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 Post subject: Re: Epics
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 5:15 am 
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darthmaim wrote:
I started my comments on a positive note in saying that our group loves the Epic Format and we had a blast playing it. I'm sorry if I gave the impression that our group thinks Czulkang is unbeatable. I meant to conveyCzulkang is a very difficult match-up. As far as our gaming group at our lgs banning him Epic, is that we have decided that Czulkang is a little bit too powerful for our tastes and will probably win a majority of the time. Hey maybe the guys in my group are wrong, but that's the beauty of house rules and it's just our humble opinions. Yes, I know, you can tailor make your team to beat him ( 7-1 is a pretty darm good record at GenCon though, I think most would agree :) ) At any rate, I completely respect everyone's opinion in the community, and appreciate positive and polite feedback. Thanks guys!


A lot of design and playtesting time went into the balance of the Epic set. I think you can understand that therefore, if someone after a just a couple of weeks of club play suggests banning a figure even within their own group, that wouldn't be well received. These same players will go out and, even in a tournament level environment, play a squad they know is not tier 1 just because they enjoy playing it. Those players have endured over time accusations that they only care about winning, when in fact, the opposite is true. To be honest, I believe that winning is more important to people who are quick to ban figures from play in their local environments.

Don't get me wrong... I fully support WHATEVER it takes locally to keep our game alive and growing. I can see in certain circumstances where banning figures (Maybe temporarily) might be a good idea. In my own group we've suffered through those same issues of a certain player or squad winning all of the time. What we've done in those times is change the format for awhile to keep things fresh while discussing the winning streak as a group and come up with ways to snap it. That strategy has proven successful in that our mid level players are now capable of beating our top players from time to time.

Also, I think it takes arriving at a certain mindset that, no matter the level of competition, it is ultimately more about the enjoyment of the game and the challenge to become a better player. For me that meant this year that in the 1 regional I played in, I played Mandalorians. I was 1 of 2 players to play them in a field of 30. I went in with my eyes open... I had played Weeks and Echo on Vassal beforehand and saw the weaknesses of my squad. I went 3-2 and was in both losses until the final round. I had a great time and was happy with how I played.

Playing at a known... or PERCEIVED disadvantage can be a lot of fun and at the same time rewarding. I'd suggest not banning a figure you think is too powerful but maybe among the better 2 or 3 players agree not to play him and those 2 or 3 figure out ways or figures to counter him.

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 Post subject: Re: Epics
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 6:22 am 
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Epic format:

500 points
16 characters in the base squad, max. (Reinforcements and Reserves may break this number)
No more than 3 characters with a Commander Effect at the start of the game (some characters can gain Commander Effects, they count as followers at the start)
1 character must be "Epic"
In games played with Gambit, the gambit scoring zone is worth 25 points.

For 300 pts., I would reduce the act count to 12.

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 Post subject: Re: Epics
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 8:31 am 
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
Epic format:

500 points
16 characters in the base squad, max. (Reinforcements and Reserves may break this number)
No more than 3 characters with a Commander Effect at the start of the game (some characters can gain Commander Effects, they count as followers at the start)
1 character must be "Epic"
In games played with Gambit, the gambit scoring zone is worth 25 points.

For 300 pts., I would reduce the act count to 12.

I understand that you have to include 1 Epic, but you don't mention whether using 2 is allowed.
(probably most people wouldn't do that, but still...)

Just curious, because if it is allowed, I see potential for some really fun builds. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Epics
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 8:34 am 
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swinefeld wrote:
Grand Moff Boris wrote:
Epic format:

500 points
16 characters in the base squad, max. (Reinforcements and Reserves may break this number)
No more than 3 characters with a Commander Effect at the start of the game (some characters can gain Commander Effects, they count as followers at the start)
1 character must be "Epic"
In games played with Gambit, the gambit scoring zone is worth 25 points.

For 300 pts., I would reduce the act count to 12.

I understand that you have to include 1 Epic, but you don't mention whether using 2 is allowed.
(probably most people wouldn't do that, but still...)

Just curious, because if it is allowed, I see potential for some really fun builds. :)


You know, the plan is for 1, but honestly, try out the 2 and see how it goes.

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 Post subject: Re: Epics
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 8:43 am 
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billiv15 wrote:
swinefeld wrote:
I understand that you have to include 1 Epic, but you don't mention whether using 2 is allowed.
(probably most people wouldn't do that, but still...)

Just curious, because if it is allowed, I see potential for some really fun builds. :)


You know, the plan is for 1, but honestly, try out the 2 and see how it goes.


