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 Post subject: Championship top 8 time limit
PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 12:57 pm 
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There was talk of making the 3 rounds of the top 8 championships a 1.5 hour time limit.

This would be only for the 3 rounds on Sunday.

Reason being is that there is built in motivation to finish in under 1 hour in the Swiss rounds on Saturday, but then on Sunday there is no extra motivation.

Don't get me wrong - I am not wanting play to slow down. The same rulings should be used for slow play and stalling as always. But that being said - I think we all would want to see every game FINISH. Play it out and see what actually happens. In my experience, in the games that don't finish, they would finish in 15 more minutes.

Obviously we have to have SOME time limit to prevent major abuse, but my bet is if we made it 1.5 hours, then EVERY match would finish. I bet most rounds would end before that anyway, but it would be nice as a precaution.

I think if we did this, everyone in the top 8 would be happy to do it, and everyone would end up satisfied that all games finished to completion.

Win or lose, I know I for one have always wanted my games to be completely finished. Sometimes 1hr limits prevent that. This would prevent the worst case scenario of someone getting a points victory over someone else who could have won if the game were played to completion.

So was there finalization of that?


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 Post subject: Re: Championship top 8 time limit
PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 1:09 pm 
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Not that I think I will be in that group of 8, but I think that changing to 1.5 hours makes the game different than what will be played on Sat. in the Swiss rounds. I have (like most I would guess) had countless games that I have known I would win if time continued past the 1 hour limit, yet lost narrowly because time had expired. From a player that likes to see a game completed I am with you, but I think it totally changes what occurred in the earlier stage.


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 Post subject: Re: Championship top 8 time limit
PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 2:55 pm 
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I get what Waco is saying, but I say go to 1.5 hours for the Top 8. It would virtually guarantee that every game will finish, which is a good thing, and more importantly it would eliminate any incentive someone might have to gain an edge by seeing how far they can push the judges before a slow play warning is issued, and I think that trumps the "it's slightly different rules" concern. And it's not like this is unprecedented in other fields of competition--in baseball, because of the increased number of travel days per game played, teams generally use fewer pitchers in the playoffs than they used in the regular season, which does make for a slightly different set of strategies. See also penalty shootouts in soccer, etc.

Even if we decide that it's too late to institute this for 2011 (and I honestly don't see why it should be), I think it's a great idea for 2012.


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 Post subject: Re: Championship top 8 time limit
PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 3:26 pm 
Imperial Dignitaries
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Some other factors to think about in this regard:

1. 3 x 30 minutes = 90 minutes. That's a lot more time on Sunday for the spectators, the players, and those who are driving with the players. Some people have the flexibility for that extra time on Sunday, but some don't.
2. It is VERY late to be changing it for this year. I, personally, would love the change...but it's quite late.


Perhaps we might mention this possibility on Saturday morning during the beginning announcements, and then ask the Top-8 players on Saturday night (and every player would have a veto vote) if they would actually like to do it.



Or, perhaps we might just add 30 minutes to the FINALS match (and leave the first 2 Sunday morning games at 60 minutes). Fact: the finals matches always play more slowly than the other matches; even fastest players among us (ie, Bill, Deri) play more slowly in the Finals match than they do in regular games. Anyone who has played in the Finals (myself included) can easily tell you that the stakes are a LOT different in the Finals match than they are in the others. I wouldn't want to lose (or win) the Championship because I (or my opponent) made a mistake because I (or he/she) felt rushed. We want to see a fair and true result for the Finals match, so I think it at least makes sense to extend the length of the Finals match.

However, even if we wanted to do that, I think it would still be important to mention the possibility on Saturday morning and then have the Top-8 players vote on it Saturday night.

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 Post subject: Re: Championship top 8 time limit
PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 3:29 pm 
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My understanding is that the intent is to ASK the players in the championship round if they are okay with extending the time of the final match by 30 minutes. If either says no then it will NOT be changed.

What TINT says is at the core of the issue, and why the change has so many qualifiers to it, at least for this year. Next year may be a different story.

But heck, if I get my way the entire victory scoring system will be overhauled between now and then anyway. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Championship top 8 time limit
PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 4:13 pm 
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
But heck, if I get my way the entire victory scoring system will be overhauled between now and then anyway. :)


I am one that can be convinced...Bill has done it many times tis year already :D

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 Post subject: Re: Championship top 8 time limit
PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 5:42 pm 
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I'm not for this personally. I can see the argument for it though. I don't see how adding 30 minutes would help. If your good enough to make top 8 after a whole day of Swiss rounds at an hour you should be able to do it max 3 more times nervousness or not. Adding time only allows for slower play to happen.

Of your in top 8 your not getting a ton of 2 point wins anyway so your finishing those games in an hour. I'm just not convinced the extra 30 minutes is worth it.

Thats just my opinion.

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 Post subject: Re: Championship top 8 time limit
PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 6:16 pm 
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Weeks wrote:
I'm not for this personally. I can see the argument for it though. I don't see how adding 30 minutes would help. If your good enough to make top 8 after a whole day of Swiss rounds at an hour you should be able to do it max 3 more times nervousness or not. Adding time only allows for slower play to happen.

