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 Post subject: Re: Winning the game (Proposed Gambit changes)
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 8:59 am 
Master of the Order
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AdmiralMotti89 wrote:
It didn't seem like many were saying it, but IF Lancers or Yobuck are a problem (and it sounds like that damned Yobuck Anistap garbage that I faced in 5 consecutive vassal games a year or two ago did well at Gencon this year), then maybe just a teency counter for strafe and gallop might be worth trying before changing things on a much bigger level with gambit.

Maybe an ability like:
Formational Logistics (Enemy characters using Strafe Attack or Galloping Attack are limited to attacking X characters per round on their Strafe Attack or Galloping Attack, where X equals 1/2 of the attacking character's Speed)

Or:

Non-unique allies who are defeated by an enemy using Strafe Attack or Galloping Attack may make one immediate attack at +2 attack against that enemy.


Or more movement stoppers, an ability that simply triggers upon being hit, save X. Could prohibit rerolls to keep it from being too heavy-handed. Hmm.


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 Post subject: Re: Winning the game (Proposed Gambit changes)
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 2:12 pm 
Death Star Designers
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AdmiralMotti89 wrote:
It didn't seem like many were saying it, but IF Lancers or Yobuck are a problem (and it sounds like that damned Yobuck Anistap garbage that I faced in 5 consecutive vassal games a year or two ago did well at Gencon this year), then maybe just a teency counter for strafe and gallop might be worth trying before changing things on a much bigger level with gambit.

Maybe an ability like:
Formational Logistics (Enemy characters using Strafe Attack or Galloping Attack are limited to attacking X characters per round on their Strafe Attack or Galloping Attack, where X equals 1/2 of the attacking character's Speed)

Or:

Non-unique allies who are defeated by an enemy using Strafe Attack or Galloping Attack may make one immediate attack at +2 attack against that enemy.


Anistap didnt do wel in champs. neither did lancer. The 3 yobuck squads tha made top 8 were all skybuck (2 with dash one with rex), and one lancer squad (double pawn lancer with grevious) The talk all year was san hill mtb lancer and solo charge, yet lancer didnt even make top 8 and the 2 solo charges lost first round of top 8.

Do you have any data to backup your proposal? A han in stormtrooper squad bea lancer not once, but twice in champs I dont see anybody talking about that.

I think motti that you just arent going to be talked out of your hate for galloping attack and strafe attack, and thats fine. If you dislike it that much check out what won gencon. Jedi Seer, battlemasters and bastilla. You take away swap and the lancers twin and the seer gets in free attacks while your jedi dont take a ton of damage geting from A to B.

If a squad without ANY movement can beat lancer and Skybuck I'm just lost at what it takes to convince you that gallop and strafe arent overpowered.

Put your scrubs in that back room, problem solved.

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 Post subject: Re: Winning the game (Proposed Gambit changes)
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 3:20 pm 
Master of the Order
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Didn't urbanjedi go top 8 with Double Lancer? I remember he beat Bill in the first round of the finals.

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 Post subject: Re: Winning the game (Proposed Gambit changes)
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 3:34 pm 
Death Star Designers
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Ya I mentioned him.

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 Post subject: Re: Winning the game (Proposed Gambit changes)
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 3:40 pm 
Master of the Order
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Weeks wrote:
The talk all year was san hill mtb lancer and solo charge, yet lancer didnt even make top 8 and the 2 solo charges lost first round of top 8.


(Emphasis added)

Quote:
Put your scrubs in that back room, problem solved.


Witticism aside, this is really not very helpful or appropriate.

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 Post subject: Re: Winning the game (Proposed Gambit changes)
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 3:46 pm 
Death Star Designers
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
Weeks wrote:
The talk all year was san hill mtb lancer and solo charge, yet lancer didnt even make top 8 and the 2 solo charges lost first round of top 8.


(Emphasis added)

Quote:
Put your scrubs in that back room, problem solved.


Witticism aside, this is really not very helpful or appropriate.



Maybe that came off a little harsh. That wasnt my intention. I beat bills yobuck by doing just that though. I put all my dudes yoda could kill in the back where he couldnt get to them. Bills yoda killed I think 3 things all game.

I should have said "San Hill single Lancer" didnt make the top 8. My bad.

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 Post subject: Re: Winning the game (Proposed Gambit changes)
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 5:08 pm 
Death Star Designers
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Weeks wrote:

Do you have any data to backup your proposal? A han in stormtrooper squad bea lancer not once, but twice in champs I dont see anybody talking about that.


What data for what proposal? Do I really need data to back up the statement that “IF Lancers or Yobuck are a problem then maybe just a teency counter for strafe and gallop might be worth trying before changing things on a much bigger level with gambit”?
I am saying that if A is a problem then it might be better to make one or two abilities that deal with A than completely changing the rules of the competitive game. Do you disagree?

You are the one making a claim; that Gallop and strafe are just fine. Where is *your* data? Where are your insightful analyses of the skirmishes involving Yobuck and Lancers?

Also, what exactly are the problems with those possible abilities or CEs I wrote up? Even if, let’s say, just after investigating the most superficial of evidence, that Lancers/Yobuck are objectively and decisively determined to be just fine. Even then, what damage do the abilities I wrote up do? Does it outweigh the benefits?

Weeks wrote:
I think motti that you just arent going to be talked out of your hate for galloping attack and strafe attack, and thats fine.