Alrighty then. I'll see what I can build and go from there. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Epics
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 9:11 am 
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Given that most factions only have 1 right now, I would say that there would be a limit of 1 epic per squad, but of course that is something that can always change. :)

By all means, test with 2. :D

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 Post subject: Re: Epics
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 10:08 am 
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
Given that most factions only have 1 right now, I would say that there would be a limit of 1 epic per squad, but of course that is something that can always change. :)

By all means, test with 2. :D


In the Minimanager, I labeled it as Epic Set 1 for a reason. :D

One could always toss in the Tarentetek for #2, not that it would be the best build choice by any means. Outside of Republic, I'm not too sure it will possible to build effectively with 2, but what the hell. Just having fun with it. 8-)


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 Post subject: Re: Epics
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 11:04 am 
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This sounds like ubber fun, I will have to try this in a couple of weeks

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 Post subject: Re: Epics
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 7:11 pm 
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There are some awesome combos out there in this format (and BTW, this format is my favorite SWM format by far!). Lord Hoth with Accurate Shooters is great. GMLS with Epic Mara (super synergy!) = so much fun. Epic Mace and Yobuck (no AoOs with Mace's CE!). Czulkang with Vong JHs (charging assault on those guys???!!!!). The concepts can be thru the roof in their effectiveness, and pretty crazy. I've always enjoyed the Epic SWM format, but it's twice as much fun now!

IMHO, this format isn't quite so much of a competitive format, but more of a "Wow, that squad was so cool!" format. I could see it becoming pretty competitive, but there are some combos which will quickly rise to the top (GGDAC with 5 lancers, for example).



And yeah, after playing Czulkang Lah (easy 4-0) in the Epic Duos tourney, I'm pretty sure that he'll win 75%+ of his matchups, unless he gets bad dice vs the Tarentatek or unless Mace or Luke get a lot of crit-luck when they attack him. My closest game was against a Mace/BobaMerc combo, and that was only because Boba kept winning init and using door tricks to stay away from Czulkang...until I won an init, and then it was all over.

Czulkang's 60-dmg Counterattack is tremendously powerful...and when you combine the synergy of his CE with Warmaster's CE, it's great: Warmaster charges in for 40dmg, and then Czulkang comes in for 90...and that's from 12 squares away, after which time the real fun begins. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Epics
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 7:23 pm 
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thereisnotry wrote:
I could see it becoming pretty competitive, but there are some combos which will quickly rise to the top (GGDAC with 5 lancers, for example).


How many people do you know who own 5 lancers?

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 Post subject: Re: Epics
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 11:59 pm 
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Disturbed1 wrote:
thereisnotry wrote:
I could see it becoming pretty competitive, but there are some combos which will quickly rise to the top (GGDAC with 5 lancers, for example).


How many people do you know who own 5 lancers?

Not many, but a lot of people have plenty of minis to use as proxies for Lancers. :P Besides, Vassal is where I have to play most of my games.

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 Post subject: Re: Epics
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 6:09 am 
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thereisnotry wrote:
IMHO, this format isn't quite so much of a competitive format, but more of a "Wow, that squad was so cool!" format. I could see it becoming pretty competitive, but there are some combos which will quickly rise to the top (GGDAC with 5 lancers, for example).


Well a Chulkang Lah and Warmaster Lah squad wouldn't care if it went up against a 5 lancers squad. They would be dead as soon as they touch Chulkang since if you twin attack, that is 2 opportunitys to counter attack, and any counter attack made by Lah, is death to a 50 HP lancer. And the fact that those pesky lancers will only be doing 10 dmg a hit most of the time to Chulkang Lah, they aren't really all that scary...to the vong at least. Chulkang could just march up to Grevious and take all those strafing runs and finish Grievous off quickly. The Lancers are pretty worthless at that point.

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 Post subject: Re: Epics
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 7:28 am 
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thereisnotry wrote:
Disturbed1 wrote:
thereisnotry wrote:
I could see it becoming pretty competitive, but there are some combos which will quickly rise to the top (GGDAC with 5 lancers, for example).


How many people do you know who own 5 lancers?

Not many, but a lot of people have plenty of minis to use as proxies for Lancers. :P Besides, Vassal is where I have to play most of my games.



A point for you, sir.

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 Post subject: Re: Epics
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 11:38 am 
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Disturbed1 wrote:
thereisnotry wrote:
I could see it becoming pretty competitive, but there are some combos which will quickly rise to the top (GGDAC with 5 lancers, for example).