Of your in top 8 your not getting a ton of 2 point wins anyway so your finishing those games in an hour. I'm just not convinced the extra 30 minutes is worth it.

Thats just my opinion.

I agree.


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 Post subject: Re: Championship top 8 time limit
PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 11:49 pm 
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Weeks wrote:
I'm not for this personally. I can see the argument for it though. I don't see how adding 30 minutes would help. If your good enough to make top 8 after a whole day of Swiss rounds at an hour you should be able to do it max 3 more times nervousness or not. Adding time only allows for slower play to happen.

Of your in top 8 your not getting a ton of 2 point wins anyway so your finishing those games in an hour. I'm just not convinced the extra 30 minutes is worth it.

Thats just my opinion.


The problem is that it's a reality that you play slower in the championship game. Whether or not you think that the nervousness matters, it does. 4 people who have been there (Bill, Deri, Trevor, myself) have said this, and not a single person who has played in that game has disagreed. Top 8 games, especially the final game, are played slower. That is a (potentially unfortunate) fact. So the question is "Do we change something to make up for this obvious difference in play that will happen?", and I definitely think we should. The game is supposed to be played to completion. That's why a 1 hour time limit is used in the championship, while shorter time limits are used for other formats/situations; because 1 hour is enough time to play to completion. In the final match, 1 hour really is not enough time to play to completion, at least not at a level of play consistant with what has gotten the two players there.

There is a shorter time limit for Tile Wars because games can easily be finished in under an hour, there should be a longer time limit in the final game because it's a game that CAN'T be easily finished in one hour.

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 Post subject: Re: Championship top 8 time limit
PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 7:04 am 
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I totally agree that a game should be played to completion, however this is simply not the reality a great amount of the time or there would be no such thing as a 2 point win. I generally do not like the 1 hour time limit for any game for 200 and think it should be like 1.25 hours...but that is for another conversation on another day. There is nothing worse than finishing a game and being convinced that you spent 20 minutes or less of that time actually making your moves, rolls, etc. while the opponent took the other 2/3 of the time doing their moves, etc.


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 Post subject: Re: Championship top 8 time limit
PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 9:07 am 
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I think the one issue remaining that would make changing it this year problematic is that people already have established rides and schedules. Getting enough sleep for work the next day and keeping the spouse happy with your return time are intangibles that I don't think you should pressure people to ignore if their present plans for GenCon would have to be changed.

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 Post subject: Re: Championship top 8 time limit
PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 9:49 am 
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thereisnotry wrote:
Perhaps we might mention this possibility on Saturday morning during the beginning announcements, and then ask the Top-8 players on Saturday night (and every player would have a veto vote) if they would actually like to do it.


I think this is the way we should go. I do admit it's a bit late, but I don't think it should matter too much.

Being in the finals is not something anyone can plan for anyway. Regardless of how long it is, nobody can expect to be there. So it has always been the type of thing where if you are fortunate enough to be in that position, then you make time for it. Period. And if you drove down with someone else and they make it - you make time for them, or you shouldn't have driven down with them.

I can't fathom someone not being willing to spend an extra 90 minutes to be playing for the world championship.

And remember - it's 90 minutes MAX. Most likely it will be less than that.

As long as the organizers and judges agree (their time is spent here too) and the top 8 players, then I say we go for it.


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 Post subject: Re: Championship top 8 time limit
PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 10:47 am 
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Jim's point is important: life continues after Gencon (...at least, it does for MOST of us!).

That's why I think it's crucial that after the 6/7 rounds are completed on Saturday, there should be a brief meeting/discussion with the people involved in playing (and judging...thanks Tim!) on Sunday morning, and that each of those people should have a veto vote. If someone is on a really tight schedule, then I think we simply must respect that, especially since this would be a very late change. But if all the people directly involved are okay with it, then I also see no reason not to make the change (even if it's just for the Finals match and not for the 2 matches before that).

I also want to echo what Echo said: :D
Echo wrote:
The problem is that it's a reality that you play slower in the championship game. Whether or not you think that the nervousness matters, it does. 4 people who have been there (Bill, Deri, Trevor, myself) have said this, and not a single person who has played in that game has disagreed. Top 8 games, especially the final game, are played slower. That is a (potentially unfortunate) fact. So the question is "Do we change something to make up for this obvious difference in play that will happen?", and I definitely think we should. The game is supposed to be played to completion. That's why a 1 hour time limit is used in the championship, while shorter time limits are used for other formats/situations; because 1 hour is enough time to play to completion. In the final match, 1 hour really is not enough time to play to completion, at least not at a level of play consistant with what has gotten the two players there.

Whether it happens this year or not, I really do want to emphasize the value of adding extra time to the Top-8 matches next year.