No one is talking about “hate” here but you. With the vehemence with which you came after my post, one might think I was the only person who considers that Yobuck/Lancer might be a problem.
Oh Wait:

Quote:
Racing around on my highest point cost piece with a pair of Lancers and your 24 act squad
while avoiding my characters that can actually counter your figure is (with the original proposal on page 1) no longer a threat to victory in the game. If you won't engage my Jedi Seer with your Lancer, then I still have a chance to win the game.
And IMO, given how out of spirit of the game the Lancer/swap squad concepts are (assuming the goal truly is equal opportunity for engagement)…


Quote:
wouldn't the 20-point back row gambit rule actually make extreme movement breakers even more significant to the meta than they already are, since it would be much easier for Swap or Lancer squads to get deep-strike gambit than it is for other types of squads

With 20 point back-area gambit:

Quote:
PLAY SLOWWWWWWW
get to gambit (thrawn/panaka/kybuck/lancer/heck even old school speeders)
win init and get out with the won init. At end of round put another guy in gambit
do this for 5-6 rounds and use up the whole time
Win on gambit when you didn't fire a single shot


Quote:
The fact Lancer is still the top dog and not something from DOTF says maybe that more things then just good game design need to change.


As you can see, whether we are talking about the game now, or the game after steps have been taken to address some of the problems that these posters see, the issue exists outside of just me. What’s curious is why you did not jump in to “point out” how perfectly fine lancers and Yobuck are until I posted.

Weeks wrote:
Put your scrubs in that back room, problem solved.


Rough day or something? Wow.

Anyways, it’s pretty clear that with pieces like Thrackan, Vader AOE, Poggle, Tusken Chief, and Celeste Morne, that swarms or “scrubs” are not being totally ignored and thrown in the “back room” by the design team. Why do you think they should be?


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 Post subject: Re: Winning the game (Proposed Gambit changes)
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 6:15 pm 
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Ok, I was coming off way too hard. I'm sorry.

Your proposal was giving death shots to pieces that get hit with gallop and strafe correct? Wouldnt that make gallop and strafe null and void cause people dont want their yobuck or lancer to die just for using their abilities? Yobuck and lancer have a purpose. That purpose is to keep high act activation control squads in check. If there is no yobuck or lancer whats going to stop the ~20-30 activation tempo squads from dominating?

Death shots are a tough thing to hand out cause your giving yourself an advantage by forcing your opponent to do what he has to do to try and win the game (Kill your dudes). Having something specificly made to screw yobuck and lancer really isnt nessesary. We have jedi reflexes in the game now, that ability alone is a good counter to lancer cause only 2 factions have it currently (OR, Rep).

Handing out anti-gallop/strafe stuff just doesnt sit right with me. If I'm playing one of those pieces I'm spending a ton of points to boost one character to attack with. Kybuck/Lancer are good for the meta because they keep the mouse droid dump in check. What if you made that ability and put it in fringe? whats to stop those high act squads from building that into their build? now they can get away with running those tons of cheap acts and still not worry about being attacked. What faction would you put anti gallop strafe into?

Every faction has a good antigallop strafe already built in, I'll list them.

OR - Jedi Seer, Bastilla. Seer attacks when you come near, bastilla nerfs ce's.
Rep - Speed, djem so. Republic can catch any squad and they have tons of anti-melee built in to all thier good pieces.
Seps - Speed, Tempo. Seps have the second highest speed in game, and their tempo control helps them get off their attacks without reprizal
Imperials - Swap, Various Darth Vaders. Vader is amazing against melee. if you gallop or strafe him your gonna take a ton of damage back while vader doesnt take a lot. Vader also has swap and MT to help him get rid of your dudes.
Rebels - Extra attacks, DIsruptive. Rebels get rid of yoda's swap and lancers twin. THey can easily BG their disruptive pieces trapping yoda deep in their territory. If yoda runs in and gets caught he doesnt run out due to the extra shots from leia/bothan.
NR - High damage phases, Disruptve. Same as above but NR does their damage in a single phase as opposed to rebels doing it over 2-3.
Vong. Nom Bombs. You hit them you take damage, easy to get.
Mandos. Death shots, cheap override.
Sith - Hard to kill quickly pieces, Anti melee, SPeed. Sith are fast and hard to kill. Gallop and strafe make a living on fast kills, when they can t get them they are at a disadvantage.


I'm against adding anything else that goes against Gallop and strafe. Same as im against adding more tempo control factions.

/Back on topic/ Are we going to make gambit /map changes in the janurary update?

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 Post subject: Re: Winning the game (Proposed Gambit changes)
PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 4:11 pm 
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Well put arguments on both sides. While our play group has banned lancer from ever seeing the light of day, yobuck is not that big of a concern since our republic player hasn't figured them out right yet. I still think it would be nice to find some middle ground and maybe create a fringe piece that has mines, preferably a large or huge but something affordable that people can bring in to protect against lancers. I just hate how you can strafe every piece on the board twice unless you build for it. Albeit it is very possible to beat lancer these days with all of weeks afformentioned pieces and techniques. It kind of takes out some ofthe in knowin you have to bring certain pieces everytime like revan, jaster, bastilla. Pehaps a 20 point fringe commander effect to give adjacent living allies deathshot? This would still allow mouse droids and battle droids (until you release the self destucting droid ce, come on... Peer pressure) to be mopped up, while still helping your scrub living armies have at least a shot back at the violent strafing teams. Or ban lancer haha just kidding I know that's a bad road to start down. I definitly think there's some middle ground here to tread.


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 Post subject: Re: Winning the game (Proposed Gambit changes)
PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 8:37 pm 
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GeneralGrievous wrote:
While our play group has banned lancer from ever seeing the light of day, yobuck is not that big of a concern since our republic player hasn't figured them out right yet.


I really don't like banning stuff. The first time I played Lancer, I got steamrolled, but I'm a bit better at facing it now - I really don't think it's overpowered at all. And as Weeks said above, the galloping/strafe pieces have an important role is stopping high-activation swarm squads from dominating. If everything is strong, then everything should be balanced.


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