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 Post subject: Re: Strategies for beating the Czulkang Lah/Tsavong Lah combo
PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 12:16 am 
Death Star Designers
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drkjedi35 wrote:
darthmaim wrote:
Can someone please explain why Flurry only allows the the extra attack as a melee attack? Thanks in advance :emperor:


Remember that Luke Skywalker, First of the New Order is a Melee figure. He has Twin Blaster 20 that replaces his normal attacks and allows him to make two non-melee attacks. It is not a SA that can be increased by any other SA. For this reason, additional attacks from Flurry Attack, Extra Attack, or any other SA or CE that affect Luke and grant more attacks must be Melee attacks.

However, if you are adjacent to Czulkang Lah you can use Twin Blaster 20 to avoid the Counterattack since they are not melee attacks. But any flurries will still be subject to Counterattack.


The bold part is wrong. Twin Blaster just cannot be used with Twin Attack. It replaces the printed stats, which can then be further modified (see Grievious's Blaster and Jedi Hunter), which is much different than the "one attack at +4 Atk" kind of stuff. Extra Attack cannot be used because Twin Blaster replaces attacks, which includes Extra. I'm assuming you are also using the printed stats, not the Twin Blaster stats on the Flurries. That is wrong, since Twin Blaster replaces the stats for the duration of the attacks, which Flurry takes place before it fully resolves (see resolving effects), so the stats are still replaced. And by that logic, the ability to make non-Melee attacks is still in effect. The timing of it makes sense to me, since this isn't just a bonus like Leia or Padme to 1 attack. Otherwise, Yoda couldn't use Ataru Style Mastery granted Twin with his Lightsaber Throw 3. It is something to think about for Flurry and Throw in the future, though.
If something has been ruled against intent, you may want to take the same rout Rob did: talk to someone about errata.

Scott, the proposal that never went anywhere was to have the definition of Flurry Attack modified to state: Whenever this character scores a critical hit, it may make 1 additional attack of the same type.

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 Post subject: Re: Strategies for beating the Czulkang Lah/Tsavong Lah combo
PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 9:29 am 
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Scott, you are the rules guy. This was asked right around the time of Gencon and was how it was ruled. I can't find the thread, but do see where it was discussed briefly in the Epic forums in the playtesting thread. I personally agree with the ruling. Any time you gain an extra attack (outside twin) I would think that it would be your normal attack at your normal attack rate plus bonus. So in Luke's case it would be Blaster (UTF for Flurry) make a regular (and twin) melee attack at your printed value, then Blaster Twin (UTF for another flurry) and then another regular (and twin) melee attack at your regular printed attack.

Basically along the same lines as why you can't combine fire on a "blaster" attack.

Maybe I am wrong, just how I process it.

There are no other ways that I can see to replicate this (except this specific case) that I can find. I have been looking for other examples or similar concepts.

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 Post subject: Re: Strategies for beating the Czulkang Lah/Tsavong Lah combo
PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 9:35 am 
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Sithborg wrote:
Grand Moff Boris wrote:
urbanjedi wrote:
When Luke uses twin blasters and UTF the flurry attack that is generated is a normal melee attack (not a blaster shot).


Something else that was supposed to be addressed in the glossary to prevent the confusion about switching between non-melee and melee but as usual the rules guys went with the standard interpretations and ignored designers' intents. Sigh.


Because the "Flurry is useless if you only have one legal target, which you kill with the crit" is much more intuitive with Flurry.

That said, I don't recall seeing that question, and I'm not entirely sure I would agree with that ruling. But then, the way the game handles changing of attack types has always been a headache. Why people want more of it, I don't know.


Poor wording on my part. I don't blame the "rules guys," I blame myself. In all the hustle and excitement of designing stuff, I feel like the biggest area that needs improvement is making sure design-intent issues get brought to you guys and right now they are not. We instead work within the rules. It was discussed - for like 5 seconds in the Luke thread - that Flurry should be revised to avoid the confusion of alternating between types of attacks. That's probably as far as it ever went.