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 Post subject: Re: Championship top 8 time limit
PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 8:29 am 
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If you add time to the top 8 matches this year or next it is changing the game that the other particpants that did not make the top 8 played the day(s) prior...(any 200 point game other than tile wars and Epic Duo). Make the time limit for all 200 point constructed games (minus tile wars and Epic Duo) an hour and fifteen or twenty minutes and it would make all games including the championship's final 8 the same with the same constraints and expectations (hopefully more finished games).


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 Post subject: Re: Championship top 8 time limit
PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 1:53 pm 
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WacoBlaze wrote:
If you add time to the top 8 matches this year or next it is changing the game that the other particpants that did not make the top 8 played the day(s) prior...(any 200 point game other than tile wars and Epic Duo). Make the time limit for all 200 point constructed games (minus tile wars and Epic Duo) an hour and fifteen or twenty minutes and it would make all games including the championship's final 8 the same with the same constraints and expectations (hopefully more finished games).


It is correct to identify that top 8 games are different than a regular swiss game, but you are incorrect in identifying the cause. There are two reasons top 8 games are already significantly different (and therefore best strategy is to play differently in them). The first is the nervousness/careful play that results. Single elimination and the stakes of the win slow people down, all players. PLayers who've never experienced it either first hand by playing in it, or second hand by watching friends, can have trouble understanding this, but it's true and you simply have to face it. The second, is more important in my opinion, and the straw that changed my own opinion on the length of finals matches. In swiss, there is the scoring system to deter intentional slow play. And while we have made great strides to deter it, in the finals it can and will happen in ways that we cannot control as a community and as judges. Think through this simple question carefully before you respond to me. Someone goes through swiss, and goes 5-1, with 3 2pt victories, and a slow play warning or two. The squad match up in a particular round clearly favors the other guy in a full time game (for example, playing 5 IG-86s vs New Republic), but because of the nature of that matchup, the other squad isn't going to have the lead early, and likely won't take it until close to the end. The guy with the IGs, can easily "slow" the game down to a 2pt win without causing a judges action. What's the consequence for that player? In swiss, at least the guy only gets 2pts. In the top 8 single elim, he/she advances to the next round. The game is already significantly different in top 8 play vs. Swiss. The idea with adding time is to get it more in line with Swiss play. 30 minutes actually does make a huge amount of difference in this. It's nearly impossible to slow a game to 90 minutes without one squad gaining a full win without incurring a judges wrath, unlike 60. Its so impossible, that I venture to suggest that it would never ever happen. And that's the point. In swiss, we use the 3-2 scoring system, and active judges to control slow play and encourage finishing games in time (and we've made great strides in it). In the top 8, we don't have the same kind of pressure, and as such, it doesn't happen nearly as often.

I'm pretty much in support of discussing it with the players on Sat night, and if that fails (totally ok if someone doesn't have the time), try again for the top 2 Champ game (again time can trump it). All you have to do to ensure it happens for the final game is to start the top 8 at 8:30AM instead of 9AM, and to me, there is nothing, nothing that says we cannot do that right here and now.

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 Post subject: Re: Championship top 8 time limit
PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 2:08 pm 
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billiv15 wrote:

I'm pretty much in support of discussing it with the players on Sat night, and if that fails (totally ok if someone doesn't have the time), try again for the top 2 Champ game (again time can trump it). All you have to do to ensure it happens for the final game is to start the top 8 at 8:30AM instead of 9AM, and to me, there is nothing, nothing that says we cannot do that right here and now.


I though the previously discussed plan had been ONLY the top two?

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 2:13 pm 
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The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
billiv15 wrote:

I'm pretty much in support of discussing it with the players on Sat night, and if that fails (totally ok if someone doesn't have the time), try again for the top 2 Champ game (again time can trump it). All you have to do to ensure it happens for the final game is to start the top 8 at 8:30AM instead of 9AM, and to me, there is nothing, nothing that says we cannot do that right here and now.


I though the previously discussed plan had been ONLY the top two?


That is correct. I'm simply adding what I was in favor of personally. I have no problem with expanding to the whole top 8 if we decided to do that based on a conversation with all of the participants Sat night.

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 Post subject: Re: Championship top 8 time limit
PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 9:15 pm 
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billiv15 wrote:
The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
billiv15 wrote:

I'm pretty much in support of discussing it with the players on Sat night, and if that fails (totally ok if someone doesn't have the time), try again for the top 2 Champ game (again time can trump it). All you have to do to ensure it happens for the final game is to start the top 8 at 8:30AM instead of 9AM, and to me, there is nothing, nothing that says we cannot do that right here and now.


I though the previously discussed plan had been ONLY the top two?


That is correct. I'm simply adding what I was in favor of personally. I have no problem with expanding to the whole top 8 if we decided to do that based on a conversation with all of the participants Sat night.



The points made for swiss vs top 8 finals (no 3/2 deterrent) would make it the same issue for quarterfinals - actual finals. So while I think the vote is the way to go on Sat night for all 8 players, it just seems like it's the same argument for all 8 vs the final 2.

I would love to talk about increasing time to 1:15 for all rounds next year, but that is another story.

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