there are a couple of others. I just don't think as many got resurrected as I'd hoped. One of the big points folks were talking up prior to release was how we'd likely see a number of models brought back. I think that hasn't happened as much as I'd have liked. ChewPO got a boost and wasn't often played. Not many others fit that bill. Unfortunately several other major pieces got boosted as well (BobaBH really needed Kota... honest...).

And I agree with KMG... and frankly I'd include Bespin in that (because of huges). For my money, the single biggest thing WotC could do to help this game now is fix the damn competitive maps... create a set of "tournament maps" which are considered the legal tournament environment, for example. At my LGS, we've had SO much better games with JediCartographer's maps than with the standard maps.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 2:31 pm 
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Grambo wrote:
I agree, ChewPO is far better now... and there are a couple of others. I just don't think as many got resurrected as I'd hoped. One of the big points folks were talking up prior to release was how we'd likely see a number of models brought back. I think that hasn't happened as much as I'd have liked. ChewPO got a boost and wasn't often played. Not many others fit that bill. Unfortunately several other major pieces got boosted as well (BobaBH really needed Kota... honest...).

And I agree with KMG... and frankly I'd include Bespin in that (because of huges). For my money, the single biggest thing WotC could do to help this game now is fix the damn competitive maps... create a set of "tournament maps" which are considered the legal tournament environment, for example. At my LGS, we've had SO much better games with JediCartographer's maps than with the standard maps.


Honestly I think Revan gives Boba BH a bigger boost, cause of Revan's ce, boba could move away from a potential melee threat, which would make it impossible to base boba. I agree that a lot of WOTC's maps are horrible. I only like a few of the maps for tourneys. I've never played using JediCartographer's maps but they look great for tourneys. Definitely a lot better than most of WOTC's maps.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 6:54 pm 
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I think the Caamasi will be fairly unplayed except as reinforcements against a squad/map that is hyper-vulnerable to them.

The Golan is pretty neat, but has its own built in limitations that I think balance it fairly well.

I don't think having more Force Renewal changes much of anything in and of itself.

Push/Repulse into pits is not my favorite mechanic in the world for reasons you cover. I don't think it will have as much of an impact on the metagame. ("fun" gamers wanted this ability and they got it. Well, the truth is they'll be the ones suffering from being pushed into pits more than anyone else so live by the sword die by the sword.)

Revan/BobaBH is not the best use of his CE. You're just not generating much improvement with Boba hitting so great already, and having a stellar defense from the start and being so expensive. I think getting that boost on more mid-costed figures that actually need it will be optimal. Enforcer or Aurra strike me as stronger choices.

Luke & Yoda is the beast of the set. Clearly. I think he's still within the existing power-curve but he's right there near the top. One of the top figures in the game along with JWMs, Boba BH, DOOMBOT, and Thrawn (and I don't much mind this character being there given his central position in the story.) Whether his optimal squads put pressure on the metagame to shift will be interesting to watch develop.

Agree that this particular set doesn't resurrect as much as one might hope. But it still does make efforts in that direction so I can't count a slight positive in negative terms--it remains a good thing.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 7:00 pm 
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I think the character i am most disappointed in is the Rebel Marksman. Should have been Commando Marksman. 15 points seem a lot to me for what she gives. The troop cart comes a close second.

Still there are a lot of very nice characters in this set so the odd one that fails to impress is not to bad over 60 characters.

The best thing about this set is 15 new characters ( just a shame about the 3 Luke's and 2 Han's)

Here's waiting for the next set. :D

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 7:58 pm 
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^ Yeah, I would have liked to have gotten a Commando Marksman with Stealth. I always like it when smaller cliques within factions get a small boost. Oh well...


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 9:24 pm 
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I agree the Rebel Marksman is way overcosted, just make a side by side comparison to Sev.

Yuke is a beast. The winner of our release tourney had him and used him quite effectively (against me 1st game :( ). FR3 with MotF3 is ridiculous, although I'm thinking Ysalamiri will make Thrawn actually come out of hiding in the back with Mas now.

And if you look at my wotc sig, you'll see how many kills I've managed to make with my Caamasi nobles :D. Being able to attack without being attacked is fun. :D

I think there are some undercosted figs as well. I agree Vader is one, but I also think Juno is one as well.


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