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 Post subject: Re: Strategies for beating the Czulkang Lah/Tsavong Lah combo
PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 12:51 pm 
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urbanjedi wrote:
Scott, you are the rules guy. This was asked right around the time of Gencon and was how it was ruled. I can't find the thread, but do see where it was discussed briefly in the Epic forums in the playtesting thread. I personally agree with the ruling. Any time you gain an extra attack (outside twin) I would think that it would be your normal attack at your normal attack rate plus bonus. So in Luke's case it would be Blaster (UTF for Flurry) make a regular (and twin) melee attack at your printed value, then Blaster Twin (UTF for another flurry) and then another regular (and twin) melee attack at your regular printed attack.

Basically along the same lines as why you can't combine fire on a "blaster" attack.

Maybe I am wrong, just how I process it.

There are no other ways that I can see to replicate this (except this specific case) that I can find. I have been looking for other examples or similar concepts.

Why you can't combine fire is a completely seperate issue. If the timing of Flurry was different, I would be more liable to say otherwise. When the Blasters replace the Atk and Dam, it essentially becomes their printed Atk and Dam for the attack. Flurry happens before the attack ends, which is why the stats would still be replaced. If the stats are replaced, it stands to reason that the non-melee attack should as well. By your reasoning, Twin shouldn't work with Lightsaber Throw, which is not the case. I guess I don't see much difference between Flurry and Twin. Flurry has a lot more reasoning to be the same type, because of the timing.

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 Post subject: Re: Strategies for beating the Czulkang Lah/Tsavong Lah combo
PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 1:07 pm 
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Flavor wise (which is very important to me regardless of how others feel) its kind of silly to say, I shot you in the face! Now I'm gonna hit you with my lightsaber! Now I'm gonna shoot you again! Another shot to the face! etc.

Anyway, ANYTHING in a game can be justified by the rules, so to say "this makes perfect sense to me..." is insignificant. Ruleswise, it can make sense either way. It doesn't necessarily mean that one style or approach is better than another.

Somewhere down the line I can envision it becoming problematic kind of the way towing + strafe/gallop did when Rob elected to eliminate the combo but I may be getting ahead of myself.

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 Post subject: Re: Strategies for beating the Czulkang Lah/Tsavong Lah combo
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:49 am 
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Looks like Lah/Lah went 1 and 2 at Wampa Stompa. It looks like confirmation of what everyone thought - they are undoubtedly the best combo in Epic Duos. Not unbeatable, but in the hands of a good player - it would take outrageous luck to go down.

I think that seals the deal for me that I have no interest in Epic Duos.

Now the Epics outside of Duos, still hold a lot to be explored. I look forward to playing Epics with full squads.


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 Post subject: Re: Strategies for beating the Czulkang Lah/Tsavong Lah combo
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:53 am 
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TimmerB123 wrote:
Looks like Lah/Lah went 1 and 2 at Wampa Stompa. It looks like confirmation of what everyone thought - they are undoubtedly the best combo in Epic Duos. Not unbeatable, but in the hands of a good player - it would take outrageous luck to go down.

I think that seals the deal for me that I have no interest in Epic Duos.

Now the Epics outside of Duos, still hold a lot to be explored. I look forward to playing Epics with full squads.



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 Post subject: Re: Strategies for beating the Czulkang Lah/Tsavong Lah combo
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 10:17 am 
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The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
TimmerB123 wrote:
Looks like Lah/Lah went 1 and 2 at Wampa Stompa. It looks like confirmation of what everyone thought - they are undoubtedly the best combo in Epic Duos. Not unbeatable, but in the hands of a good player - it would take outrageous luck to go down.

I think that seals the deal for me that I have no interest in Epic Duos.

Now the Epics outside of Duos, still hold a lot to be explored. I look forward to playing Epics with full squads.



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None shall pass, the threshold is mine!


I guess I should say my opinion is all based on the CURRENT set of Epics. Future Epics could always shake things up


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 Post subject: Re: Strategies for beating the Czulkang Lah/Tsavong Lah combo
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 10:40 am 
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The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
TimmerB123 wrote:
Looks like Lah/Lah went 1 and 2 at Wampa Stompa. It looks like confirmation of what everyone thought - they are undoubtedly the best combo in Epic Duos. Not unbeatable, but in the hands of a good player - it would take outrageous luck to go down.

I think that seals the deal for me that I have no interest in Epic Duos.

Now the Epics outside of Duos, still hold a lot to be explored. I look forward to playing Epics with full squads.



The Ganner.

None shall pass, the threshold is mine!


So, when he would be defeated, the roof comes down killing everything on the board? :P


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