How many people do you know who own 5 lancers?


I own 5... :oops:

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 Post subject: Re: Epics
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 12:04 pm 
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
Disturbed1 wrote:
thereisnotry wrote:
I could see it becoming pretty competitive, but there are some combos which will quickly rise to the top (GGDAC with 5 lancers, for example).


How many people do you know who own 5 lancers?


I own 5... :oops:


I find that . . . ironic. ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Epics
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 1:11 pm 
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What can I say? I wanted them for mass battle.

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 Post subject: Re: Epics
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 1:46 pm 
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
What can I say? I wanted them for mass battle.


I was hoping maybe you were working on a Star Wars Minis Death Race format. :P


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 Post subject: Re: Epics
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 8:59 pm 
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I own more than 5 (could probably play a 5 lancer squad and loan out a 5 lancer squad but maybe not anymore.

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 Post subject: Re: Epics
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 9:15 pm 
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ALso Bane should beat Lah almost every time (almost doesn't matter who he is paired with)

Run up within 6 and LS throw and SR2 and do 100 (80 after crabs Lah down to 150)

If you win init do it again and then run back (maybe out of range for Lah to get you) (so Lah down to 70 left) Then next turn do it again and it is over. (This would require maybe 1 turn of building force). Alternatively you could just hit him and absorb the counterattacks (he won't kill you unless he crits multiple times and you fail all your armor saves). This leaves a damaged (maybe even close to dead Bane plus your helper against the Warmaster. This is easy pickings.

If you lose init you take 90 (probably 70 with average shields to the face) and are down to 130. Even if Lah wins init he can't kill you (even if you fail all armor saves) and then you kill him with the same scenario as above. Pretty much any helper you have will be able to take out the warmaster and Bane shouldn't die.

What you need to realize is that you can't get into a djem-so battle with him unless you are sure you can kill him off (actually did this in a test game and Lah still didn't kill Bane because of the stupid orbalisks)

At Gencon I almost beat Lah with Teranterak (lost 2 key inits in a row) The first I would have won for sure and the second would have been very interesting depending on counterattack rolls.

Luke and Han have a decent time against Lah as they just shoot and whittle him down.
Mara/Jaina (or Luke) are solid against him.
MAce can smoke him easy if he rolls hot.
Vader depending on who he is with can beat him because of OF2
If you pair phantom Menace with Joruus it can be a tight game if you can keep failing your dominate save (in testing Menace would have smoked him but failed the key dominate save)

Really it just depends on if your partner is a shooter or not. A good shooter can whittle him down so that your epic can trade with LAh and then the warmaster can almost not win (ie no damage output). In testing we paired most of the epics with shooters (Cade BH, Boba BH, Boba Merc, Boba, MC, Cad Bane) and in many of those games with average rolling by both sides the shooter team smoked the vong. At Gencon it seems that many people were pairing with another melee dude and in most cases yeah Lah will win a decent amount of the time. Lah encompasses the Vongs strengths and weaknesses (ie good at melee and bad at shooting/shooting defense)

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 Post subject: Re: Epics
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 8:08 am 
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urbanjedi wrote:
ALso Bane should beat Lah almost every time (almost doesn't matter who he is paired with)

Run up within 6 and LS throw and SR2 and do 100 (80 after crabs Lah down to 150)

If you win init do it again and then run back (maybe out of range for Lah to get you) (so Lah down to 70 left) Then next turn do it again and it is over. (This would require maybe 1 turn of building force). Alternatively you could just hit him and absorb the counterattacks (he won't kill you unless he crits multiple times and you fail all your armor saves). This leaves a damaged (maybe even close to dead Bane plus your helper against the Warmaster. This is easy pickings.

If you lose init you take 90 (probably 70 with average shields to the face) and are down to 130. Even if Lah wins init he can't kill you (even if you fail all armor saves) and then you kill him with the same scenario as above. Pretty much any helper you have will be able to take out the warmaster and Bane shouldn't die.




If you are within 6 to lightsaber throw, you are within 12 to being charging assaulted by Lah for the 90 dmg. You only have a 50/50 chance to reduce damage, so don't count on it as working as often as VCA2. If Lah wins init next turn he will seriously hurt Bane and then Bane will try to hit him back or take a aoo, which will result in a twin attack. If you get into a a melee fight with Lah, you are toast. Counter Attack with Twin for 30 dmg a hit is much better thatn Djem so for 30 dmg on one hit. It will be a close battle, but its not easy by any means. In the end it really depends on init.

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